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Kristine Anderson
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just found this site, and am truly puzzled about some of the stuff I've read here...I've been an Adventist for 8 years, and have never encountered some of the things I've read about. Our church believes in salvation by faith..maybe different churches believe differently, that's the only thing I can come up with....I've never felt judged for anything I've done, or that I was in a "cult" that I couldn't leave, or that I was being coerced into anything. Just my $0.02 cents worth....
Maryann
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Kristine,

It sound like you come from a wonderful church. I think most of us here have come from an SDA background that was very traumatic. Please listen in and ask questions. I was out of any faith for 20 years because of it and am just now getting to study the gospel of the Bible.

A sister......Maryann
Kristine
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's what I am beginning to see, that something traumatic happened. I went back and read Geneva
Chinnock's story, and before I even got all the way through it, realized that I think it was the church's fault that she didn't even know, or was ever introduced to Christ!! It just amazes me that never happened in all the years she was in. Maybe I have a different view, because I wasn't raised in the church, just being in 8 years. What I'm wondering is, if some church's have a "legalistic" view of Christianity, and other's don't. Ours obviously does follow the Sabbath, but I've never heard a really adamant viewpoint that other people in other church's weren't saved. In fact, I've heard just the opposite from sermons, etc. Morris Venden's books also have for a long time emphasized salvation by faith. Well, I'm off to do more reading-I didn't realize there were any ex-Adventists going thru these kinds of things. I'm sorry that you had to go through what you did, and that you now have a faith!
Maryann
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kristine,

If you care to e-mail me at GoGold@Quixnet.Net I'll get some really awesome material in your hands. Yes, us that were third and forth generation SDAs have had some real experiences.

Hope to hear from you.....Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Kristine,

I praise God you have found Jesus Christ by faith while within Adventism. I too found Christ while within Adventism, but not through Adventism. I could not remain an Adventist, nor can I return to Adventism. There are many reasons; I will list only three:

1. I cannot belong to a denomination that requires Sabbath-keeping as a condition of membership. See Colossians 2:16,17. I believe it is all right for a Christian to keep the Sabbath, even as it is all right for a Christian to be a vegetarian or to be circumcised or anything else that is only "a shadow" pointing to "the substance" which is Christ Jesus. But as far as I can tell, shadows are important only under the old covenant and cannot under any circumstances be required under the new.

2. I believe that the doctrine of "the investigative judgment" or "pre-advent judgment" -- which is also a condition of membership -- would ultimately destroy my soul if I really and truly accept and believe in it.

3. The idea that the SDA church is "the remnant" is a blatant and unrepentant violation of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 1.

I do not judge you, and hope you do not judge me. These are but three my reasons. Do you have any responses to them?

With you in Christ Jesus, in our Holy Spirit, and in our Father,

Jude
Lori
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristin,

I am quite sure that you have not run across these 'problems', just being in the church 8 yrs., but you have a slightly different view 'coming in' as opposed to being 'physically born in' the church like I was 35 yrs ago.

The church has changed alot, however, it is still based upon the same unbiblical theologies. Some of the differences in churches are geographical, the south, were I was born, raised and still live has always held more conservative views than other areas, but even in the south, church tolerance can vary from one area to another.

The basics of growing up Adventist (and being third or fourth generation Adventist) is that even though the church may have changed those people (parents, aunts, uncles, cousins that grew up with the stricter views and raised you that was) still hold you, as their family member, against those rigid rules of Adventism.

All Adventist believe that salvation is by faith, (as an Adventist I believed and was taught that salvation was by faith and faith alone) but it doesn't stop there! And this is where Adventist tell only part of what they believe so you think they are not that different from mainline Christianity. The real Adventist view is: Salvation (Justification) is by faith; BUT, SANCTIFICATION IS BY FAITH PLUS ALL THE THINGS (laws) the Spirit will reveal to you, as you grow in Christ, and then you will be able to keep them perfectly, so perfectly that at the end of time you will be so perfect that you will be able to stand alone without a mediator during the time of trouble. The Adventist view was and still is that Salvation (Justification) is by faith, but keeping that salvation (Sanctification) is by faith plus YOU and what YOU DO!). The only things that I see that have changed in Adventism is that divorce is tolerated, jewelry (only wedding rings, in my area, necklaces, bracelets and other rings are a big no-no), makeup is worn by about two thirds of the women, competition in sports is ok, secular music can be played in the sanctuary, it's ok to eat out Sabbath at noontime (you don't have to work but its ok to have people work to wait on you, I suppose if you are putting it on a credit card you aren't paying out on Sabbath and that person would have been working, anyway), going to a movie is acceptable, if you aren't working for the church or church school, meat eating is still not really good, (but you will change before probation closes) BUT, if you forget to tell the waiter to leave off the bacon bits on your salad, YOUR EATING PORK! Pick as much off as possible!!!!
My parents used to take us to the lake for the weekend, we couldn't leave until 5pm and it was a 3 hour drive to Lake Quachita. So it was dark when we arrived, we would wake up Saturday morning to SIT by the water all day long, All day long we watched all the Non-Adventist enjoy the water, WE SAT. At sundown, which was actually just before the sun disappear and everything had a pink cast, we were allowed to jump in the boat, every one got about 5 minutes on the skis and then it was too dark. Sunday we got up and had fun for about 3 or 4 hours and it was time to go. I always wondered why did they even go? We'd go to Disney World, drive all day on Friday, so we could sit all day Saturday, we weren't even allowed to swim in the hotel pool that day.

Does this mirror any of ya'lls experiences on Sabbath (what a joy)?

When I was finally away from Adventist material long enough to get a foot hold on scriptures like Gal. 5 and Hebrews 8. It was such a relief to KNOW that my retained salvation wasn't really up to me after all!!!!!
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goooooooo Girl,

I couldn't have said it any better! That reminds me of my childhood, when I could walk my horse on the Sabbath BUT not trot or gallop it!! Mom was criticized for even allowing me to do that. I was so honest that I did NOT disobey because EGW said Mom would go to hell if I broke the Sabbath. We had one up on you Lori. We had the "Fringes of the Sabbath", meaning, we couldn't tear off running and playing at sundown, we had to sorta EASE out of it and that took to about 1/2 an hour past sundown!!!?? (that little rule included easing into the Sabbath a 1/2 hour before sundown on Friday) Hey, that means I must have credit in heaven as I had 25 hour Sabbaths!!! Can anyone better that one?

In Kristine's defense, her and her church do NOT believe in the investigative judgement.

Great testimony, I'm still wiping my eyes,

Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Everyone who contributes,

How many of you were raise in "traditional mainline" SDA church as opposed to "off shoot" or "self supporting" SDA church? Or had family or friends that were in either of the above catagories?

Ifn ya'll don't want to confess your sins publicly, ya'll can confess them privately to me at GoGold@Quixnet.Net. (some humor guys)

As for me I was 3 years mainline and 15 years off shoot or self supporting. This DOES make a BIG difference I'm finding out!!!!!

Maryann
Allenette
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

STOP STOP STOP you gals...these memories are giving me hives! LOL Did you also have to wear your Sabbath dress all day Saturday? I did. :-(
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Allenette,

I don't remember running across "Your" story. I'd love to hear it on the forum or on e-mail. Were you from "mainline" or "offshoot" stock?

Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2000 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Kristin

I myself had great memories of my Adventist
background. I left the Church because of its
teaching on Salvation and the investigative
judgment. I can not seem to find very many
Adventist that walk by faith and believe that the
Holy Spirit is with them and is there to change
their lives. I have a real love in my heart for
the Adventist people and I pray daily for them.

Bruce H
Kristine
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have not replied yet, because I am not able to stay on the computer long today--I'll be able to post tomorrow, though. (kids are on the computer and I'm helping my husband with some firewood outside...) Just thought I'd say that I hadn't disappeared:)
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Kristine! I loved the church. I truly didn't feel misused or hurt or angry. I loved my identity as an Adventist, and I accepted Jesus as my Savior while I was an Adventist.

I finally left because I realized that I could not be honest and stay in a church that was founded in deception and that still embraced unbiblical doctrines (investigative judgment, Sabbath keeping, etc.) Even if individual or groups of Adventists do not adhere to all the official 27 fundamentals, still the church itself does officially embrace and publish those beliefs.

If the church was founded on doctrines that are not Bible-based, on a mistake (1843 and 1844) from which most Millerites repented and from which William Miller ultimately repented, and on a false prophet who said God held his hand over the mistake in dates so people would "get ready", then remaining in the church would be like a Mormon saying, "I don't believe Joseph Smith's prophecies are binding for me, and I do believe Jesus is my Savior, and I can hold these beliefs and still stay a Mormon. There's no reason for me to leave."

Such a view on the part of a Mormon would disturb most Adventists I know. They would say it's hypocritical to say you're a Mormon if you don't believe it, or to say you're a true Christian and remain a Mormon.

I had to make my public life match my private beliefs. The freedom I've found and the security I now have I never experienced as an Adventist. Praise God!
Lynn W
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kristin. Welcome. Always good to see new people on here. I've been learning lately that there is an expanding group of SDA known as evangelical SDA who have far more liberal views on most issues. Sounds like your church falls into that catagory. The problem with it though, is that at the core of it all is the 27 Fundamental Doctrines, Ellen White, and the General Conference which determines the doctrine for all the churches. In order to be SDA, a church must adhere, at least in lip-service to everything the GC dictates. There is no separate (reformed) GC, there is still only one.

In order to baptized, one must still verbally agree to the 27FD and sign the baptismal cert. with the 13 doctrines. They must verbally answer the questions "Do you believe the SDA is the remnant church for the last days?" and "Do you believe EGW is the Lord's messenger for the remnant church?"

Ellen White was totally a false prophet, a plagerist, and a harsh, judgmental hypocrite till the day she died. That has been proven beyond all doubt so I won't go into all that now.
Some things never change.

It's not true that all SDA believe in salvation by grace, I've met many who believe in salvation by keeping the 10C. I've never met an SDA who doesn't believe EGW was the "Spirit of Prophecy." WDYT of her? Also, WDYT of the investigative judgment?
Kristine
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 8:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My goodness, I don't even know where to start!!!! Whew.....Ok, here goes! Jude- the Sabbath, to me, is one of the best things about being an Adventist. It made so much sense when I was introducted to it. (and I don't judge anyone, it's up to the individual to decide for themselves-if someone doesn't feel comfortable with Adventism, who am I to disagree with their beliefs?) . It just makes sense to me. Just because I keep the Sabbath, doesn't mean I forget about God the rest of the week, either. It just is so great to have a day to concentrate fully on Him. I feel that anyone who is introduced to the doctrines has the choice not to join the church if they don't agree with the 27 beliefs. They are given the chance to read them (like I was) and either agree, or disagree! The point that becomes sticky is children that are born into it...I guess I feel (and have done this with both my kids) is that they can decide later if they agree with what they were taught, and can choose for themselves. I've been purposefully NOT strict about a lot of things in the church, because I was afraid of just some of the things I've read here happneing to them (resentment about the Sabbath). I feel they should look forward to it, not dread it! If I'm going to be legalistic about it, it loses its value, to me anyway. I believe that those things (investigative judement, Michael the Archangel) are not essential to one's salvation - only how I feel about, and my relationship with Jesus is what matters. To tell you the truth, I don't feel I can say much about the Investigative Judgement...haven't really looked into it enough to understand what the church's belief is. This conversation is really piquing (sp!) my curiosity, though, will be definitely looking into it. Lori-I've never had anyone tell me yet that there are any other things that I need to "retain" my salvation...that is the part I'm really puzzled by. It's kind of weird timing- the Sabbath School quarterly this time is "Assurance of Salvation" and through the whole thing has been the emphasis of salvation on the merits of Christ alone. Yes, they (the church) does say that if you love God, you will follow his commands - this makes sense to me also. If I love God, and others I won't steal from them, kill them, etc. I know one thing, the things your parents did (your trip to the lake) was blatantly legalistic!!!!! and that they were wrong. Sounds like they were doing what the Jews did - they had regulated it so much, it was rediculously restrictive! I get angry just reading some of the things here...having to wear your dress all day??? The minute I get home, on go my jeans!!Jesus showed people how to keep it, even picking grain, healing etc. on the Sabbath. The question of staying in a church that is founded on unbiblical things is something I'm not sure about...I don't even know if that's true. Everything I've gone through to this point seems pretty biblical to me. I myself don't read a lot of Ellen White, because I feel that the Bible is what I want to concentrate on. What I have read of hers (Steps to Christ
mainly) is uplifting to me, but again I like to read the Bible. I guess the 1800's seems so long ago, I think that if the church I'm in now is following the Bible, then what difference does it make what the original was founded on...if it's Biblical now, it doesn't matter what it was 150 years ago to me. I hope that doesn't come across bad, I just don't know any other way to say this...It just seems that the Michael the Archangel, and the Investigative Judgement seem to be peripheral issues and in my mind not a reason to leave. I hope what I'm writing isn't too long...seems like I wrote a novelLOL
Lynn W
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I believe that those things (investigative judement, Michael the Archangel) are not essential to one's salvation"

This is so true, but according to SDA, they are crucial to your salvation. According to Ellen White, The very fact of not knowing about the IJ was enough to keep Jesus from returning in 1844.
She also said, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' Daniel 8:14."
And this is true, it is the "foundation and central pillar of the advent faith" "above all others," including the entire Gospel - the Diety of Christ, His death & resurrection, our salvation by His grace, etc.

"I've never had anyone tell me yet that there are any other things that I need to "retain" my salvation..."
How about Ellen White herself.
ì...in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience...î Selected Messages Book 1, p. 366.

"Those who accept the Savior, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or
feel that they are saved. This is misleading." p. 155.

Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. p. 312.

Steps to Christ - ìThe condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been, - just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents, - {perfect obedience to the law} of God, perfect righteousness." p.62.

ìTo obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor.î Testimonies vol. 4, p.
28

ì"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning.î ST 3-3-1898

ìHe [man] must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law.î Testimonies vol.4, 294

But what does the scripture say?
ìGod hath reconciled us unto himself by Jesus Christ...î 2 Cor 5:18
ìWe were reconciled to God by the death of his son...î Romans 5:10
ìAll our righteous acts are like filthy ragsî Isaiah 64:6.
ìClearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith'î
Galatians 3:11.

Kristine, have you heard about Satan being your sin-bearer? This is Ellen White teaching which is part of the 27FD which you must agree to in order to become a member.

ìThe ëfull accountability for sin will be rolled back upon Satan, its originator and instigator.íî
This doctrine from Seventh Day Adventists Believe (SDAB) doctrine #23 was taken almost verbatim from Ellen White, ch. 28 of The Great Controversy (GC), pg. 485;
ì...Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin.î

Lest there be any misunderstanding as to what the above quote means, notice in the following passages who becomes our sin-bearer:
ìChristís work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin, will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.î Patriarchs & Prophets (P&P) ch. 30, pg. 288.

ìTheir sins are transferred to the originator of sin.î Prophets & Kings ch. 47, pg. 591.

ì...the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed...When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.î GC ch. 23, pg. 422.

ì...the sins of Godís people will be placed upon Satan...î GC ch. 41, pg. 658.

ìThe sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused Godís people to commit.î GC ch. 42, pg. 673.

"their sins are transferred to the originator of sin.î Testimonies Vol.5, pg. 475.
Story of redemption pg. 402-3

Notice who will bear your sins. Of course this is in direct contradiction to Isa. 53:11 which says, ì...by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.î

John the baptist addressed Jesus as, ì...the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.î John 1:29.
1 Peter 2:24 says, ìWho His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree.î
Isaiah 53:4-6, ìHe has borne our griefs...He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed...and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.î
Ps 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

Who is this talking about, Christ, or Satan? The answer one chooses makes all the difference in who your savior is. In Matt. 12, Jesus accused the Pharisees of BLASPHEMY. What had they done? They gave Satan credit for the work of Christ. 1 Peter 3:18 says, ìFor Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust...î

Your church doesn't always want you to know everything. But just ask, or look it up, it's there.
Bruce H
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristin

Keep to the Bible like you said, but be careful
with the Lesson studies, they tend to quote more
from Ellen White then the Bible. I went through 6
lessons studies a couple of years ago, and went
through all the questions and counted How many
times they quoted the answer from, The Bible,
Ellen White, the comentator. Here was the
results, they used Ellen White 98 times, they used
the comentator 15 times, they used the Bible 45
times. Notice that if you add the Bible and the
comentator together you get 60 answers, as you can
see Ellen White is who they answere to.

My Advise Is that you Pray to the Lord Jesus for
guidence and wisdom. If you trust in him he will
guide you in the way of truth through his word.

Bruce H

BH
Kristine
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I can say, is that I don't read Ellen White, (except like I said a little from Steps to Christ)and was not aware that she said those things! All I know is that I KNOW who my savior is, and everyone that I know in my church believes that, too. Is it possible that most in my church don't have clue about these things? I will definitely be asking my head elder about these things you have printed here.
BRUCE H
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristin

By the way you are not here by accident, and Lynn
is telling the TRUTH.
Kristine
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tried looking up the Patriarchs and Prophets Chapter 30, Pg 288 and couldn't find the reference....I've got the hardback from 1958..is it different?

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