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Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2000 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lowell,

You're probably the umpteenth person who's hailed me with "Hey Jude!" Was that a Beetles song? Or just John Lennon's? Anyway, great tune.

I've been away for awhile, so am just now responding to your post. Glad you were able to re-post your wiped-out message. I've had that happen to me too.

Thanks for your story. How interesting that your heart left Adventism at the point when the union conference president caved to racism. That shows an integrity all too rare among Adventist young people. And it only goes downhill as they get older and more immersed in the cult. I feel, if they don't leave while in college or shortly thereafter, they may never. After that, only a divorce, an internecene battle, a firing from a church-payroll job, or some such other major trauma is needed to break the spell of darkness and self-deception.

Speaking of my generation, I was an undergraduate student at Andrews University when the righteousness-by-faith "scandal" -- I use word advisedly -- hit. I suspect I was on the cusp of the transition from "works or hellfire" to what you accurately term "lip-service grace."

"Lip-service grace" is what I believe Morrie Venden and his legions of so-called "Evangelical Adventists" believe. Not all, of course, and we can't tell on a case-by-case basis who is a "lip-service grace" person, who is "costly grace" person. Or still a hit-'em-in-the-gut "works or hellfire" person, for that matter.

I love your statement, "What an astounding
experience it was to be teaching from the Bible,
just the Bible, without Ellen looking over my
shoulder."

And your pastor's advice -- "Lowell, for pity's sake, quit thinking works. It's grace, man; get with it" -- captures the spirit of the sun of righteousness dawning on our Adventist "dark night of the soul."

Also, I think his comment that you had "helped him understand what the early Christian Jews were going through when they first accepted Christ" should give us more insight into what our fellow SDAs who haven't seen the light are feeling and thinking. It's too easy to write them off. It's very hard to understand them and work for their salvation rather than trying to prove they're damned. And very difficult not to give in to the tendency to "hurt them" because "they hurt me." They are vengeful feelings, they are not "of faith," and therefore they are of sin.

I know you see this point because of your statement, "I also want to make it clear that I truly love the Adventist people. I would be ecstatic to see every Adventist on earth in the Kingdom of Heaven. It has been very important to me to learn that one can hate a religious system without hating the people involved with it."

It's something with which we have to struggle, and if we're not struggling with loving our "Adventist friends," something is seriously wrong with US, and not just with them!

I hate to answer your questions about the <Deleted> forum and the alleged saboteur. I visited that site and saw what people were saying, such as, "Shut the **** up!" And from that, I know it wasn't just a single "saboteur," but quite a number of persons involved. It's too easy to just scapegoat a single person. I feel sorry for <Deleted>, the webmaster, since he is responsible for "keeping it clean," so to speak.

I don't know what the reporter meant when she said that one person was sabotaging a whole website. I think she meant that metaphorically, not electronically.

You're right to write to me here, Lowell, rather than private e-mail, because I almost never answer private email unless it's from a person to whom I personally gave my address. I have reasons for this precaution.

Thanks again for your testimony, Lowell,

And God bless you too,

Jude
Lowell
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2000 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Jude, et. al.,
What has happened to "Mindless Adventism"? It has
simply disappeared from the electronic face of the
earth. I had thought there was something wrong
with my system, but I've tried to access it from
three different computers. Anybody know what
happened?

Jude, thanks much for the return message. Just a
little aside on one of your comments--again,
autobiographical: When I was 11 years old, I
became the youngest ham radio operator in the
state of California, a title I enjoyed for all of
five weeks, when some smart-aleck 10-year-old beat
me out. The mentor who taught me the Morse Code,
and who walked me through all of the electronics
theory was none other than W6KTK himself, Pastor
Morrie Venden. He was my Pathfinder leader. Yes,
we can disagree, but still love. Believe me, as a
person, the man is a gem.

God be with your ministry.

Lowell
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2000 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell,

I went to

http://earth.beseen.com/guestbook/a/139385/guestbook.html
and searched for "Mindless Adventism." I found it, but when I clicked on it, I found a website that informed me that the e-page I was looking for could not be found.

I suggest you try and see how you do.

I notice that Gary Mayo is the one whose name was beside the click-on-bar. So you might try contacting him for further directions.
Farmdog
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2000 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many names do you think Paul or Peter published under? I ask this because I know some of you in this forum (and other forums)publish under several or even many different names. We all have our reasons. I changed my name here because I was attacked by people claiming to be Christians who acted like vicious wolves. I was hounded, slandered, even asailed at my home, and my name was damaged. I fear some are using several names not to protect, but to wage war.


I urge you all to be careful, because few things are as they seem on the net. Be careful, trust no one you do not see face to face. Never give out real information about yourself in chat rooms like this and NEVER give out your phone number!
Gary Mayo
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2000 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell and everyone: Hello! I am told my name was mentioned here. In reading the above posts, I see my site is down. It will most likely pop back up on it's own and if not, I will fix it. Gary
Gary Mayo
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2000 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell: The Mindless Adventism site is up again. I do not know what happened, but the site was wipped out, so I created a mirror site with the same short address

http://www.go.to/sdacult

You may also want to know about our other site

http://www.get.to/the.truth
Gary Mayo
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2000 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oops:

http://www.get.to/the.truth
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2000 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gary, one question: Are you Farmdog?
Allenette
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2000 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell: the above few posts answered my weekend email question to you!! I really thought you were DESCRIBING another website rather than NAMING it! LOL...when I asked if you were referring to the aToday discussion forum (which HAD crashed this weekend BTW) it was because some of us CAN get pretty mindless over there, altho in mostly good fun. :-) Humor in SDA, what a concept.

So....to quote Rosanne Rosannadanna (or was it Emily Litile)......never mind :-)
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2000 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Farmdog,

Are you the same person as "GM" who on Friday, February 11, 2000 posted on the discussion titled, "The Law: What Does That Mean?" posted the following remark?

"Rayna: You are correct, very good; but don't let your freedoms lead you full circle to lawlessness."

If so, I'd like to know what's going on.

Jude
Allenette
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2000 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude: I know Rayna. What freedoms she has aint gonna work against her no how, no way. :-) As with most people who end up in/out of SDA, if they were good, loving people before, they will probably still be afterwards.

Their (not necessarily hers)life perspectives may get warped for awhile, but good people are good people, no matter WHAT club/cult/org/denom/hell they may visit for awhile. Even those of us who were born into, raised up in, got out of :-), at least on HERE, have proven to be fairly resilient humans who can get on with it :-)
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2000 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Allenetteóyou're right. I suspect, but cannot state for sure, that Jude's question was not so much directed to Rayna as to GM.

BTW, "Farmdog" said we should trust no one on the net; things are not always as they seem. That's good advice in general. He speaks as if he has first-hand reason to know!
Gary Mayo
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

J the O: Your questions are poignant, but not directly answerable at this time. I will tell you that my middle name is Lee, and I live in the country with a Great Dane named Farnim, if those clues help you. I used to preach that everyone should post under his/her own name, I even posted my telephone number in Web sites, forum pages and E-mail. I now know better. I was spiritually raped and left to die by people I trusted on the net, one of those people posts here, from time to time and claims to be a Christian. I no longer trust people I can not see face to face.

This is who I am: I am the husband of one wife (17 years), a business man in several communities, volunteer my free time to several charitable clubs, sponsor two lovely children through Christian Childrenís Fund, and operate an extensive web ministry (the SDA Historical Society http://get.to/the.truth) to teach people about the Adventism cult. I studied for the SDA ministry twenty years ago, when I was told by my teachers that I asked far too many questions. I was denied critical classes, like Greek, because they did not like my questions, nor have answers for them.

I am the person who is charged (slandered) in this forum of sabotaging <Deleted>'s forum, and you are correct, no one person is responsible for the mess going on there. I made my apologies to <Deleted> and his merry band that follow him in his chat room, and most people accepted that at face value, but some people do not forgive and forget. Few people accept responcibility for their own actions, prefering to cast blame on others. I still pop in from time to time at <Deleted>ís forum to warn others that wolves are sometimes dressed as sheep, and I have given that warning here also, and shall again. Jesus is the center of my blessed hope, and I trust totally in him. I do not trust what I cannot see.

This is a new ministry you have here, and I wish this place all the best blessings. One piece of advice I have for the site administrators is to place a net of tight security around all aspects of this site. This includes changing pass words to all points of entry several times a month. My sites have been hit many times, again so this week. You folks are doing a wonderful job in teaching the truth.

I am controversial at <Deleted>ís site because of the Sabbath issue. <Deleted> is a Sabbath keeper, and he wants that to show throughout his site, including his forum page. I have been very vocal about the Sabbath issue there, and that has cause tension. The very people that say they understand the correct nature of the Sabbath at <Deleted>ís forum page, support his theology in keeping the Sabbath. My thoughts on the Sabbath are simple: The shadow detracts from the reality, which is Christ. If you stand in the shadow as a witness, you take away from his perfect gift. Sunday is also not the correct and only day to worship God. Hebrews tell us that God has prepared another day for us to rest and worship God, and that day is TODAY!.

Another fallacy that is taught in <Deleted>ís forum page is that satan is not real, and cannot harm or influence Christians. This is not true. satan is alive and well, and working overtime to invite as many as possible to partake in a party thrown in his honor at the end of this age. I have other plans for that night, and I cannot attend: I will be with the Lamb of God that evening, Lord willing. Thanks for listening to "my side of the story".
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Allenette and Colleen,

You are both right. I responded to Rayna's original post with this one (which I copied and am pasting below) in case you missed it. Especially note paragraph 3, Allenette, and you'll see how closely you and I agree.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By Jude the Obscure on Friday, February 11, 2000 - 05:30 pm:

Rayna,

Great post! You're studying Luther's commentary on Galatians! I studied that in seminary. In my opinion, that and his commentary on Romans are two of the greatest works of theology in existence. They burst onto the legalistic, hypocritical, pharisaical scene like Monet's Impressionist paintings did on the hide-bound European artistic scene of his time. Or like Einstein's theory of relativity did on the moribund scientific scene of his time. Only more so! Much more so!

What power is there! How it makes one want to get into a time machine and go back and hear his "I cannot and I will not recant" speech before the church inquisitors, knowing full well the instruments of torture and death that lay behind their narrowed eyes and compressed lips.

And by the way, I'm not the slightest bit worried that you, as a result of studying Luther, are in the slightest danger of going "full circle to lawlessness."

The gospel is not to be feared and distrusted. Freedom in Christ is not to be feared and distrusted. Both are to be embraced -- not with caution and reserve and worry -- but with broad smiles and wide open arms and tears running down the cheeks.

It is in fact, if Paul is to be believed (in Romans) the ONLY way to AVOID lawlessness. (Paul had already proved that lawkeeping does not prevent lawlessness.) And anyone who says anything to the contrary is engaging in nothing less than slander (Romans 3:8). And slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it.

Also, as you already know, since you're studying Luther's Galatians commentary, Paul himself lays down moral laws in this very book, Galatians, as he does in ALL his epistles. Galatians 5:19,20 (NIV), for example:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

If you keep these New Testament laws, you HAVE NO NEED OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! New Testament laws are better in every way, as the book to the Hebrews makes abundantly clear, because they spring from the very person of Jesus Christ Himself, his words and actions as "God on earth" (Immanuel).

Bless you with many blessings, Rayna, whoever you are, for, like Mary of old, thou hast "chosen that good part which shall not be taken away from" you (Luke 10:42). We have Christ's word on that.

-Jude
Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gary, is your dog by any chance named after the Farnim bros. of James Herriot fame? I once had two ferrets named Tristan & Sigfried.

Satan is indeed alive and well, but there won't be any party for him, unless you call being thrown into a lake of fire (or consumed by fire, whichever you prefer) a party. Not my idea of a party.

Yikes! You printed your phone #? Well, live & learn, but try not to become paranoid. This site is not so new. It's been around awhile & is a much safer place than you realize. It will continue to be if you let go of your bitterness & just share your ideas on the issues & not the personalities of the people.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Gary,

I can speak only for myself, but I personally welcome you with open arms into this website. We Christians tend to forget that Jesus continually welcomes, "Whosoever will may come!" And the place to which he welcomes us is the kingdom of heaven that is within/among us all right now and right here (Luke 17:20,21).

But, with Lynn, I would also point out that this same Jesus said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven [which, remember, exists right here and now on earth], for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:10-12, NIV.)

I do disagree with you a bit about website security -- not that I know anything about the technical side, I don't. But I trust Richard Tinker, who does, and I agree completely with the FAF modus operandi for Internet discussion, which is posted on the "Welcome" page of formeradventist.com. I'll paste it below:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Everyone is welcome to join us and add their thoughts to this forum. When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. Posts may also be removed if the forum moderator believes that the message falls outside the scope of this web site.

"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:29-32 (NIV)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Grace and peace,

Jude
Gary Mayo
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn:

I would not categorize my recent life as paranoid, but rather as trust and betrayal. I will continue to help others, and that is what I have tried to do by my postings here.

I am aware of the starting date of this web site, but Adventism has a 150 year jump on us. Playing catch-up will be a chore. Who says work canít be fun?
Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gary, my appologies for implying that your life is paranoid. I should have been more specific. I was only referring to your suggestions on the tight security & changing the passwords monthly. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. And I'm sorry to hear about your web-site troubles. I've visited there myself and enjoyed it. Glad to hear it's back on-line.

I truly hope your visits here will be uplifting to you and glorifying to Christ. If I get out of line, just let me know.
Gary Mayo
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2000 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

J the O:

Yours is the only welcome I have ever gotten with hands hidden behind the back, fingers crossed safety signal in place in case something goes wrong. I will remember it always.

I am sorry your impression of me was impart colored by false impressions planted by others. If you will reread the first posts in this forum guest book, you will see I came and went with no apparent damage, some time ago, well before you came here. Maybe that should tell you something, maybe not. Thanks for the welcome, but uncross your fingers before they start cramping.

I just took the time to reread every post in the Guest book from day one, and I see that I may be getting credit for posts not made by me. I am not the author of any posts that have been removed for improper content, as every post I have authored here is still in place. So your words of advice I can agree with, completely. Remember, I said a true Christian works in the light, not the darkness.

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