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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Lift up the Trumpet and Loud Let it Ring! Has the Kingdom of Heaven Arrived Yet? Or Do We Have to Wait for the Second Coming of Christ? « Previous Next »

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Archive through February 24, 2000Jude the Obscure20 2-24-00  8:52 pm
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Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THERE ARE "FOOD FIGHTS" IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

Romans 14:16,17, NIV: "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

If the kindom of God/heaven were only a future and not a present reality, then there would be "food fights" in the heaven to come.

Paul was settling a "food fight" that broke out in the "kingdom of heaven" in Rome by telling them that this was not appropriate behavior for citizens.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GOD THE FATHER HAS ALREADY "BROUGHT US INTO THE KINGDOM"

Colossians 1:13, NIV: For he [God the Father] has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

This text is saying some powerful things:

1. The "kingdom of heaven" = the "kingdom of the Son [the Father] loves."

2. The "kingdom of the Son" is a present reality.

3. We do not receive redemption or forgiveness outside the borders of the kingdom of heaven.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THERE IS SUFFERING IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

2 Thessalonians 1:5, NIV: "All this [persecutions and trials] is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering."
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Judeóthank you! These are such great references. We are, indeed, living in the kingdom of heaven! Our souls have entered eternity with God, and we are one in him.

It's quite remarkable and astonishing and wonderful!
Gary Mayo
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot comment on so much, you have won the typing test, however, you are correct that much is the same two days after Calvary as it is now. Jesus did win over sin at the cross, but now we see who will harken to His call. I will.

I see in you, Jude, someone that wishes to be with God, and that is wonderful. But remember what Paul said about going to be with the Lord.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fortunately for SDAs, there are no commas in Koine. That's the Greek language in which the New Testament was written as opposed to modern Greek spoken today in Greece or classical Greek, in which the classics, such as Homer's "Odyssey," were written.

Why "fortunately"? Because without commas, SDAs can interpret Luke 23:43 any way they want, even if "the SDA way" contradicts nearly universal accord among biblical scholars around the world.

What am I talking about? The same topic:

"Has the Kingdom of Heaven Arrived Yet? Or Do We Have to Wait for the Second Coming of Christ?"

Translated into English without the coms (or the caps, for that matter) that we love so much, the verse in question -- Luke 23:43 -- reads like this (KJV):

"and Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today thou shalt be with me in paradise"

You be the Koine-English translator for the moment. Where would you put commas, if any?

Want help? Remember, tens of millions of good, trusting, believing, Christian people are going to be reading your translation in hundreds of thousands of homes and churches around the world, and you don't want to mislead anybody, do you? Of course not!

There are two options:

1. If you insert the comma AFTER the word "today," then you will be siding with the doctrine that teaches that your soul doesn't go to paradise before or when you die.

2. If you unsert the comma BEFORE the word "today," then you will be siding with the doctrine that teaches that your soul does go to paradise before or when you die.

Want a little help?

Before we decide, let's look over the shoulders of the planet's best "into English" translators to see where they are putting the punctuation marks:

KING JAMES VERSION translators: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD translators: "And He said unto him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise.'"

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION translators: "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

NEW KING JAMES VERSION translators: "And Jesus said unto him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION translators: "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

Get any help? See a pattern?

I see a pattern: They ALL put the comma BEFORE and not after the word "today." Meaning: the best biblical scholarship -- people who know Koine and the culture in which it flourished like you know the back of your own hand -- say that Jesus is here teaching that your soul does go to paradise before or when you die.

SDAs say, No!

What do I say? I think that in the New Testament the Koine word translated "paradise" is identical in concept to "the kingdom of heaven," "the kingdom of God," "the kingdom of the Son," "the church [ecclesia]," "the vine and its branches," "the sheep of the Good Shepherd," and "the body of Christ."

In other words, Jesus is telling the thief: "Today you will be with me in my church." Is that so startling? Today, 2000 years later, the living are in the church (paradise or the kingdom of heaven/God), the "dead in Christ" are in it, and the living (such as Enoch) who are in the heaven above where Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father are also in it!

What do you think?

Jude
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude
That was great!!!
Lynn W
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think they not only don't know the rules of simple grammar, but they take their liberties at rewriting scripture to fit their doctrine.
The SDA Clear Word "Bible" has Luke 23:43 like this: Jesus turned His head toward him and said, "I promise you today, when I return with the glory of my Father, I will take you home with me to paradise."

Mark Finley really blows it in his Discoveries in Prophecy series. He says it this way: And Jesus looked at that thief, and He said, "I say unto you today, this day that I hang on the cross, this day with blood running down my face, this day that it doesn't look like I can save anybody, this day that Judas has betrayed me, and the Jews have forsaken me, and my disciples have fled, and the Romans are crucifying me, I say unto you, this day, this day of my death, you will be with me one day in paradise."

The interesting thing is, throughout his video series, whenever he quotes scripture, they always show it printed on the screen, but the whole time he's saying this stuff, they never do. And the sorriest part is, when he's done instead of saying, "hey wait a minute!" like they should have, the people said amen! A huge auditorium of people just sat there. I guess none of them own Bibles.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2000 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sat through a number of the Net98 TV shows of Dwight Nelson (Andrews University SDA Church head pastor) and took notes (a habit of mine, wherever I go). He went so fast I couldn't possibly copy down all of his interpretations of the texts he used. But of those I did manage to get down -- the reference together with the interpretation (which is, as you know, always the official one) -- there was NOT A SINGLE CASE IN WHICH HE DID NOT MISUSE AND ABUSE HOLY SCRIPTURE AND SERIOUSLY SO. When my mother wrote and asked me what I thought of Nelson's presentations, I wrote back saying, "He played fast and loose with scripture." She never brought up the subject again, not wanting, no doubt, for me to point out the errors. My nephew, a "hardcore" SDA MD, wrote asking the same question, got the same answer from me, and responded to me in the same way -- dead silence. My family doesn't want to face the truth. All they want to hear is, "Oooooh! How great it is to be connected with the family of God all over the world and all listening to the truth that we have! Oooooh!" And if they don't hear that from me, they don't want to talk about it, and they certainly don't want to hear from me on the subject of conformity or disconformity to the Holy Bible."
Cas
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2000 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know just what you mean Jude, with the family thing and all. I am tied to SDA's on all sides of our families, and it can be trying, to say the least.
My 9 year old daughter came home from her cousins the other day, asking when President Clinton was going to make the law forcing us to go to church on Sunday!!! ha ha, just a bit of good old Historic Adventism!
Allenette
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2000 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the old saying? If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ......TECHNOLOGY! My dear sweet SDA mom bought a dish especially to get 3ABN, I presume to also get the current BAFFLEGAB meetings. Someone from Missouri came down here (TN) to put it in and she has been frustrated beyond belief when she had trouble figuring out how two use it. Mean old me, I havent gone over to help her out! (And she hasnt asked) I figure, if those people want her bu$ine$$, they can EARN it. Dont bug me.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2000 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems we're all agreed: God is not a downlink.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EVIL PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN?

Afraid so!

Matthew 13 NIV says, "The weeds are the sons of the evil one."

What weeds? They grew from weed seeds, and "the enemy who sows them is the devil."

Where were they sown? In the "owner's field." And the field's owner is Jesus Christ, for "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."

What kingdom? I never thought you'd ask! The kingdom of heaven, of course!

For Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared."

And so the conclusion is inescapable: The kingdom of heaven -- which is within us and all around us (Luke 17:20-21) here and now on earth -- contains "the sons of the evil one."

This means at least two very significant things:

1. That "the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof" and is NO LONGER THE DOMAIN of the prince of darkness! It was wrested away from him by Christ on the cross! This is no mere "foretaste"! This is the real thing! This is the kingdom of heaven in verity! We have God's word on that!

That's why Adventists are just plain wrong by thinking that they are but "strangers" here. For example, they sing, "This earth is not my home; I'm just a stranger here!" Very bad theology! For it falsely gives the victory to Satan and not to Jesus!

2. That nobody is saved unless he is already standing within the borders of the kingdom of heaven! This means you are saved before you start. It means YOU ARE SOWN WITHIN THE BORDERS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN! It means salvation is already yours and all you have to do is not reject it.

3. That you can be lost only after a lifetime of growing. And so I don't want to hear any more of this in-grace-out-of-grace-in-grace-out-of-grace-in-grace-out-of-grace-in-grace-out-of-grace-in-grace-out-of-grace-in-grace-out-of-grace stuff any more!

No more! You hear?

You're saved until you earn your own destruction by a lifetime of strenuous effort. Meaning it will take you all of your life to become lost. And when at last, at the harvest, you wonder why Christ's angels are cutting you down, binding you into a bundle with the other weeds, and burning you up, all you have to do is to look at yourself and realize that you were weed from your very beginning!

Or wheat from your very beginning! In which case you won't be burned, but will be harvested into Christ's barn.

And so God's precious blessings on every last one of you, for God has willed every last one of you to be saved!

Jude
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude, what a great summary! I have to admit I had pondered that "weeds in the kingdom of heaven" phrase last weekend myself! Thanks for analyzing it!

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