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Archive through July 18, 1999Susan7-18-99  11:11 am
Archive through September 4, 1999Gary Mayo9-04-99  11:05 am
Archive through October 13, 1999Timo Karppi10-13-99  12:11 pm
Archive through October 18, 1999Bruce H10-18-99  7:18 pm
Archive through October 19, 1999Bruce H10-19-99  5:43 pm
Archive through October 24, 1999Timo K10-24-99  5:47 am
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Geneva
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timo: I would challenge you on your statement "If a JW accepts Christ, he or she is part of the Body of christ, regardless if he thinks that Jesus is not God." When we accept Jesus as Savior, we are acknowledging that he is God, Savior and Lord. Anything else from this is "another Jesus."
Timo K
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geneva, the FINISHED work at Calvary covers that JW lack of knowledge about Trinity. When we come to Christ, He will not throw us away regardless of our understanding of Him. If on the other hand we were accepted on the basis of our knowledge, then we are saved by works and not sola Cristo. In God's eyes, that JW-friend was accepted already 2000 years ago. When he accepts Jesus God counts him accepting the real Jesus. In my understanding we can't draw a line how much we must know about Jesus before He accepts us.
Susan
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timo, I would like to affirm what Colleen and Geneva have said. I agree 100%! First I would like to comment on your latest post and then I will address your previous one.
I will not go into great detail about the Holy Spirit. I'm sure others will give some great insight on this. But I disagree that the only purpose of the Holy Spirit is to "uplift Christ". Granted this is very important. But the bible speaks a great deal about the other roles of the Spirit. Look at John 16:5-16 v. 13"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." The disciples already had Jesus' salvation, what "truth" was Jesus speaking of. I take this to mean the spirit will guide the Christian in all areas of their walk, including truth as you study the word and doctrines. Perhaps the distinction should be made between doctrines of different denominations (baptism etc.) and the essential core doctrines of historic Christianity. These essentials of our faith must NEVER be compromised! Within the body of Christ there are many differences. But these essentials unite us and set us apart from the cults and other religions. That's why I believe that JW's, Mormons and other cult members are not saved. They preach another Jesus. John speaks out against heresy of this kind in 1John. This book was written to address the problem of Gnosticism, a philosopy that denied that Jesus was God incarnate, discounted the humanity of Jesus, and other heresies. 1John was also given as a testimony to the true Jesus (an eyewitness account, one of utmost credibility), and so that as believers in this TRUE Jesus as the ONLY way, we might have assurance of salvation. So I must strongly disagree with your statement that JW's are also part of the body. God gave us brains, it is crucial that we realize who Christ is to be saved and to be part of the body. We receive the Holy Spirit when we accept God's invitation of salvation through grace. It's really quite simple and clear cut. John was a black and white kind-of guy!
In response to your post on Sat., I don't think of the people in adventism as rotten. I believe their teachings are. I love the people, and I pray that the denomination will one day repent,and embrace truth. I don't apologize for criticizing EGW teachings. According to scripture we are to test all spirits and teachings, this is what we are COMMANDED to do. (I found an interesting article the other day called "EGW-Messenger or Medium?" at www.triumph.simplenet.com/egwhite.htm)
It sounds like you agree with me, that some of the Fudamentals of sda's are unbiblical. I must ask this question, why do they hold to these doctrines if they're unbiblical? And, aren't you contradicting yourself when you said you don't believe that the have many unbiblical doctrines? You've agreed with me on at least 4 of these. Just curious how many before you would label them as preaching another gospel?
Have you seen the video about adventism by Mark Martin? I highly recommend this! He also has a wonderful outreach to sda's at www.sdaoutreach.org.
Blessings!
Timo K
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, just read your last post. I don't have time to comment to more than one point. I agree that JW in general does not belong to the Body of Christ, only those that have accepted Christ. In the same way only those SDAs, Babtist, Lutherans, Pentacostalist etc, that have Jesus are the Body of Christ. Maybe I don't aiways make my points understandable, since English is not my native language.
Bruce H
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MORE COMPAIRSON OF BIBLE AND ELLEN WHITE, GOSPEL.

BIBLE - ROM. 2:16-21
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God
judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
17  But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon
the law and boast of your relation to God
18 and know his will and approve what is
excellent, because you are instructed in the law,
19 and if you are sure that you are a guide to
the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of
children, having in the law the embodiment of
knowledge and truth--
21 you then who teach others, will you not teach
yourself? While you preach against stealing, do
you steal?
1. WE ARE TO RELY ON CHRIST ALONE NOT THE LAW

EGW- The gospel without the law is inefficient and
powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect
whole.
1. GOSPEL WITHOUT LAW IS POWERLESS

EGW-The ethics of the gospel acknowledge no
standard but the perfection of the divine
character.
1. GOSPEL - PERFECTION OF THE DIVINE CHARACTER
(WOW ME, MYSELF AND I CAN DO THIS)

EGW-Thus both the law and the gospel are blended.
In no discourse are they to be divorced.--
1. LAW AND GOSPEL BLENDED

EGW- The gospel of health is to be firmly linked
with the ministry of the word. It is the Lord's
design that the restoring influence of health
reform shall be a part of the last great effort to
proclaim the gospel message.
1. GOSPEL IS HEALTH MESSAGE

EGW-Many have invented a gospel of their own in
the same manner as they have substituted a law of
their own for God's law. The gospel of Jesus
Christ gives full recognition to the law of God,
and declares the authority of God supreme.
1. GOSPEL GIVES FULL RECOGNITION TO THE LAW

EGW-The law and the gospel are so blended that the
truth cannot be presented as it is in Jesus,
without blending these subjects in perfect
agreement. The law is the gospel of Christ veiled;
the gospel of Jesus is nothing more or less than
the law defined, showing its far-reaching
principles.
1. LAW AND GOSPEL BLENDED
2. THE LAW IS THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST VEILED

BIBLE- ROM 10:4 4 For Christ is the end of the
law, that every one who has faith may be
justified.
1. CHRIST IS END OF LAW

BIBLE- ROM 4:15 15 For the law brings wrath, but
where there is no law there is no transgression.
1. WHERE NO LAW NO TRANSGRESSION

BIBLE- ROM 5:13 13 sin indeed was in the world
before the law was given, but sin is not counted
where there is no law.
1. SIN NOT COUNTED WHERE THERE IS NO LAW

BIBLE-ROM 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God
has been manifested apart from law,
1. RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD APART FROM THE LAW.

BIBLE- GAL 3:25 25 But now that faith has come, we
are no longer under the supervision of the law.
1. WITH FAITH NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW

BIBLE- GAL 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit
you are not under the law.
1. IF LED BY SPIRIT NOT UNDER LAW

BIBLE- EPH 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law
of commandments and ordinances, that he might
create in himself one new man in place of the two,
so making peace,
1. CHRIST ABOLISHES LAW IF WE ACCEPT HIM
2. CHRIST AND YOU, ONE NEW MAN IN PLACE OF TWO

BIBLE- COL 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body
of flesh by his death, in order to present you
holy and blameless and irreproachable before him,
1. BY HIS DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND BLAMELESS

BIBLE- ROM 7: 6 But now we are discharged from the
law, dead to that which held us captive, so that
we serve not under the old written code but in the
new life of the Spirit.
1. WE ARE DISCHARGED FORM THE LAW BY FAITH

EGW-They repeated the two great maxims, that the
law is a transcript of the divine perfections, and
that a man who does not love the law does not love
the gospel; for the law,
as well as the gospel, is a mirror reflecting the
true character of God.
1. THE LAW AND GOSPEL IS A MIRROR OF TRUE
CHARACTER OF GOD.

EGW-Medical missionary work is the pioneer work.
It is to be connected with the gospel ministry. It
is the gospel in practice, the gospel practically
carried out
1. MEDICAL WORK IS GOSPEL CARRIED OUT


SUMMARY
THE BIBLE GOSPEL

1. WE ARE TO RELY ON CHRIST ALONE NOT THE LAW
1. CHRIST IS END OF LAW
1. WHERE NO LAW NO TRANSGRESSION
1. SIN NOT COUNTED WHERE THERE IS NO LAW
1. RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD APART FROM THE LAW.
1. WITH FAITH NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW
1. IF LED BY SPIRIT NOT UNDER LAW
1. CHRIST ABOLISHES LAW IF WE ACCEPT HIM
2. CHRIST AND YOU, ONE NEW MAN IN PLACE OF TWO
1. BY HIS DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND BLAMELESS
1. WE ARE DISCHARGED FORM THE LAW BY FAITH

ELLEN WHITE GOSPEL

1. GOSPEL WITHOUT LAW IS POWERLESS
1. GOSPEL - PERFECTION OF THE DIVINE CHARACTER
1. LAW AND GOSPEL BLENDED
1. GOSPEL IS HEALTH MESSAGE
1. GOSPEL GIVES FULL RECOGNITION TO THE LAW
1. LAW AND GOSPEL BLENDED
2. THE LAW IS THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST VEILED
1. THE LAW AND GOSPEL IS A MIRROR OF TRUE
CHARACTER OF GOD.
1. MEDICAL WORK IS GOSPEL CARRIED OUT

BH
Susan
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timo, I understand your language barrier. My husband's 1st language isn't english either. It's really evident that you love Christ. And often you sound very evangelical. I just question you to make sure I am properly understanding. I know I can come across a bit harsh, I want you to know I'm praying for you as well as all those who are connected with this website. And I apologize if I have ever said anything that sounds offensive. Please don't take what I say as a personal attack, this is never what I intend. I don't apologize for my views about advetism though.
Anyway, I was headed to the computer because I was doing my bible study and just came to some verses I felt lead to share. 1John 2:20-27 they address much of what we've been discussing.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son. No One who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us-even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing (Holy Spirit) teaches you about ALL things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in Him" This verse tells us the Holy Spirit/Anointing teaches us in all things. Something else that stood out to me is that If you deny that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah you are the antichrist. Therefore groups that tamper with the nature of Christ are liars and have nothing to do with the holy nature of God almighty.
Timo K
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 1999 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, came back from Finish clubhouse, where the Finish Pentacostal church had a sing and praise worship. Nobody has been harsh on me in this site. Did I give you that impression? I only was on my way to the sing-along and in hurry. I am writing in two finish websites also and this site is the most polite site of all. Please continue to be critical, that's the way this kind of discussion works best. I like to be critical also, because constructive critics work best to get the truth.

At the moment my biggest problem is that not all who accept Jesus are themselves accepted by Jesus. If a JW accepts Jesus according to Susan, he has first to have right understanding of the Trinity. Am I right, do you mean it?

I like to ask you, Susan, how much the people of Israel needed to know about God in order to be saved in Egypt from the killings of first-borns?

In one sence Blood is for God only to see "when I SEE the Blood I will pass". Even those Egyptians, that put blood to the doors where saved.

Whenever some-one accepts Jesus GOD SEES THE BLOOD. If a cultic JW-friend accepts Jesus God still sees the blood. This is GOOD NEWS UNLIMITED.
More another day. God richly bless you and all on the site.
Lynn W
Posted on Monday, October 25, 1999 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"when I SEE the Blood I will pass".
Timo, that's the whole point, we must recieve Christ AND HIM CRUCIFIED. In other words, it's not enough to believe in the person of Jesus Christ, we must believe that He died for the remission of our sins; that it was HIS BLOOD that made the atonement for us. That's how His blood is "applied to our doorposts." Remember, it was not enough for the Hebrew slaves to take the lamb into their homes, they had to apply the blood.
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, October 25, 1999 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your nameÖ?" then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

It is not enough to acknowledge Jesus. Many say they accept Jesus as a great prophet and teacher. It is only through accepting him as our God and receiving the Holy Spirit as a sign and seal of our acceptance that we join the body of believers. To acknowledge him but say he is not God is not accepting him. It's accepting a counterfeit or a lie.

In Adventism I saw Jesus sort-of as a ticket to heaven. I couldn't get in without accepting him, but I could also accept him and still not get in (sort-of like a ticket to a game. I need a ticket to get in, but I can hold a ticket and still not attend.)

Jesus is not a lucky talisman: you acknowledge him, whoever you think he is, and he'll magically admit you to eternity. Jesus is the Son of God, and he wants an intimate relationship with us. We cannot be intimate with a God we do not believe is God.

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