| Author | Message | ||
| LouiseS |
Where can I find Biblical scholar opinions on the two SDA bibles: The Clear Word (paraphrase in today's language; "not meant for scholarly study") and The Study Bible (significant "Spirit of Prophecy" comments on bottom of each page of KJV; marginal references to other EGW statements). For this particular research, I DO NOT want SDA or former-SDA opinions on these bibles. | ||
| Lynn W |
Louise, You don't even need a Biblical scholar, just lay an open Clear Word "Bible" on the table and an open real Bible (King James, NIV, NASB, etc.) beside it and compare any verse. Here's a few to get you started. Exod. 5:5 Exod. 31:13-16 Lev. 23:3 Deut. 5:3 Dan. 8:14 Is. 66:24 Matt. 10:28 Luke 16:19 Luke 23:43 Phil. 1:23 Col. 2:16 Heb. 4:4 Heb. 12:23 Jude 9 Rev. 1:10 | ||
| LouiseS |
Lynn, thanks for your comments, and I will look up those verses in The Clear Word - when I get one (hopefully soon). For my research, I also want an opinion from a non-SDA Biblical scholar on BOTH bibles. | ||
| Lynn W |
I am not SDA. I am not former SDA. I read Hebrew but not Greek. I am very opinionated :^) But I do try to base my opinions on scripture and let the scriptures do my speaking for me. I don't own an SDA study Bible, but I'll try to get one soon. Then I can be opinionated about that too. ;^) | ||
| Questioner |
I'm sorry LouiseS, but I hope you don't mind me making a few general comments even though I am ex-SDA. I see that no one else has commented on one of my favorite subjects. First of all, it would seem that any paraphrase of the Bible is changing the meaning of the text and is what the Bible itself speaks against. The Clear Word and the Living "Bibles" are equally bad. Second, this Study Bible you mention sounds a lot like the Scofield Bible that another religious belief had published. I am sure that most will agree that there isn't anything wrong with a person wanting some notes at hand while reading his favorite version, but others may wish to use something else. At least these don't change the words of Scripture. I had one of the KJV Bibles with the Richards helps in the back. They were interesting, but allowed the reader to ignore them if he wished. I liked that. I think that Lynn W hit the nail on the head. I particularly like the NASB. Those who compare say that it is hard to find a more accurate version. If you find anyone else commenting elsewhere about the ones you mention, please let us know. | ||
| Louise |
Questioner, if you have not already done so, you may want to check out www.watchman.org/clearwordbible.htm Dale Ratzlaff is a former SDA pastor. | ||
| Questioner |
Thank you, Louise. That sure was a dumb move on the part of the SDA church to allow a paraphrase Bible to be printed in their publishing house. Really dumb. What could they have been thinking? The devil is really working hard. | ||
| Breezy |
Questioner, You are right. The devil is working very hard to destroy the Adventist church. The hierarchy is diseased to the extreme. Why do you think Satan is working so hard to destroy this particular church? Hmmm. What do you think? Wendy | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, If I showed you terrible things written and published by the Mormon church (Book of Mormon) or JW's (Wacthtower papers), would you say "Yes, the devil is trying to destroy Mormon/JW church". No you'd likely use this as evidence that these churches are not of God, never have been and never will be. What some may see as a "end times" shaking in the SDA church with the devil trying to destroy this special "remnant"...the rest of us see one more move in a group which was off track from the start, failed prophecy about the 2nd coming in 1844, closed door of salvation in 1844, the face saving I.J. to explain away the failed prophecy, wrong view of the diety of Christ for many of their formative years, promoting salvation by works (I.J.) right down through their history, do I need to go on. No, most of us see this latest mistake of their's "the Clear Word Bible" as just more of the same old thing, a sign that this was not and is not God's one, true "remnant" church. There may be members of the true remnant people within that denomination, however, in spite of the denomination rather than because of it. In Christ, Bill Thompson | ||
| Breezy |
Believe it or not Bill, I agree with you that the SDA church is not "the" remnant. Rather that some of God's remnant are within this church as well as others. Therefore I believe Satan is targeting those remnants within each church so as to prevent them if possible from staying true to God till the end. Wendy | ||
| Chyna |
hmm, wendy, i have heard the same thing from my ex-b/f about SDA. that Satan must be working especially hard to destroy the SDA church because maybe they are doing it all right. then he talked about how everything experiences persecution, like the protestant movement etc. it is very very difficult for me to relate to SDAs because the thinking is completely different. for my ex to claim that the criticism from outside the church shows that the church has more truth is like criticizing the tobacco industry for their product. is the driving force behind the anti-tobacco movement there because the product is good? no. the argument is faulty. to me, i see Satan busy dividing the church. an issue here, and issue there, and we can keep all Christians from fellowshipping and praying with each other. there is power in the church, but with endless division we are kept from each other. issues i see as divisive within the SDA. well basically everything that discerns SDA from evangelicals: health msg, Sabbath keeping, EGW etc. to be honest, i feel like the SDA church has taken a tortuous path from the Bible. yes. there are true Christians in the church, but there are also doctrines in the church that hurt their own church members, people are 'disfellowshipped' whenever they state a different opinion. what defines the SDA church? is it God's love? is it unity in faith? is it a dedication to sound biblical teaching? through the SDA church the gospel message does get preached. however, it seems to get bogged down by legalistic concerns like proper observance of sabbath, and eating the right things. i have heard many opinions on EGW from praise to condemnation. but i would ask how would the SDA church be without EGW's teachings? could they go it alone, without Ellen? that's what i want my ex-b/f to do. to recognize that a lot of the dissonant doctrine stems from EGW's writings and influence and that when you read the scripture from a prejudiced viewpoint you can get anything from scripture. like racism. which is clearly against God's love. once ppl can realize that a lot of the fundamentally different church doctrines come from ellen, they should try to step away from those doctrines for awhile and read the Bible and put it into context. what did the church do before ellen's writings? they went by scripture. i actually use the interlinear bible in hebrew and greek for clarity and i read a few commentaries when i get mixed up. anyway, these are my observances from an outsider of the church. personally i get very sad for the SDA church because i feel like they are missing out by clinging to the 'special truths' they possess from Ellen. EGW could have been completely earnest, however there is no place in the Bible for her authority to supercede scripture or that her commentary is necessary for clear interpretation of the Bible. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Breezy |
Chyna, I agree with you! The General Conference and spiritual leaders in the church do focus on Ellen to much and do give her to much authority. Like I posted earlier, Ellen said if the members were reading the Bible as they should then they would not need her writings. Meaning that she hoped to lead others to a greater use of scripture when it had been neglected previously. It is Satan again who has caused her writings to be misinterpreted, misused, misapplied, and overused. I am 100% anti SDA government. I do not however believe that my belief system as practised by me is wrong. As practised by others who have been misled and are misleading others, very wrong. I am deeply sorry this is happening in the church. But, if I walk away and do nothing to change what is wrong, I am culpable as well. So, I stay and hope that by my witness, someone's life can be changed for the better. I do not however contribute to the misperceptions in the church. I do not believe that the doctrines are what is important anyway. It is the love of Jesus Christ and His incomprehensible sacrifice for us. Loving Him beyond belief, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Wendy, it really makes me happy that you have truly found Jesus. And I'm also really happy that you sound like you feel better than last night. I hope this means your migraine is gone! I've been praying for you today. It is such a priviledge for us to be able to pray for each other! I just want to share what two people I know have said. One person just this past week read Dale Ratzlaff's books, and suddenly the past several years of push-pull with the Adventist church have been resolved. This person said, "I finally realized that the church is based on a lie. If I stay, I cannot fix that. When people lie about small things, there are also very big lies that are being hidden. Staying to fix it will not work." The other person I want to quote is a dear friend whom I've know for over 15 years. This person is someone God sent into my life long before I knew important our friendship would be. We walked parallel but simultaneous paths out of Adventism. Her experience was different from mine, but God in his grace led us out together. We always had each other to talk to (a blessing I think most of you understand!). She has said to me for yearsórepeating herself to me yesterdayó"What we believe is important." That sounds like an obvious statement. But the truth is we often excuse sloppy explanations and scriptural interpretations because we like the doctrine those sloppy explanations support. Or we ignore unstable doctrines because we think they are not important for our salvation. The truth is, the doctrines actually tell the truth about the organization that holds them. We must examine the doctrines because they reveal the bedrock of the church. When we find Jesus, we find the Main Thing, as Richard Fredericks of Damascus Road Community Church says. But when we find the Main Thing, it becomes important for us to allow God to peel away the error we have unwittingly held. We can't embrace Jesus and ignore error, or lies, and live fully in the freedom He offers. I absolutely believe that God is sovereign, and he knows when he wants us to understand certain truths. I also believe he uses true Christians in churches such as Adventism to share his love. I further believe, however, that when we walk with Jesus, he persists in showing us the truth, and our job is to be open to it when He shows it to us. Doctrines ARE important. They tell the truth about a body of people who embrace them. They tell whether or not that body believes the Bible or someone's perverication of it. They tell whether or not that body truly believes in the biblical Jesus, the completed atonement, security of salvation, sola scriptura, etc. I also used to believe that the doctrines weren't that important. What mattered was our salvation. But I have come to believe that to identify myself with a church that holds spurious doctrines even if I don't believe them is to compromise my witness of truth. The most surprising discovery I've made is that when I decided to risk my complete identity for the sake of embracing Jesus without the SDA church, my experience with Him has deepened and changed and grown. It has been an astonishing experience, and it required my being willing to disentangle myself from my connection to corruption and false doctrines. God is in charge, however, and only he can teach and convince us of spiritual things. Only he can perform that most amazing of miracles: removing the veil from our hearts so we can actually see and embrace the truth. And as Max often says, "Let God be God." You are in His sovereign will! Praising God for hearing our prayers and knowing our hearts, Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
As someone said on another post tonight Colleen, the SDA church doesn't have a corner on the spurious doctrine market. If any church were out there that didn't have some problem, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit to help us discern false doctrine from true. Thanks for your prayers,(migraines gone for now but they pop up at will without regard to my wishes) Love, Wendy | ||
| Chyna |
hey wendy, i was reading 'foods that fight pain' i forgot the author's name, but (it was heavily in favor of vegetarianism, i peeked at the back cover to try to figure out if he was adventist or not, heehee). anyway, there are a number of food triggers that can cause migraines, some you wouldn't ever think of like: chocolate, citrus fruits. i can't remember the whole list, but it seemed interesting in approach... to eliminate them all from the diet and then introduce one at a time to see if food is causing migraines :). my friends have migraines, but they don't want to give up chocolate. stress also induces migraines too though :( in Him, Chyna | ||
| Breezy |
Thanks Chyna, I could sure use the reference if you could find it. I don't use chocolate(not because I don't like it,but I really never have a desire for it)but I still drink coffee and I am sure that is the suspect. Many different things have convicted me to give up coffee. Ellen was the first, but it was easy to ignore that from someone so long ago. More recently it is all the scientific evidence that keeps pounding it home(kinda like my headaches). I just am caught in a no energy cycle that is hard to break. Three kids make it kinda rough to get any sleep. When one goes down, another gets up. Anyway, I probably would get more rest if I stuck to posting on this forum in the morning instead of 1:00am. :) All of my issues involve self-control, which I am certain is a spiritual issue as well. By the way I enjoyed your other post about food in Heaven. Of course God could do that. I just think He has a better imagination than we do and can think of better things to eat than dirty old dead meat. (Speaking as someone who loves BBQ beef ribs:)) Thanks for your posts Chyna, I think you could be a great friend. I wish I could meet you in person. Meet ya in Heaven,eh? Wendy | ||
| Chyna |
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y5420728Y9993939/qid=965760986/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_z_2_1/102-8661897-9950555 those are the audiotapes for it on Zshop for $7.00 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609804367/o/qid=965760986/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-8661897-9950555 is the paperback, if the links don't work, then just type in: Foods That Fight Pain by Neal D. Barnard also, the title is longer than that, but that's all you need to type in. I'm glad that God has gathered us together here in our earthly life :) love, Chyna | ||
| Louise |
Wendy, Here's a quote for you from "Healing Spiritual Abuse": how to break free from bad church experiences (The Biblical Answer to the Wounds of Legalism) by Ken Blue - an excellent book, based on Matthew 23: "Those who find themselves caught in a SACO ('significantly aberrant Christian organization') should probably make a run for it. Such groups are usually so well defended against criticism, so completely in denial, that to attempt to confront them would only cause more harm to the confronter. To sum up, I would say that if abuse is minor and rare, we should probably shrug it off. If it is significant, we should confront the perpetrator. If it is systematic, ongoing, unrelenting and well defended, we probably need to leave." Louise |
