| Author |
Message |
Lori
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 9:55 am: |     |
Head saved, heart saved----thats not an Adventist term. You find it in other denominations. It's a nice way of saying we only thought he was saved, but he wasn't. There is no difference. You can't be heart saved as opposed to being head saved. You are either saved because you believe in Jesus Christ and his redemptive work at the cross. Or you reject who he was and you reject his salvation and your lost! It's that simple.
Christ also was opposed to religion. Salvation is not about religion at all!
I haved learned a tremendous amount about Bible doctrines from the ministry of Col. R.B. Thieme. He fluently understands the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages and interprets the Bible directly from that. His ministry shows you how to understand the Word of God and how to apply and claim the promises of the Bible to your life so that you can have that peace and assurance through the storms of life.
His tapes are available free of charge. They have a website http://www.rbthieme.org You will find ordering information there. And just incase you are wondering, he's never been an Adventist.
You will be tremendously blessed by God!!!!! |
Bruce H
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 11:40 am: | |
George
Head saved...Heart saved?
How does one know the difference????????!!!!!!!!
I agree with you George no where in the bible does
it say there are two thing's.
Ezek 36:26-27 26 "I will give you a new heart and
put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart
of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of
flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you
to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My
judgments and do them.
This happened after Christ death, at Pentacost,
and is avaliable to all who revieve the GOSPEL.
EPH 1:13-14 13 In Him you also trusted, after you
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until
the redemption of the purchased possession, to the
praise of His glory.
So Gary it is that simple if you believe that you
are a sinner and dead which I do believe you do
-----I know I1m going to HELL so what the hell is
the point?-----------------------
Then grasp for the FREE GIFT which is Christ in
you all you have to do is believe that he is
there. You may say to yourself well I do not feel
any different how do I know that He is there.
Well you must believe His guarantee EPH 1:13-14.
If you have a Hard time then Talk to Jesus and
let him know that, ask for faith for he FREELY
Gives to those who are his, He will give it to
you.
Bruce H
B |
Darrell
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 1:04 pm: | |
Lori,
I have a little book by R. B. Thieme which I have found valuable: "The Faith-Rest Life". It is based on Hebrews 3 & 4 and was given to me by a friend who attends Berachah church bible studies via phone link-up. |
Bruce H
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 2:27 pm: | |
George
You can never know for sure if another person is
saved or is a born again Christian. You can only
know for sure about yourself.
There is one test that you can use though that may
help?
Matt 7:17 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good
fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a
bad tree bear good fruit.
I believe that the fruit that a person perduces,
is when He brings another person to the saving
grace of Jesus Christ and thus their lives are
changed. Fruit is not necessarly good works of
the person although good works go hand in hand
with those who have the Spirit of God in them.
Now those who you are talking about,
---They have left a trail of battered broken
people (even dead people) behind them. All for
what?-----
Now is this the fruit of a good tree or a bad
tree.
Bruce H
BH |
Gary Mayo
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 4:26 pm: | |
You can tell if a person is saved if you are one with God in your heart. I know people that can tell real fruit from phony baloney, but it is not possible to tell on the net, I think. Get a real person in front of me, and I can spot real from fake. The word for this is discernment. |
Maryann
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 11:33 pm: | |
Hi Gary,
Iím not to well versed in the Bible yet. I think I need to disagree with you though. If my memory serves me right, only God knows the heart. It kinda strikes me that if one claims they can tell if a person is saved if they are in front of them and can see their fruits, they are a little closer to presumption than discernment. I am not quoting exactly what you said, so please correct me if I got the wrong impression. I have run across some absolutely wonderful people that bear some awesome fruit. These people have no claim to Christianity yet appear more like Christ than your average fruit bearing Christian? Go ahead guys, if Iím all wet, blast me!
As to one of these hairy questions that came up previously. I didnít notice anyone answering it. If you, as a born again Christian die in the act of murdering someone and donít have the chance to repent (obviously because you are dead) do you still get to go to heaven? Now, if you say, this guy must not have really been saved because of his fruits we are on presumptuous ground. Letís say this guys daughter was murdered by the guy he killed. The Christian had been a deacon that did many good things around his area for years. After the murder of his daughter he prayed and prayed for the strength to forgive this dude. The pain was to great, his faith sorta slipped, he grew bitter and one day in town he blew this dude away and the cops shot him on the spot! If you say he goes to heaven this guy had a licence to kill. If you say that he missed his chance to go to heaven because he was not able to repent then re-repentance is necessary for salvation? I really need to be able to study all these things for my self. It really does take time to get educated in these maters so they become part of you. The more you study the Bible the bigger it gets, the bigger it gets the more you need to study and so on and on! The Bible talks a lot about repentance, so what is itís roll in salvation. Ah hah OR, is there a difference between repentance at the time of your salvation and everyday repentance?
I better leave this alone before I confuse all of you. All the above seems so muddled. I just canít pull it all together smoothly.
Mom just doesnít seem at all receptive. She needs some melting prayers. She says there is someone at her church that keeps up on this forum. Jude, you were right about being monitored. Thatís kool kuz they may see the light!
Why donít all you guys pray that I will learn to pray. Iím extra short in that area.
Thank You...............Maryann |
Lori
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 3:29 pm: | |
Maryann,
I agree completely. A human can not know another humans heart. Only God can know our true motives. Some of the best people that you will ever know are not believers, they are kind, sweet, thougtful, respectful, etc.....but they are not saved. Some of the worst people you meet are Christian, they grumble and complain, they are mean but they are saved, they are just not living under the spiritual influence. I Cor. 3:1-3 is addressing believers, Paul calls them worldly--mere infants in Christ. We can remain infants that need a lot of attention and recognition and that cry when they don't get their way or we can grow in the Spirit and become mature believers in Christ. A babe in Christ is under the carnal influence and can commit any sin that a unbeliever can commit, including murder.
Abeliever, one that has accepted Christ as his Saviour, can commit murder and die without acknowledging his sin and be saved. We are assured of salvation, if we believe in Christ. Jn 3:36
You seem to be hung up on the idea of murder being the worst sin and how could a person that murders possible be saved. Check out Prov. 6:16-19. If your theory is correct, then a person that tells a lie, spreads a false rumor and dies before he confesses can not be saved either.
Our carnal nature is not removed when we accept Christ. When we accept Christ, we receive His Spirit. At that point, it is up to us, whether we allow the Spirit or the carnal nature to rule us. The carnal nature and Spiritual nature are in constant battle. Romans 7:15
When we realize we are sinning we need to do as IJohn 1:9 instructs and get back in the Spirit by confessing our sin before God. We don't receive the Spirit by asking for the Spirit, we receive it by removing that barrier that separates us from God, that being our sin.
2Tim 2:13
If we are faithless, (if we mess up and return to our carnal nature and sin)
He will remain faithful (he will save us, just like he promised!)
for he can not disown himself (when we accept Christ as saviour, we become IN HIM, if he rejected us because we sinned, after we had accepted his robe of rigteousness, then he would be rejecting himself, because we are IN HIM)
As a believer, we are commanded to love. If we break the commandments of love, no matter what it is, we will be disciplined by God. We are his child and he disciplines his children.
If your son committed murder and died before he could tell you that he knew he had sinned, wouldn't he still be your son???? If he lived would he not be discipled???? But would you not still claim him as your son. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 11:01 pm: | |
Maryann, I'm praying for you and for your mom. By the way, you don't need a formula for prayer. Just start talking to God and telling him the things you're feeling and fearing and ask him to teach you to let him take the burden for you. Remember Jesus said, Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
That's because he has his head in the yoke already, and he's asking us to join him in it. He'll pull the load with us--and he takes more than half the weight! We still have to move through the burdensome times, but he walks with us a shoulders the weight.
As him to help you put his yoke on! And don't be afraid to be honest with him. He can heal and redeem whatever we give to him! |
Maryann
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 29, 2000 - 9:50 pm: | |
Lori,
That was a real good selection of verses you put up. I have some questions regarding them at some other time.
Lori, Lynn, Jude, Bruce, Colleen,
If Jesus is like our safety net, can we, if we choose, turn and jump the other direction? Can we choose to give up our salvation?
Is there a "reward" system in heaven that rewards the faithful. How are the saved ones less faithful deeds rewarded in relation to the faithful?
Somehow, somewhere there has to be a better answer than just be happy you made it!
Still seeking answers....Maryann |
Lynn W
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2000 - 10:29 am: | |
After 2 years of fully trusting and believing in Christ, I once got drunk and very intentionally shook my fist in God's face and said, If this is what you're like. I don't want anything to do with you, get out of my life. I was convinced that for the next 2 years, I was lost.
Now I realize 2 things. First, I was not rejecting the God of scripture, but a god of my own imagination based on a combination of my own ignorance and experiences.
Second, there are times in the Bible when people rejected/denied God/Christ, such as Peter who knew full well Who he was rejecting. He had lived with Christ and knew exactly what He was like. When Christ came back later, He made no mention of it, or even asked for repentance. Instead He gave Peter the opportunity to proclaim his love for Christ 3 times - once for each time he had denied Him. I'm no expert, but I think Peter's denial was just a blip on the radar screen in the grand scheme of his salvation.
BTW, that was 2 years without Christ and it's been 20+ years with. Perhaps that, too was just a blip. WDYT? |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2000 - 5:19 pm: | |
YOU CANNOT BE SAVED, REDEEMED OR FORGIVEN OUTSIDE THE BORDERS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
We do not receive redemption or forgiveness or salvation outside the borders of the kingdom of heaven.
What is our state of salvation or forgivenness or redemption? Can we say, "I am saved?" Can we lose it? "Once saved always saved?"
I believe that salvation is relational. It is the society of "right relationships" (as Lynn once put it). And it almost always takes place within a human social context.
Scripture describes the church in the New Testament in many ways. Here's a sampling: (1) vine with branches, (2) shepherd with sheep, (3) the kingdom of the Sun/heaven/God, (3) the ecclesia or "those called out of the world by God to worship Him", (4) the body of Christ.
Note that in all of these cases, there is an organic context or matrix in which Christ is the head or source, but also the borders or boundaries. In other words, one must always be "in Christ" in order to be a member of his church, independently of any denominations, whether Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, or one of the many non-denominational organizational structures.
But the main point I'd like to make is this: We do not receive salvation or redemption or forgiveness outside the borders of the kingdom of heaven.
How do I know?
Colossians 1:13, NIV: For he [God the Father] has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
What is this text saying if it is not saying, You must first enter into the kingdom of heaven before you can be forgiven, redeemed and saved?
In other words you must first enter the kingdom of heaven (or church) first. Then -- in that social context, with other Christian people all around you, praying for you, encouraging you, upbuilding you in Jesus' name -- and only then do you become forgiven, redeemed and saved.
Forgiveness, redemption and salvation do not take place on the outside. You do not become saved on the outside of the kingdom of heaven or church. You become saved on the inside.
At least this is how I interpret Colossians 1:13, NIV: "For he [God the Father] has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Agree? Disagree? What is your interpretation?
If my interpretation is correct, then the converse is also true: It is impossible to become lost within the church (kingdom of heaven). You must first travel outside the borders of God's realm. This has to be a conscious and determined decision on your part.
Thus, Lynn's very wonderful testimony is true. She wrote:
"After 2 years of fully trusting and believing in Christ, I once got drunk and very intentionally shook my fist in God's face and said, If this is what you're like, I don't want anything to do with you, get out of my life. I was convinced that for the next 2 years, I was lost."
But she wasn't! Why not? Because this entire experience took place within the borders of God's spiritual realm on earth, the kingdom of heaven that is within us and all around us, the church, the body of Christ!
God is gracious. God is the judge. Let's not superimpose our own feelings of faithlessness upon God's sovereignty.
Jude |
BRUCE H
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2000 - 9:38 pm: | |
Maryann
Salvation comes at one time and is forever.
DO YOU BELIEVE.
EPH 1:13,14 13 In Him you also trusted, after you
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until
the redemption of the purchased possession, to the
praise of His glory.
It is a GUARANTEE!!!!!
DO YOU BELIEVE.
ROM 8:9,10 9 But you are not in the flesh but in
the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in
you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of
Christ, he is not His.
Does the spirit of God dwell in you? If it does
then you have eternal life, if it does not then
you are not His (Sheep).
How can you know if the Spirit of God dwells in
you. BELIEVE.
DO YOU BELIEVE.
JOHN 10:26-30 26 "But you do not believe, because
you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and
they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall
never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out
of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is
greater than all; and no one is able to snatch
them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
They shall never perish!!!!
Are you his sheep? What do sheep do? They wander
away. Who's job is it to find the sheep? IS IT
THE SHEEP'S JOB TO FIND THE SHEPHERD OR THE
SHEPHERD JOB TO FIND THE SHEEP!!!!!!!!!
DO YOU BELIEVE.
JOHN 6:28,29 28 Then they said to Him, "What
shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the
work of God, that you believe in Him whom He
sent."
DO YOU BELIEVE.
REV 3:5 5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in
white garments, and I will not blot out his name
from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name
before My Father and before His angels.
WHO OVERCOMES?????
1 JOHN 5:5 5 Who is he who overcomes the world,
but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
DO YOU BELIEVE.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SOMBODY CAN LOOSE THEIR
SALVATION. JESUS ASKED THE FATHER TO KEEP THOSE
WHO WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND NOT TO
LOOSE THEM (JOHN 17). DO YOU THINK THE FATHER
CANNOT KEEPHIS PROMISE TO THE SON.
BRUCE H
BH |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2000 - 11:17 pm: | |
Bruce, Jude, Lynn, Colleen, Lori,
Thank you! That sorta handcuffs the devils hands behind him, huh?
I just understood the above to say that if I want to jump off the cliff out of the kingdom, Jesus will catch me before I crash lifelessly to the Ground?
I have some doubts about God, Heaven and the whole concept sometimes. I need to get brave and bring them up sometime.
Resting at this moment.........Maryann |
Lynn W
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2000 - 12:03 pm: | |
Maryann, If God can handle my rebellion, He can certainly handle your doubts. Trust Him. |
Bruce H
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2000 - 5:44 pm: | |
Maryann
If you have doubts at times this is normal, these
are feeling and you can not trust feelings, you
have to lean on the word of God and its promises.
Just ask the Lord for more faith, he is always
happy to answere those prayers. |
Lori
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2000 - 8:13 pm: | |
Maryann,
I keep thinking I won't come back and visit this site anymore that it is time for me to move on----but I find that by coming here, it futher grounds me in Bible doctrines and gives me a larger shield of Faith to stand behind when I search for the promises of God that answers the questions posted here. And it is a real blessing to hear the comments of others (Jude, Colleen, Lynn, Bruce and others) on the subject.
I thank God for you Maryann!!!!
Get a piece of paper and draw out this picture.
On the left side of the paper, about midway draw the cross. Because the cross is the turning point for all who believe on it.
On the right side at the top of the page draw a BIG circle. This circle represents our eternal relationship with God, that is, just that, eternal, not temporary and not dependent upon our actions, deeds or works.. Within the circle write, In union with the light(Eph.5:8), In union with Christ forever, (2 Cor. 5:17), ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP (Rom. 8:38,39), Eternal security (John 10:28). This circle represents what we receive the moment we accept Christ as our righteousness.
We receive his righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21), Eternal life (1John 5:11-12), Sonship (John 1:12, Gal 3:26), Heirship (Rom 8:16-17, 1 Peter 1:4), Royalty (Col. 1"13, 2 Tim 2:11-12), priesthood (1Peter 2:5,6), Election (Eph. 1:4), Destiny (Eph. 1:5), and Sanctification (1Cor. 1:2, 30; Eph. 1:4) All of these things are received at the cross when we accept him!!!! They are forever, we can never be removed from these gifts from God.
At the bottom on the right side, make another BIG circle, but this time make it with dotted lines, because this is the circle that we enter at salvation and we exit and re-enter and exit and re-enter......... throughout our earthly walk. This circle represents our Temporary Fellowship with God. In the circle write: Walk in the Light (1John 1:7a), Filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18), TEMPORARY FELLOWSHIP (1John 1:3), Spirituality (1Cor. 3:1).
Just to the right side of the bottom circle draw a irregular shape. This irregular shape represents our sin nature. The sin nature that resides within us, waging war with our spiritual nature that we received at the cross. Whenever we give in to our sinful nature (personal sin-Gal. 5:19-21) we step out of the bottom circle and into the irregular shape (carnality-1Cor.3:1-3) and we are walking in darkness (1 John1:6), while we are walking in the darkness, even if we KNOW the will of God, we can not do it, because we can not do the will of God through our own sinful nature only through the HolySpirit. So how do we get back into the the light. We rebound!!!! We use 1John 1:9 and we get back in the Fellowship!!!!!! We don't receive the Holy Spirit by praying for the Holy Spirit, we only receive it by confessing our sins. And then, BOOM, without asking for it, the Holy Spirit is working within us.
By the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT we are placed in the top circle (1 Cor.12:13)
By our faith in CHRIST (Acts 16:31) we are placed in the bottom circle.
We lose our faith when we don't claim God's promises and when we don't claim the promises,we don't rest in our faith! Losing our faith is alot different than losing our salvation.
You asked about the rewards.......our rewards begin here on earth. The child of God who learns the Word and claims the promises, is walking around on this earth in REST IN HIS FAITH. He is the one, (when all of the circumstances around him cause others to run around in panic, unable to think) he is calm, because he knows the end results, he's the one who when it looks like all is lost, claims the promises, like Rom. 8:28, and sits back and relaxes.
Here's a example:
You are watching a live football game, it is in the last quarter with only 1 minute to go, your team is behind, you have the ball, you are on the 2nd yd line, (so close, but so far away). Who wins will all be determined in the next few minutes, if your team can make the connections, you will come out victorious, but you have to make the play and it has to be done now. You're on the edge of your seat, every muscle is tense, because you don't know the outcome. You're not calm.
However, picture the same game, same circumstances, except this time, the game is pre recorded and you already know the score!! How different will your reaction be in those last couple of minutes?? You'll be calm.
So it is with those who REST IN THEIR FAITH and bring to ming the PROMISES of God when they need them, they will have PEACE IN THE STORM.
This is the beginning of the reward of our faithfulness, it begins right here, right now. Are you going to live in the city of Peace or the city of Panic? Remember, you already know the 'score'!!!! |
Maryann
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 2:50 pm: | |
Hi Lori,
Please DO continue to visit this forum. You, along with the others are very important to the cause. I will have to budget my time on the forum as I have found out it can be very time consuming. If that is what you are dealing with, please consider putting aside just a little bit of time in for sharing and contributing. Thank you for the above post.
Hoping you stay with us....Maryann |
BRUCE H
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 4:05 pm: | |
Lori
That is a great story about the football game.
I found it facinating to read in the word that
fear is a sin. Well when I accepted Jesus Christ
the FEAR went away.
In John 10, and 17, I picture myself in Jesus's
hand and around his hand is the Father hand. I do
not know how God could tell me any other way then
this is how safe I am.
Praise our ALMIGHTY GOD FOR HE IS WONDERFUL AND
AWSOME.
BRUCE H |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 2:07 pm: | |
Amen, Bruce! |
Bruce H
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 4:54 pm: | |
Maryann
I liked Lori's example but I look at the Holy
Spirit this way. In the Old Covenant or Testament
the Glory of the Lord (Shakina) filled the temple
in 1 Kings 8:10, and this Glory filled the Temple
so that the priests could not stand and minister.
God dwelled in the Most Holy Place at that time
and all through the time of that temple. But
through the years as Isreal turned away from God
the Glory of the Lord lessened in the Temple, you
could not see His glory outside of the temple.
But God was still in the Most Holy place. When we
accept Jesus into our lives it says we become the
temple of God and he dwells in us. If we choose
to follow his ways then his glory will shine out
through us but if we dont then his Glory can not
be seen but God himself is still there in the Most
Holy Place in our heart.
Bruce Heinrich
BH |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:06 pm: | |
Hey all you Bible students,
I'm very puzzled as to why none of you have grbbed on to the subject of this heading: Salvation V Rewards? Either I have NOT made my question clear or you guys don't have a clue! Soooooooooo, you have FORCED me to make a study on it which I should be able to post in severals parts next week sometime. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But thanks for making me study, I needed a push!
Maryann
Oh yeh, Richard or colleen,
I keep seeing this stuff posted below the posting box, what the heck is it?!
2d%2dI+know+I1m+going+toHELL+so+what+the+hell+is+%Oathe+point%3f%2d%2d%
and on and on for pages and pages? |
Lynn W
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 10:31 pm: | |
Sorry, Maryann. Perhaps you need to rephrase the question. Are we still talking about whether a person can kill and still go to heaven? |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 11:11 pm: | |
Lynn,
Look at the first post under this heading. If rewards are earned, and salvation is a gift, obviously, they are NOT the same thing! So, what's a reward? By the way, it's sure cool to be able to look eye level at you, you sly OLD gal!
Now don't go posting anything right away, I all wound up to study this one out myself. YOU just be armed and ready. You to Jude. |
Lori
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 7:41 am: | |
I think the answer you wanted got lost in translation......I had recognized the difference in what you posted under, but your question seemed to deal with assurance of salvation rather than rewards in heaven. You did touch on that in later post...
Our rewards begin here with the peace that we have in God's promises when we claim them.
When we get to heaven we will be judged, but not for our sins, because the price has already been paid for sin and since we have accepted Christ we have accepted his payment for sins and they will not be held against us.
We will be judged by our deeds, the deeds that God design for us to do before creation. Deeds should not be confused with works, deeds has nothing whatsoever to do with laws, legalism, regulations. Deeds have nothing to do with doing something to benefit yourself. (i.e.keeping the Sabbath-as done by the Adventist that I personally know-is done for salvation, because they believe if they don't they are just like the world, notice I'm saying the Adventist I know, if you are reading this and you are a sabbath keeper I'm not implying that is why YOU keep it)
Maryann, I'm sure you have already found all these texts. I'm looking forward to reading your study!!
Even the spiritually dead who have not accepted Christ will not be judged on their sins, but on their deeds (Rev. 20:11-15) You can read that text all day long and never find they are judged by their sins. Christ died for all sins! Not just the sins of those who accepted him, but ALL sin. It's just those who reject him don't accept his robe of righteousness and they come up short. We owe God absolute Righteousness, we can never give him that. When we accept Christ we obtain it as a gift. So under the righteousness factor we are all equal. Our rewards in heaven are based upon our deeds. We will be rewarded for deeds, but it has absolute nothing to do with our salvation.
Is this what you found in your study???? |
Chyna
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 11:13 am: | |
Hello,
Adjunct to IJ, is the question of eternal security. Since I'm equipping myself to talk to my friend about it, I began reading some very interesting articles on Eternal Security.
one passage I love the most is used as a cornerstone to prove Eternal Security:
Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
the author Bob Wilkin of the article states that this is the steadfast reassurance of our salvation that we can claim.
death/life
"Nothing in this life and nothing in death can separate a believer from God's love. The two things we fear most, dying and living, are not threats to our eternal life. Whether we live or die, we are in His love. Jesus won't ever let us go. We have security that is a matter of life and death."
Nor Things Present/Nor Things to Come
"He went on to say that nothing in our present experience, nor anything to come, can separate us from God's love in Christ. That encourages me tremendously. Nothing in all of time, present or future, can separate me from God's love. Wow! He accepts me like I am and will never desert me. He loves me and will never stop loving me.
Often, when explaining the doctrine of eternal security to someone, I simply show them this pairing and ask, "What does 'nor things present nor things to come' mean?" I have not found anyone yet who failed to see what this means--that _there is not and never will be_ a time when we can be separated from God's love in Christ."
Nor Height/Nor Depth
The third pairing is equally as impressive. Here Paul refers to height and depth. If we were to travel to the "highest" or "lowest" points in the universe, or anywhere in between, we would never arrive at a place where we could escape Christ's love. There is nowhere we can go where anyone or anything can take our eternal salvation away from us. Nowhere.
By using these three pairs Paul could not be any plainer or clearer. Eternal life is eternal. No one or nothing, at any time or place, can ever separate us from God's love."
Nor Angels/Nor Principalities/Nor Powers
This triplet refers to angelic and demonic powers. Paul has already made it crystal clear that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. However, he decided to mention a specific concern that his readers might have had. Angels and demons are more powerful than we are. They are unseen. Yet there is nothing that can separate us from His love-including angels and demons. While the devil and demons can make believer's present lives miserable if we yield to their influence, they cannot take away our eternal life.
*********Nor Any Other Created Thing************
"I have met a few people who have seen in this phrase an escape clause. They argue this way: "No other created thing can separate me from God's love. However, I can separate myself from his love by ceasing to believe or by falling into a life of gross sin."
Such a view has absolutely nothing to commend it. PAUL CLEARLY DOES NOT MEAN "no created thing other than ourselves." If that were so, then what he said previously was false. When Paul said that nothing in our present or future experience can separate us from God's love, that had to include the possibility of failure, even major failure, on our part. Nothing to come can separate us from His love. That includes anything that we as believers might do, think, or say. "
"Paul's reason for including this last element is to fill out the list. Angels and demons are created beings. They can't separate us from God. Neither can any other created being. Rather than adding an exception, as Murray says, "This concluding negation is for the purpose of leaving no loophole-no being or thing in the whole realm of created reality is excluded" (Romans, p.334; italics mine).
"I have never met a human being yet (other than Jesus, of course) who was uncreated. Every human being falls in the category of a created being.
I feel compelled to respond to a very dangerous assurance teaching which is about today. *There are many who would agree that one cannot lose his salvation and yet they say that no one can be sure he personally is saved.* They suggest that no one can know for sure if he has been saved yet-at least not till death.
How on earth could anyone get that from the text? ***What would be comforting about Paul saying that saved people can't lose their salvation if it is impossible to know if I personally am saved? *** In 2 Corinthians 5:14 Paul says that the love of Christ compels us to serve God. That would be a ridiculous statement if I can't know that Christ loves me. As long as I doubt his love for me I will be robbed of the motivating power of gratitude. "
on John 15:6
"Believers Who Play With Fire Get Burned
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
since loss of salvation is unbiblical, the conclusion the author comes to is that it is more like a temporary judgement
"Fire is a common metaphor in Scripture for both temporal and eternal judgment. Of course, since genuine believers are in view as we have seen, then temporal judgment must be meant here. Believers have passed from death to life and will never come into judgment (John 5:24; cf. John 3:18).
That fire can refer to the temporal judgment of genuine believers is beyond question (cf. Lev 10:2; 1 Cor 3:10-15; Heb 6:7-8; 10:27; Jude 23)."
Galations 5:4 falling from grace
Falling from Grace Is Not Loss of Eternal Life
Falling from Grace Is Loss of the Experience of Grace
"We would agree that the book is addressed to Christians (Galatians 1:6,9; 5:1).
We would also agree that some of the readers had fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) and some were on the verge of doing so (Galatians 5:2).
We would even agree that it is possible for believers today to fall from grace.
The text clearly does not limit this falling to the Galatian Christians only. Any Christian who reverts to seeking to be justified by law has fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).
The problem is in the conclusion we draw, not in the premises. The whole issue here is what falling from grace means. Does it mean that the believers in question have fallen from their positional standing in grace? If it does, then Paul contradicts himself because in other passages he clearly states that is impossible (cf. Romans 8:38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Colossians 2:13-14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 2 Timothy 2:13).
Since scripture is God's Word, it cannot contradict itself. Thus, whatever Paul meant by falling from grace he did not mean falling from one's position as a child of God.
Is there not another obvious alternative, one which fits the context and Pauline and biblical theology perfectly? Falling from grace means that a believer who reverts to pharisaical thinking and practices has fallen from a present experience of grace. While our position in the grace of God is secure, our experience of His grace is not.
If a believer today is unwittingly duped into joining a works-salvation cult, he will cease to experience God's grace until he leaves the cult. In fact, if a believer joins any group, cult or otherwise, which teaches that we must produce good works in order to maintain our salvation, he will cease to experience grace. Even the linking of assurance to the quality of our lives can lead a believer to fall from a daily experience of grace. "
The Unpardonable Sin: Mark 3:22-30
The expression "the unpardonable sin" doesn't occur in Scripture. This is a label which people have put on what Jesus called, "the blasphemy against the Spirit" (Matt 12:31). Jesus said that "he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness" (Mark 3:29).
At the outset we need to challenge the designation "the unpardonable sin." Jesus didn't say that "he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven." That would make the sin "unpardonable." Rather, He said that "heÖnever has forgiveness." That would better be described as "the unpardoned sin." The death of Christ covers all sins without exception (John 1:29). The distinction may seem unimportant. It isn't.
Jesus could be referring to those who reject him their entire lives and die in unbelief. Wessel comments, "Surely what Jesus is speaking of here [Mark 3:22-30] is not an isolated act but a settled condition of the soul-the result of a long history of repeated and willful acts of sin through hardness of heart (cf. 3:5)" (NIV Bible Commentary, Mark, p. 151).
Can Christians Commit This Sin?
Finally a question we can answer with absolute certainty! The answer is No. No Christian can commit a sin for which there will never be forgiveness. Other Scriptures make this crystal clear. For instance, Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" (John 5:24, italics added). If a believer ever came into the judgment of eternal condemnation, Jesus would be proved a liar. Of course, He never lies. Thus no Christian could commit a sin which would result in loss of his salvation. That is impossible.
The Eternal-Rewards View (Rev 3:3-5)
According to this view, genuine believers are in view and their salvation is not in question. Admittedly, some suggest that since churches sometimes contain unbelievers, then these seven letters may have been addressed to both believers and unbelievers. However, in a biblical sense churches never contain unbelievers. Churches are not buildings or social gatherings. Churches are assemblies of believers. Since the Lord was writing to churches, he was writing exclusively to believers.
This is supported by the fact that in none of the seven letters do we find a Gospel appeal.5 The word faith only occurs twice in these letters (Rev 2:13, 19) and in both cases it is affirming the fact that the readers already have faith, not calling them to believe. Surely if these seven letters were addressed to unbelievers, we would find repeated calls to trust in Christ. Instead, we find none.
We know some of what this superlative experience will include: wearing special white garments (Rev 3:4-5), ruling with Christ (Rev 2:26-27; 3:21), eating the fruit of the tree of life (Rev 2:7), eating hidden manna (Rev 2:17), and receiving a white stone engraved with your own special name that only the Lord and you will know (Rev 2:17). None of these things is equivalent to eternal salvation. None of these things is required for kingdom entrance. These are all rewards awaiting the overcoming believer.
I Won't Blot Out His Name (Rev 3:3-5)
Several things should be observed in relation to this expression. First, whatever it means, it can't contradict other Scripture or the clear meaning of the rest of the passage and of other Scripture.
Second, many read it as though it says, "He who doesn't overcome I will blot out his name..." It doesn't say that. It is important to note that this verse doesn't say anything about the fate of those who don't overcome. It certainly doesn't say that God will blot the non-overcomer's name out of the Book of Life. The focus here is on the overcomer, not on the non-overcomer.
If I said, "All fathers are men," that wouldn't mean that the opposite is true, that all men are fathers. There are men who aren't fathers. In the same way, the corollary to our verse is not true. God will not blot out the name of the non-overcoming believer from the Book of Life! Once a person has spiritual life, it can never be taken away (cf. John 10:28-29; 1 John 5:12)
Third, there is a well-established figure of speech called litotes or understatement In this figure of speech a positive point is made by denying its opposite. For example, imagine that a loving, committed mother said to her teenage son, "If you mow the yard today, I won't send you to bed without dinner." Let's assume that the mother had previously guaranteed him that she would never send him to bed without supper. He would thus know that even if he didn't mow the yard,he would get dinner. His mom was promising him a special meal if he mowed the yard.
So, too, when the Lord says that He won't blot the name of the overcoming believer from the Book of Life, He means that He will give the overcomer a special fullness of life forever."
Psalm 69:28 David prayed that the names of his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life
The apostle John refers to the "book of life" five other times in Revelation. From two of these passages it becomes evident that he certainly did not believe names could be erased:
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Revelation 13:8
And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:3
In these passages John informs us about the time when the book of life was filled out. This information comes as a surprise. Without it, our assumption would be that when men or women put their trust in Christ, their names were added at that moment. But that is not the case at all. The book of life has been complete since the foundation of the world.
By "world," John does not mean "earth." In both passages "earth" and "world" appear. These are from two different Greek words. The one translated "earth" means just that--this ball of dirt upon which we live. The Greek word translated "world" is kosmos from which we get our English word cosmos.
John is using "world" here to refer to the entire universe (see John 1:3; Acts 17:24). In light of the scientific limitations of John's day, it could very well be a reference to all created things. Either way, his point is the same: The book of life was filled out before the first entry was ever born.
If that is the case, God's foreknowledge had a great deal to do with who was written in and who was not. In anticipation of Christ's death on man's behalf, God wrote the names of those He knew from eternity past would accept His gracious offer. The apostle Paul had this same idea in mind when he wrote
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Ephesians 1:4
God wrote before we did anything. He filled out the book of life in anticipation of what He knew we would do. Therefore, He did not write in response to what we actually did; rather, He wrote in response to what He knew we would actually do.
This distinction is very important. For if God put names in the book as history unfolded--as we actually believed ---it could be argued that He erases them as history unfolds as well. But if God entered names according to His foreknowledge, it follows that He would erase them according to His foreknowledge, which makes no sense at all. If God wrote and erased according to foreknowledge, both His writing and His erasing would be complete before the world began. In that case, no one needs to live with the fear that his or her name will be erased from the book of life sometime in the future. But if that is the case, Revelation 3:5 is no longer a problem.
There is a second reason these passages eliminate the possibility of names being erased. Both passages indicate that the lost people in these verses had never had their names written in the book of life. John does not say these names were simply not in the book at that time. He says, "Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world."
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Charles Stanley on Eternal Security
The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand"
"Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. FAITH and SALVATION are not one and the same anymore than a GIFT and the HAND THAT RECEIVES IT are the same. Salvation or justification or adoption- whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith"
"You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord"
The doctrine of rewards! Few (if any!) contemporary writers are more insistent on the role that this doctrine should play as a motivation for godly Christian living. This reviewer particularly enjoyed this crisp paragraph: "Does our behavior matter once we are assured of our salvation? You bet it does. Are there any eternal consequences when a believer sins? Absolutely. Will eternity be the same for those who follow Christ faithfully and those who live for themselves? Not a chance" (p. 118).
Shortly afterwards he states: "Keep in mind we are not talking about heaven and hell. That is a different issue all together. Our works have nothing to do with where we spend eternity. But they have a lot to do with what we can expect once we get there" |
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