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Archive through April 19, 2000Jude the Obscure20 4-19-00  3:32 pm
Archive through April 21, 2000Jude the Obscure20 4-21-00  2:56 pm
Archive through April 23, 2000Timo K20 4-23-00  7:32 am
Archive through April 25, 2000Timo K20 4-25-00  5:03 pm
Archive through April 30, 2000Plain Patti20 4-30-00  9:06 pm
Archive through May 3, 2000George20 5-03-00  7:12 am
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Plain Patti
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


George, you asked:

At what point am saved?

Allow me to let the Bible answer for you:
Hebrews 4:7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

George, you were saved in about 33 AD, give or take a few calendar errors, Y1K bugs, and faulty historians, by the doing and dying and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a fait accompli. All Christ asks us to do is believe that this is true. Re-read the book of John in a version that reads comfortably. How many times do you hear this: "Whoever believes on me will not perish, has eternal life, has passed from life to death, does not come into judgment," or something along that same theme.

After you read John, re-read the book of Romans:

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

There it is, George. Believe and live. Trust in His blood. His grace is sufficient for you.

George:
Or, is it when I stop doing the things that I do not WANT to do.


Read Romans 7. This is the converted apostle Paul speaking. Does it sound like he ever stopped "doing the things he did not want to? Don't make the mistake of the Galatians, George.
Listen to what Paul told the Galatians:

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

If our salvation is in Christ, and our sins are completely forgiven because of His saving act for us, we are FREE--there's that word again--from looking unto ourselves for salvation or any signs we think will accompany it. I don't know where she got it, but Ellen has a statement that I find very significant. The gist of it is that the closer we come to Christ, the more sinful we appear in our own eyes. If this is true, George, if the clearer we see Christ's perfection, the more we bemoan our own sinfulness, then we will not be looking to ourselves to measure our Christian "growth." On the contrary, we will keep our eyes on Christ, on His perfect salvation, knowing that we are hopeless sinners, and our only hope lies in His mercy and forgiveness.

Our righteousness is in heaven, where "moth or rust cannot corrupt it." It is beyond our sinful hands: it is no less than the righteousness of God in Christ.

(One of my mostest favorite texts:) "He was made sin for us, Who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." What a mind-boggling text! Our righteousness has already been worked out for us, and all we have to do is take God at His word, to trust that the work of Christ in our behalf was indeed sufficient for all who believe on His name!

George:
How will I know?

Believe. Don't look to yourself. Look to Christ. Don't ask, "Am I worthy?" but ask, "Is the Lamb worthy?"

In the old sacrificial system, when one was bringing a lamb as a sin offering, there was an inspection. Do you know what was inspected? I will give you a hint: it was not the person who sinned. The priest did not examine and cross-examine the sinner to see if he was worthy of pardon. It was the lamb that was inspected. Only a perfect lamb was acceptable. So it is with us. When we stand before the judgment throne of God, we will not plead our righteousness; we will plead the perfection of the Lamb.

(Another of my mostest favorite texts:)
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Christ died for you, George. Believe. And live. And just keep letting those eggs drop into the ocean! :)

God bless you!
Patti
Rayna
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello you all! Yes, I am from Arkansas! I also know that I sound like a preacher at times, but when I learned the truth of "Righteousness by Faith" I was in shock for a long time. I still am not over it. It is the greatest message I have ever heard because I had tried so hard to be perfect before God, and all I seemed to do was fail. It was like heavenly music to my ears. I still fail but have learned to know this truth which of "Righteousness by faith" I have read and reread Martin Luther on this topic, along with the Bible. I will continue to read it as it is the most awesome truth I have ever head. What a burden was lifted from me when I understood it. I am still learning more daily as I study.

Here is a quote from Martin Luther: " For as long as I live in the flesh, sin is truly in me........
So we shroud ourelves under the covering of Christ's flesh, who is our 'cloudy pillar for the day, and our pillar of fire for the night' Exod.13: 21 lest God should see our sin. And although we see it, and for the same do feel the terrors of conscience, yet flying unto Christ our mediator and reconciler (through whom we are made perfect), we are sure and safe: for as all things are in him so through him we have all things, who also doth supply whatsoever is wanting in us. When we believe this, God winketh at the remnants of sin yet sticking in our flesh, and so covereth them, as if they were no sin. Because saith he, thou believest in my Son, although thou have many sins, yet notwithstanding they shall be forgiven thee, until thou be clean delivered from them by death. ".............
"Christian righteousness consisteth in these two things: namely, in faith which giveth glory unto God, and in God's imputation. For faith is weak (as I have said) and therefore God's imputation must needs be joined withal; that is to say that God will not lay to our charge the remnant of sin, but that he will not punish it, nor condemn us for it; but will cover it and will freely forgive it, as though it were nothing at all; not for our sake, neither for our worthiness and works, but for Jesus Christ's sake in whom we believe."......

But how shall I be delivered from sin? Run to Christ the Physician which healeth them that are broken in heart, and saveth sinners. Follow not the judgment of reason, which telleth thee, that he is angry with sinners; but kill reason and believe in Christ. If thou believe, thou are righteous, because thou givest glory unto God, that he is almighty, merciful, true &c. Thou justifiest and praisest God: to be brief, thou yieldest unto him his divinity,a nd whatsoever else beloneth unto him. And the sin which remaineth in thee, is not laid to thy charge, but
is pardoned for Christ's sake in whom thou believest, who is perfectly just; whose righteousness is thy righteousness, and thy sin is his sin."

Thus a Christian man is both righteous and a sinner, holy and profane, an enemy of God and yet a child of God. Luther on Galatians pages 226 and 227

I know it says in Romans that "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord doth not impute sin."

SDA could never accept this teaching, I do not think anyway. Attempting to become perfect in this life will drive one stark raving mad, as said by Martin Luther if he had not been delivered from the error of becoming perfectly righteous in this life on earth.

I truly enjoy this site and all the comments.

RaynaKay@aol.com
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Rayna,

I just took a tour through you contributions in the archives. You seem exceedingly well armed with the Word of God.

I was wanting to hear your story and only got a hint in a few places about being an SDA for 23 years and listening to Bob Brindsmead in the 70s. What was his impact on you? When did you get out of SDAism.

You said on Aug. 2, 99,

"I have been reading your messages about how to heal our wounds after leaving the SDA Church. As I look back, I have begun to realize that if I had not had this experience in life, I would not appreciate the gospel as I know it today. SDA's have a doctrine of the law and obedience to it for salvation. They deny this, but we all know it is true. We have the wonderful truth that our salvation is not of works but by faith only in Jesus. The Adventist church is like a schoolmaster that drives us to truly appreciate the gospel, when we learn of it. I remember the wonderful relief I felt when I learned that our salvation is not by keeping the 10 commandments, but by faith in Jesus alone. I only look at the SDA experience as a hard taskmaster that I escaped from and now I am free."

I just had to re-share that with everyone as that is so well put and so, so, soooh true.

Have you found any Former fellowship yet?

Looking forward to your story,

Your sister....Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GEORGE

-------------------------------------------------
Now the age old question. At what point am saved?
Is it now? Or, is it when I stop doing the things
that I do not WANT to do. How will I know? It
seems that if we can know WHAT being saved is in
simple turms, we should be able to know in just as
simple turms WHEN we are saved.

Still looking for answers----George
-------------------------------------------------

George
When God brought the children of Isreal to the
border of the promised land he said it is yours
take it. The people did not believe and they
grumbeled how can we take it. The bible says
because of the UNBELIEFE God said that they would
die in the desert.
Now Jesus has said the promised Kingdom of Heaven
is yours. The real question is do you believe.
If you dont then you will die. If you do then you
will live forever.

Eph 1:13-14 13 In Him you also trusted, after you
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until
the redemption of the purchased possession, to the
praise of His glory.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word
of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

You have heard the Word of truth He has paid for
your sins.

in whom also, having believed, you were sealed
with the Holy Spirit of promise,

See If you believe then you are sealed with the
Holy Spirit.

who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the
redemption of the purchased possession, to the
praise of His glory.

So you can have a guarantee the Holy Spirit which
dwells in you. This is when you are saved.

DO YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT. IF YOU DO THEN YOU ARE
SAVED RIGHT THEN, GO OUT AND TELL THE WORLD ABOUT
IT.
IF YOU DONT THEN ASK GOD FOR FAITH TO BEILEVE
REACH OUT TO HIM AND ASK FOR FAITH HE WILL NOT
FAIL YOU.

BH
Plain Patti
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2000 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,
I think you and I went to the same church...
And I think you are planning to have coffee with my mother... :)

Patti
George
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2000 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all who answered,

I guess I should have said, at what point do I KNOW that I am saved? There is knowledge but sthat does not save me. When do I know that I believe and not just know ABOUT salvation? It is hard to get what I mean across on this computer.

Thanks for all the good words. And Patti where do you find all those verses that no one has ever seen before???? I like them.


Got ot to go to work----George
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, I am not sure I know your mother because I do not attend any church. I have not found one that I really want to attend. But I have a friend that is going to study with me, which will be a blessing.

I was an Adventist for over 20 years when I heard Robert Brinsmead speak of Righteousness by Faith when I lived in New Hampshire in the late 70's. He had several meetings in that area. It was such a blessing and I am so sorry that he no longer holds to the gospel belief.

Like most Adventist my life fell apart and I guess I am just now getting it back together. It has been a long road. I do love to study the Bible, especially Galatians and Martin Luther's comments.

It seems strange to me that some people just seem to pass over the gospel as if it were nothing. But not on this site, and that is so refreshing, as I have found people that believe as I do.

Anyone may email me at RaynaKay@aol.com I know some of you did when I first found the site.
Again I truly do appreciate this site.
Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,

My mother attends a Presbyterian church in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Does that help any?

Patti

BTW, Brinsmead was also an influential force in my leaving the SDA church.
Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George wrote:
I guess I should have said, at what point do I KNOW that I am saved?

George, you were saved at the cross. YOU were saved at Calvary. God pronounced you not guilty because of the work of Jesus Christ for you. All you must do is believe that this is so. Do not look inside you for confirmation. You will never find anything worth saving in yourself. Your hope is in the doing and dying of Christ for you.

Christendom as a whole has sold a false bill of goods to the world. It has made promises it cannot keep. It promises a new life right here and now; it promises a change of heart today. But Romans says, The just will live by faith. Faith, George, is believing in what you cannot see. If you can see it, it is not of faith. Likewise our saving righteousness is not in us, but in Christ Jesus. Look to Him, George, not to yourself. If the Holy Spirit is with you, He will show you how hopeless a sinner you are, how badly in need of a Savior you are. And then He will show you that Christ is totally and absolutely sufficient for your complete salvation. It is a Gift, George, handed to you on a silver platter, as it were. Accept it. Your salvation is complete in Christ.

George:
Thanks for all the good words. And Patti where do you find all those verses that no one has ever seen before???? I like them.

I do too! You know what? They have always been there. But I never saw them until the Holy Spirit revealed them to me. I could quote John 3:16 by the time I was 2, but I never "saw" what it really meant until my eyes were opened and I saw that Christ is my complete salvation. Now I truly do believe that all who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life, just as it says.

God bless you in your studies!
Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Patti
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Patti,

I especially liked your comment, "Faith, George, is believing in what you cannot see. If you can see it, it is not of faith."

For, "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom. 14:23. I get a visceral feeling almost like nausea when I hear people -- particularly Ph.D.-level theologians -- try to SCIENTIFICALLY "prove" Christ's resurrection, try to SCIENTIFICALLY "prove" that a six-day creation took place 6,000 years ago.

Just can't be done. And any attempt to do so is, in my opinion at least, nothing better than re-constructing "the Tower of Babel," or even better, "the Tower of Babble."

For, such attempts are not "of faith," but "of the flesh," and "whatsoever is not of faith is [STILL] sin." They are human "works" in verity!

In faith alone,

Jude
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Jude. Reality is bigger than we can see or rationalize. It's hard to talk about it around unbelievers. And yes, I would say many SDAs are truly unbelievers.

By faith alone,
Colleen

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