| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi everyone, Iím still mulling over all the info that flowed before my eyes like a mighty Mississippi. I got a new subject for you all to get started on. I donít remember seeing this specifically discussed. It is the difference between rewards and salvation. Iím finding that some people and SDAs in general donít know thereís a difference. A very good SDA friend wrote to me and said, ìWe saw that when we have done all that He has commanded us to do, we realize that we have done nothing to earn a reward. Of His own we have given Him. We have done only that which is our duty to do and our faith takes firm hold of His merits aloneî. ??????! ( that is the exact quote) Daniel/Revelation/Corinthians etc are sited as proof that we are judged by our deeds and accordingly receive our reward. Chuck Swindoll has an AWESOME, AWESOME study on Rewards V Salvation called, ìWhat it Takes to Winî. If anyone is not acquainted with his ministries it is called, ìInsight For Living,î 1-800-772-8888. You get the frustrating story of, yes you are saved by grace, BUT! A simple trip to any dictionary will tell you that a reward is NOT a gift, it is earned. Grace is just that, unearned, unmerited favor. Mom says that if thereís rewards in heaven sheís not interested in them as she will be happy just to be there. So you scholars run with this as I wouldnít be surprised if this rewards confusion isnít the root of the Investigative Judgement. Now for a problem of mine. When I left religion in í76 till about 2 years ago, I wasnít real interested in studying much of religion. Itís a dirty, rotten, awful, shameful thing to have wasted 22 years on nothing. I really regret this and it seems like an impossible mountain to crawl up to just try to re-capture a small amount of what Iíve wasted. When I see people like Lynn, so well versed in the Bible, it encourages me and discourages me both at the same time. Itís like, this is where I could be. Then I slap myself and say, ìwhoís fault will it be 20 years from now if I havenít grown in the Lord and knowledge and wisdom. TODAY is the day I need to focus on and not look over my shoulder at coulda, woulda, shoulda! Lynn... You remember the Taco Bell commercial, ìTaco Neck Syndromeî? Well, you really cause me, ìLynn Neck Syndromeî. Just you promise to keep it up, Okay! On the bright side, having been blessed with jobs that allow me to listen to radio/cassette, Iíve listened to so many tape sets over and over that if I were to split my head open a bah-zillion miles of wadded up tape would fall out. I have been a bona fide tape worm! Tapes at work are impossible to give total attention to simply because of the nature of construction work. People are constantly around me and then there are the idiots that walk or drive behind me in blind spots so as to force me to be aware all the time. BUT GUESS WHAT? Now that Iím easing out of the work force and into the home front and am able to study the Bible a little, it is all SO FAMILIAR! Isnít that wonderful!? My brain is like a sponge that sopped up 15 different juices, itís all mixed up. With some study I should be able to squeeze that sponge and have 15 separated juices come out! Some of the other studies that Swindoll did were a two set, 22 tape series on Hebrews. This set would be very goooooooood for a ìcoming outî SDA. Even better better than Bob Georgeís Hebrews set. A three set, 22 tape series on Romans is excellent! The Galations set is another canít miss set. There are the life of David and Moses sets that are so up lifting and finally, for those of you FAFers that need to smile more often is the Philippians ìLaugh Againî series. Please donít think that Iím Swindoll exclusive. I have a lot of Stanley, Kennedy, Focus, CRI etc. too. Growing in Christ......Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
No, I don't remember the commercial, but it sounds funny. Don't be discouraged. I feel the same way about my dancing, if I had stuck with it for 20 years, I might actually be good at it by now. I've got a lot of catching up to do. The time was well-spent though. I've had 20 years to learn & memorize scripture - my first love. | ||
| Lydell |
Now Maryann, since this is re-education time, let's get our terms straight. It sounds like what you are talking about studying is faith NOT religion. The more we study true faith from the word of God, the more likely we will be able to smell out the stench of religion and legalism in particular. It's just like with recognizing counterfeit bills, the breakthrough comes in being totally familiar with how the genuine article looks. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Maryann, Lydell is right. Fist of all, God redeems everything. Everything you learned as an Adventist he will transform into knowledge of the truth. Bible reading will become increasingly interesting and compelling. You will find the Holy Spirit speaking to you through the pages of scripture. As you read, the Holy Spirit will actually teach you. Ask God to protect you from deception and confusion. You will become increasingly aware of the truth and increasingly able to discern deception. | ||
| Maryann |
Lydell...Thank you for pointing my poor terminology. I appreciate the reminder, please keep it up, all of you. I have had this burning desire for some time to be able to witness to others, particularly SDAs. I have this fear factor that raises up at work but have been able to muster up courage to talk about (religious) things to a few. You have to understand, at least from my point of view, that you have to broach the subject a little different with construction types than with ìregularî people. I feel so awkward to start with but relax a bit more every time I talk to someone. Most people have noticed a change in me, and go kinda, whooooooa, so youíre into religion now. So I try to get them where they are at. I have so much to learn and am soooo thankful that Iíve had all the tapes to familiarize me with the whole Trinity, Salvation and simply the simplicity of the Word of God. Iíve been, go gettiní, self reliant, get it done myself all my life so leaning on Jesus is very difficult. Swindoll has spoken at length on the difficulties ìusî self sufficient folk face when it comes to trusting in God instead of ourselves. You guys just bear with me please. Iím really looking forward to graduating from kindergarden! I may disagree with you a bit on focusing on the truth so much that you will recognize the counterfeit. My husband, his family and church are focusing so much on their legalistic non Trinitarian ìtruthî that except by the grace of God they will remain blind. They raise their kids to study only their ìtruthî so that they can recognize the counterfeit. Guess whoís the counterfeit? Us!! I can do the same scenario With the SDA. I was taught to study the ìtruthî that we had so that I knew a counterfeit ( which was everyone else). My kids are around Mormons a lot, so Iíve educated them with videoís along with JWs, Scientology and some Eastern religions. I think itís imperative that we educate our kids to these other ìattractionsî. (And ourselves). My kids went to a Christian camp last year and were asked, ìwhat kind of religion are youî? They answered, îChristianî, well, what kind of Christian, again, ìjust plain Christian ì. Then the said, ìno no no, are you Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic etcî. Iím so thankful they know a little about other religions yet know their own Christian faith in their hearts. But unfortunately, like me, they have a little work to do to be able to actually do Bible study with a person. I guess my next mission is to make a better point on what I mean about Rewards V Salvation. I really think itís important. Thank each and every one of you for your support. Jude, did I ever get through to you. I must check my e-mail 40 times a day to see if you answered! I attempted two? Colleen... I just read your post. The Holy Spirit is alive, well and working overtime at our house. If he wasn't, I would never have found all of you. I'll have to share the story of how I got on track here sometime. I hope I'm understood about the above. If not I hope to hear!!! Growing in Christ.......Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
"I may disagree with you a bit on focusing on the truth so much that you will recognize the counterfeit." Understood. We need to spend time in the Word alone initially, so when we are confronted with lies, sirens go off automatically. Once we're well grounded, we can then study other stuff without fear of being persuaded as long as we keep coming back to the Word. | ||
| Maryann |
Got a bomb for anyone that would dare expode it. My 11 year old son asked, "if I was saved and killed someone, would I still go to heaven"? Those that answer YES, please explain..... Those that answer NO, please explain...... Un-resting.....Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
Here's a late night answer with about 60% of me working. Salvation is by trust in Jesus Christ as our redemer, not works. On the other hand, if someone decides in advance they are going to kill someone, I'd have to question the salvation relationship. What matters is the heart, not the outward actions, but the outward actions often reveal the heart. | ||
| Lori |
I say YES, he will go to heaven You can find your answer in the story of David. David obviously was a man of God. David committed premeditated murder. It all begins in 2 Samuel 11 vs. 1--geographically David is out of fellowship with God because he isn't with his army like he should be. A king was supposed to be with his army when the army was in battle. David was the king, the army had gone to battle and David had stayed at home! (anytime we aren't where we are supposed to be, we have stepped out from under our Spirital nature and stepped under the carnal) David operated under his carnal thoughout the entire chapter. 1. He wasn't where he was supposed to be 2. Under his carnal nature his weakness for woman was able to overtake him. (he already had three wives) 3. He took another mans wife and lay with her. 4. David tries to cover up his sin by getting her husband back to lay with her also (but Uriah is trying to stay where he is supposed to, with the army) 5. Uriah doesn't go home the first time, David gets him drunk (he still does not go home) 6. David commands that he be placed in a situation where he will die (vs. 15) Chapter 12--Nathan, sent by God, comes to David to rebuke him. Vs. 9 .....you struck down Uraiah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. YOU killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. And these are not even the worst things that David did. One time he disobeyed and 7000 people died!!!! A believer, saved by grace, can commit murder and will still be saved. When you step out of fellowship and your human nature is in control, you can commit any deed that a non-believer can. But you will not do it with out being disciplined!!!!! God disciplines his children. And, David was disciplined. Psalms 38 was written by David when he was being disciplined for his actions. in vs. 18 he says I confess my iniquity. He did what every believer must do to get back in the Spirits control, we must confess 1 John 1:9. 2 Samuel 12:13, David says, I have sinned against the Lord. The Lord took away his sin and Nathan told him he was not going to die. However, he was disciplined. His newborn died. And all the things that were stated in 2 Samuel 12:10-12 came to pass. He payed four times over for his sin (12:6) As a believer, we can commit any crime that an unbeliever can commit. It doesn't mean we aren't saved. It means we have chosen to walk under the human nature instead of God's divine nature. And, it means that whatever we do if we live through it, watch out, because the disciplinary hand of our Father will be upon us. BUT, when we step back under the power of His Spirit we can ride out the discipline!!!!! The stories of Davids life prove these things. | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Lynn and Lori, Next question. What if this person dies in the act of killing and does NOT have the opportunity to repent and ask forgiveness of God and man. Can he possibly still go to heaven? Still un-resting.........Maryann | ||
| Friend |
Dear Maryann, God does not just forgive sin. He forgives sinners who trust in His Son. And He forgives them completely. "His grace is sufficient." | ||
| Lynn W |
Thanks, Lori, I forgot about David. | ||
| Gary Mayo |
Dear "Friend" You are deceiving yourself, so why try to deceive others also? It does no good to preach the Gospel and not forgive your brother a small sin. You will have an empty lamp on judgement day. You post as a "Friend", so show that is so by extending forgivness to those that hurt you. If you will not do this, Jusus will denounce you, because he never knew you. I will pray for you "Friend". | ||
| Lori |
The parable of the prodigal son----Once a son, Always a son!!!!! If the prodigal son had died while eating the pigs food, before he acknowledged his sin, he would have still been a 'son'. So it is with Christ, we believe, we become heirs. Once an heir, always an heir. Our salvation is not dependent on anything WE do. It's grace! He is faithful to us whether we are faithful to Him or not. Another thing you must consider here is that some of the sins that we rate as 'more acceptable' are just as detestable in the Lord's sight. Causing dissension, telling lies, devising wicked schemes, feet that rush into evil......God considers these as detestable as the shedding of innocent blood. (Proverbs 6:16-19) I am in and out of fellowship with God more times than I can count each day. But I know if I die in one of moments when I have allowed my human nature to take over, I will still be saved, it won't matter which sin I have partaken in. Murder is a sin. Not loving is a sin. Slander is a sin. Stealing is a sin. Worry is a sin. The believers sins were paid for at the cross. If I go out and allow my carnal nature to get me in the circumstances that ultimately lead me to murder someone, then I have sinned. But I'm a believer. My sins were covered at the cross. PAYMENT DUE The payment due for salvation is absolute righteousness. I've done 2,359 good deeds and 3 questionable ones, but I've still come up with minus righteousness!!!!! I've done all the 'things' but I still don't even make zero, I'm still in the red. But by wonderful grace, Jesus came by and paid my "tab" at the cross, I didn't even have enough to leave the "tip". He paid that too!!!!!!!!! Isn't he wonderful???? Maryanne, find those promises that seal your salvation and claim them, then you will be able to rest in your faith in Christ. Lori | ||
| Lynn W |
I Jn 5:11-13 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. | ||
| Lynn W |
Now what about King Saul? The Bible says the Lord's Spirit left him. Does that mean he lost his salvation? Or does it mean he never had the Spirit IN him to begin with - maybe just with him - as in the Spirit came to guide and to make Himself welcome, waiting to actually be accepted, but Saul never did. WDYT? | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Uh oh, Lynn! You've gone and done it now. King Saul, huh? Whoa! Not only did God's Spirit leave him, but according to 1 Samuel: 16:14. "An evil spirit from the LORD troubled him." 16:15. "An evil spirit from God troubleth thee [Saul]." 16:16. "The evil spirit from God is upon thee [Saul]." 16:23. "The evil spirit from God was upon him [Saul]." 16:23. "Saul was refreshed and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." 18:10. "The evil spirit from the Lord came upon saul and he prophesied." 19:9. The evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul." Now what do you make of all that in the context with which you are dealing? Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann ----Next question. What if this person dies in the act of killing and does NOT have the opportunity to repent and ask forgiveness of God and man. Can he possibly still go to heaven? Still un-resting.........Maryann Maryann read what Lynn wrote down from the book of John carfully. I Jn 5:11-13 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. Eternal life comes from the Spirit of God that dwells in us. That is Eternal life. read my study on the PROMISE in Kingdom of Heaven Bruce H BH | ||
| Lori |
As most people view King Saul, he was only head saved not heart saved! But the only way to receive the Spirit is to receive Christ. So, King Saul, must have received Christ. Is what King Saul did, consulting evil spirits any worse of a sin than what David did in 1 Sam 11? | ||
| George |
Head saved...Heart saved? How does one know the difference????????!!!!!!!! I know people (not wanting to judge them unfairly) that are totally awful people in their carrying out of their Bible understanding. They have left a trail of battered broken people (even dead people) behind them. All for what? The God they worship from the Bible they have literally nearly memorized. These people are sincere! I'm so sick of religion. George |
