| Author | Message | ||
| Sherry |
Since leaving the Adventist faith, three years ago, there are a couple of things I have a difficult time with. When I became a Christian, I,for the first time, began to "really" study the Word. Two areas I have a difficult time with are, "predestination" and "an eternal conscious hell". I can find many passages in scripture that leads me to believe that Jesus died for all men. I cannot find anything contrary to an "eternal hell". Am I hanging on to old Adventist beliefs, because I like the way I feel about them. I believe God is sovereign, He can do whatever He wants. I see Him as my "Abba"- Father-Daddy. I believe He is merciful. Could a merciful God mete out an eternal punishment? Even to those undeserving of His mercy. I also don't think of God as one who would arbitrarily "choose" to save some, but not others. These are two things I don't constantly struggle with. However, they do come up,and then I am forced to deal with it again. I would sincerely appreciate anyone who might take the time to share with me what you feel the Holy Spirit has revealed to you. Scripture you might share with me, in reference to these two issues. Thank you, in advance. Your Sister-in-Christ. Sherry | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I still lean toward the idea that hell at some point will have an end. One reason is because of all the verses that indicate that only the believer can have eternal life. And then there is that passage in Malachi 4:1-3 that speaks of the wicked being ashes under the souls of our feet. Don't see how that can happen if they continue to burn. I also can't understand how the Lord will put an end to all suffering and sorrow if they are continuing to burn. As for predestination, I have to think that it is indicating that from the foundation of the earth, God already knew who would and who would not receive Him, but in His mercy still allowed them the opportunity to freely decide. Also, by His setting into motion the vehicle for salvation, he did predetermine that there would be saved people. I don't believe we can just toss aside the numerous passages that state that salvation is an offer to ALL men. | ||
| Sherry |
Thanks Lydell, for your response this morning, I really appreciate it. :) | ||
| Colleentinker |
I've struggled with the eternal hell question, too. I don't feel like I have it all sorted out, but recently I have had some new ways of looking at the question. Since Jesus uses the same word for "eternal" life and "eternal" punishment in Matthew 26:46, and since the references to eternal punishishment abound in the New Testament, I've had to think about the issue. I think the thing that really helped me to see this differently was realizing that humans actually have spirits that communicate with the Holy Spirit. I was taught that our spirits were breath, but the Bible makes is clear that there is spiritual life and death, and the Spirit witnesses to our spirit within us. I've begun to realize that physical life and death are different realities from spiritual life and death. Satan told Eve that she would surely not die. And she didn'tóphysically. But she and Adam did die spiritually the moment they ate the fruit. (And of course, they did eventually die phsyically as well.) Their souls were no longer one with God. They entered spiritual death, but physically they were still alive. And we are born spiritually deadóAdam and Eve's legacy to us. Our picture of a physical burning hell, I suspect, is only a metaphor for a spiritual reality which we can't comprehend because we are limited to three-dimensional space-time. I don't think the wicked literally burn physically forever. But I'm beginning to think that it's possible that the spirits of the unrepentant non-believers may suffer in some way eternally. Jesus said that when we accept Christ we have passed from death to life. (John 5:24) But we still die physically, even though we know that our spirits have entered eternity with Jesus. Our bodies won't be finally transformed until the resurrection. But our souls are. I think it's possible that the spirits of the wicked do suffer eternally, but it won't be physical, and it won't be anywhere to which we'll have access. Spiritual death is separation from God. If a spirit suffers eternal punishment, that does not necessarily equate negative eternal life. Physical death we understand. But spiritual death is a separate issue, and its definition is different from physical death. And I'm not suggesting that the spiritual death is conscious in any way we understand, since we have consciousness connected to our living, physical minds. It seems that it may be possible that a soul that rejects its Savior must suffer a consequence equal in magnitude to what it rejected. Since Jesus spent quite a lot of time teaching eternal punishment, it seems that we have to at least consider that it may be possible. I just suspect that the reality of eternal punishment does not look like what we've imagined it to be. Related to this was my husband's comment after church a couple of weeks ago. There is a regular contingent of mentally challenged adults that attend our church each week. They come regularly and sit near the front with their well-fingered Bibles, whether or not they can read them. These men and women are reverent and attentive. They listen to Pastor Inrig, and they sing and praise Jesus. It's obvious that they love their Lord. Richard said, "I think that their souls communicate with God without their disability interfering. And there's a promise for them in the Bible: it says that he who is least among us will be the greatest in the kingdom. And these people, in our culture, are the least." That observation made me cry. I have come to believe that our dead spirits come to life when we accept Jesus. (Ephesians 2:1-4) Spiritual life and death, I think, are quite separate from physical life and death. And since spiritual things are only spiritually discerned, (I Cor. 2:14), none of this makes sense to someone who hasn't experienced the birth of his own soul. It made no sense to me before Jesus changed my life. And even after He changed me, it's taken several years to arrive at my present thinking. (And I may be somewhere even different from this in a few more years! God never finishes teaching us!) Similarly, I'm beginning to entertain the idea that spiritual eternity and eternal spiritual punishment may not be definable in my human paradigm. They are spiritual realities. Eternity, after all, is not limited to space-time. Eternity is not just unending time; eternity actually contains time. Sorry, I think I'm starting to venture beyond my ability to explain myself. I can almost see your eyes beginning to glaze over! At any rate, my relatively new understanding of God's sovereignty gives me courage and comfort. He is just and merciful. He loved me enough to bring me life and love and to let my story intersect with His. It's wonderful to trust Him without feeling as if I have to explain Him. I praise Him for continuing to teach me! | ||
| Bruce H |
Sherry Be careful, you may not know it but you are judging God. You are saying that you will only accept a God that fits a certain Image that you have decided He should fit. This is making an Idol or idolatry. In this way you take control of God. I to really struggled with this one could a Loving God let people suffer for eternity and still be a loving God. But as I read the scriptures I became more troubled because as I read more of the scriptures I found out that I could not say for sure that there will be no Hell. I continued to think what if when God made us in His image that meant that we too are eternal beings (not Like God with no beginning, only God is eternal with no beginning or end), and God in His infinite Love has given us an out , all we have to do is trust in Him and we can have eternal life. I finally decided that I would accept God no matter which way it turned out to be. For if he is truly a righteous God of infinite Love, which I believe he is, full of wisdom and knowledge then He must know what is best for me and everybody else even though I do not think it is right. Isaiah 55:8,9 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. So even though I do not understand I accept the fact that Gods way are not my ways and I will accept Him not matter which way it is for I trust in Him. As for predestination. Rom 8:29 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son , that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Notice that it says for whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. In other words, God knows the beginning from the end. He knew before you were born if you were going to choose Him thus he foreknew, but notice what the bible says from here that those he foreknew, these He predestind TO BE CONFROMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON. Thus they were predestind to become like him, I believe this. Now as for God knowing the future, science is now saying that it is possible to step out of time. They have just confirmed Einstiens theory of relativity by taking three atomic clocks, they left one on the ground and then flew the others in jets at speeds faster than sound in two opposite directions one with the rotation of the earth and the other in the opposite direction to the rotation of the earth, , and they found that all three clocks had different times. The clock that stayed on the ground did not change at all but the clock that went with the rotation of the planet gained time and the one the went the opposite direction to the rotation of the earth lost time proving that Time is a physical property and it can be influenced by Speed, gravity and acceleration. The scientist are also saying that they think it is possible to step outside of time itself, this was in the Los Angeles times not to long ago. What am I saying, I believe that God is outside of time, and that is how He can know the beginning from the end. He want's us to have a free will, but He already knew if you would choose him before you were born so He forwknew you and thus you are predestined to be conformed into His likness. Ya!!!!! Bruce H b | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, I think we all can identify with your struggle on understanding a subject. We can tell you the conclusions that we have reached on any subject. But that knowledge is never going to be truly yours until God explains it to you directly, I don't think. I've found since leaving the church that sometimes I continue struggling to understand something, even after having looked up "all the scriptures on the topic". It's in those times that I have to realize that perhaps I have been starting at the wrong end of the question. Usually because I was approaching the subject from "but the SDA's said that this means this...." In the case of this particular topic, you have to first go back and find out exactly what man is......is he only body and "the breath of life" as the SDA's say? or is he truly made of three parts: body, soul, and spirit? And what is each of those? That may help you arrive at your answer. However there will be times when even that still doesn't help. If after examining the topic from all angles I am still confused, I have had to realize that it just may be that the Lord is not particularly interested in me fully understanding the topic at the present time. Usually that is because there is something much more immediately important that he is trying to teach me. And sometimes I am pursuing that other subject just to avoid looking at what he is trying to say to me. Or rather, satan is willingly encouraging me to pursue that interest so I won't notice that God is saying, "hello? What are doing poking around over there in that cabinet? We are working on this right now....." In those times I have found it helpful to have a little talk with him. I confess to Him my confusion and that I know the answer can only come from him. I acknowledge that He has promised to give wisdom, and I will be willing to accept His answer whatever it may be. AND that I am willing to wait now for his timing and will not take it out and worry over it any more. Then I place it in his hands and move on from that particular subject. From that point I begin a running list of comparison passages that I add to.....as HE points the passages out to me. And I promise you he will make it very clear when he wants you to notice something, for it will just really grab you! I just jot them down and go on. Eventually He comes back to the subject by prompting me to take out that list and look over what He has shown me. That's when suddenly it all adds up and I see that the greatest weight of evidence is on one side....then it becomes clear...then all the rest begins falling into place and peace comes. Funny how during this time he brings to light passages I'd never noticed before that reflect on or explain the subject. Maybe it doesn't work that way for everyone. But it has helped me. By the way, if you are troubled by that passage about predestination in Romans 9, the key is to go back to the beginning of the chapter and see what exactly is being spoken of. It is the nation of Israel....not God choosing one person over another for salvation. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Sherry, bless you! About the "couple of things I have a difficult time with," here's my take: Whatever the reality of a heaven or hell after death or after the Second Coming, we know from Jesus Christ's own words that by virtue of the Holy Spirit we do have the spiritual reality of the kingdom of heaven [or God] here on earth right now: "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God [or heaven] would come, Jesus replied, 'The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, "Here it is," or "There it is," because the kingdom of God [or heaven] is within you [in Greek the 'you' is plural].'" Luke 17:20-21, NIV. My point is this: If there is the spiritual reality of a kingdom of heaven within us on earth right now, then logically there is also the spiritual reality of a kingdom of hell [or the devil] within and among people on earth right now. As John Milton said in PARADISE LOST, "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." He did not mean this as a Norman Vincent Peale kind of "power of positive thinking" or "mind over matter," for John Milton was a devout Christian who truly believed in the Holy Spirit. He meant: If we have the Spirit of God within us we are walking in heaven, but if we have the spirit of the devil within us we are walking in hell. It is unimaginably more important to know and to live this spiritual reality in our daily lives right here and now than it is to have a "correct doctrinal position" on what the literal reality may or may not be after death or after the Second Coming. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus distinguish between the two spiritual realities. That is, He did not separate the spiritual reality of being in heaven (or hell) right now from the spiritual reality of being in heaven (or hell) at some future time. This is, or should be, a sobering thought. In other words, heaven is where God dwells, and if He dwells within the Christian community on earth here and now, then the spiritual reality of heaven exists on earth here and now. (Remember the "within you" part of the quote is plural in Greek and may be translated in English as "among you." But I do not mean to imply that there is no distinction whatsoever between "heaven above" and "earth beneath." We are talking about spiritual realities here, and "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24.) By logical parallel, then, if heaven is where God dwells, then hell is where the devil dwells. And if the devil dwells within you and your spiritual community on earth here and now, then the spiritual reality of hell also exists on earth here and now. (Nor do I mean to imply that are to avoid and separate from non-Christians by some twisted logic that says they are citizens of some "community of hell," as many SDAs believe, not by a looooong shot!) Finally, according to the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, hell and the lake of fire are not one and the same thing. In fact, the lake of fire comes after and actually swallows up hell -- death too, for that matter. For, "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rev. 20:14 I am fully aware that my scenario here does not resolve your theologically "difficult time." For the Bible also says, "Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15. And, "The devil that deceived them [the nations] was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10. But the "take home" truth remains: We all need to continually keep our priorities in order and to heed "the words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem": "Be not rash with thy heart or be hasty to utter anything before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few." Ecclesiastes 5:2. In other words -- as Lydell, Bruce and Colleen have all said in their own different-but-true ways -- there are things about God that we don't understand, that remain mysterious. We need to respect and even reverence these mysteries and to "let our words be few" about them, for there are a great many and we can walk into darkness if we try to go where God does not lead. We need to accept the fact that we cannot resolve everything in this life. And even if we could, to do so would be a very bad idea, for there would then be no need for faith. "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6. I realize from your postings that you are not presumptuous, but a sincere and humble baby born anew of God's own personal progenitive power, the Holy Spirit. And for this reason, I say this not to humble you, but rather to elate you by reminding you that the things we do know about God -- God is love, God is merciful, God is just, God is true, God is trustworthy -- immensely outweigh the things we do not know about him. This is precisely the way it should be. And therefore we should conduct our lives by always "keeping the horse before the cart," by always keeping faith in God ahead of understanding him. Susan described this glorious "horse" so well and her post to you in the Guest Book was so beautiful that I want to quote from it here: ìThe FINISHED work of the cross is our ëhope that lies within,í and this is cause for rejoicing. So, a great big Welcome aboard! ëMy hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness.í Your sister in Christ, Susan.î And so, ìRejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.î Philippians 4:4. Godís grace and peace, Jude | ||
| Cas |
Well Jude is a hard act to follow, as well as most who post on FAF. I was just thinking when I was deep into Adventism I thought I knew most of the answers to doctrinal issues like state of the dead, hell, the 2nd coming, prophecies, etc. If the Bible was not clear on a certain issue we always had Ellen White to get our answers from. Now I must admit I am not sure about most everything I was sure about. I have decided for right now, for me, it is alright not to be sure. What I do know is God is an awesome God, he is merciful, just and loves us more than anyone on this earth. Now my priority is to spend my time in the word, seeking the Lord and having a relationship with him. Maybe someday these issues will be more clear, but if not that's ok too! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Sherry, I just saw this old post and would like to share something I heard that really satisfied the, ìburn up/destroyî V ìburn for ever and ever eternallyî dilemma for me that we all have dealt with in one way or another. Now, I donít have any scripture to quote and Iím not trying to second guess God. As Christians we really shouldnít worry about hell personally because we KNOW where weíre going. For others we have nothing but hope and lots of prayer. Now the concept I heard.......îHeavenî is our being ìeternallyî in the ìpresenceî of our Lord and God and ìhellî is our being ìeternallyî ìseparatedî from our Lord and God. In other words the opposite of righteous is un-righteous, the opposite of good is evil therefore the opposite of ìeternal presenceî is ìeternal separationî. And that is the ìhell of itî! What worse hell could there be than eternal separation from God? Whether in a conscious or un-conscious state, separation from God IS hell!? And who says that God is talking about actual fire as we know it? Now for a cool definition of eternity. Pretend our planet earth is made out of steel. Every 1000 years a sparrow comes and takes one peck out of our steel planet, when the planet is completely gone, eternity begins. If that doesnít make your head hurt thinking about that, nothing will. Hope Iím not to way out........Maryann | ||
| Allenette |
Hi MaryAnn: I'm still trying to decide which would be worse, to burn forever, or freeze forever, as I just read a U.S. News and World Report on hell that mentioned Buddhism has multiple COLD HELLS. Think about it :-) Of course those heaven bound wont worry about it either way, but its kinda fun to ponder; we spend our childhoods being scared straight about burning, well, how about spending eternity naked at the South Pole instead? (It would certainly cause me to wail and gnash--er--chatter my teeth!) Perhaps the early Biblical writers, having never seen REALLY REALLY REALLY cold, Arctic, weather, could only define damnation as fire, which they HAD seen. Just my weak attempt at some humour. :-) | ||
| Rolaant |
Hello all, Here is my understanding of predestination from a Biblical perspective. God's predestination of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. As for the Biblical support for this, it can be seen on my website at http://www.gospeloutreach.net/tulip.html As for the subject of hell. Hell is a place of separation from God, which involves eternal conscious torment. Eternal separation does not mean that the sinner will not be in the presence of God. God is omnipresent, hell is part of His creation, so God is indeed present in hell. In hell the unregenerate person is separated from the grace of God. Scriptural support for the doctrine of hell can be read at http://www.gospeloutreach.net/bibhell.html | ||
| Allenette |
So much for humour....there wasnt much available IN SDA either....or OUT? | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Okay, Allenette, Here's looking at you, PK. I enjoyed your post. Your south pole image reminded me of Frost. Pun intended. I know you've heard it a thousand times, but once more won't hurt, do you think? FIRE AND ICE - by Robert Frost Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favour fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. There is a spiritual message here, even if it doesn't come from the Bible. Blessing your sense of humor, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Allenette, again, What's this nonsense about your not being welcome on this website because you're agnostic? Some of God's best friends are agnostic. Don't sell him short. Buy in long. :-) Jude | ||
| Timo K. |
Rolaant, is there any possibilities that the Bible teaching of eternal punishment means eternal separation from God by death? "By death" I mean that after punishment hell will also vanish. Rev.20:14 talks anout "second death". For me eternal tornment is against the Revelation of God given by the Bible. In any case I have no intention to try out Hell, since I am washed by the Blood of Christ. timo | ||
| Gary Mayo |
Hey Rolaant! Good to hear from you again! | ||
| Susan |
Rolaant, thanks for your wonderful explanations! I've been enjoying your website for some time now and as a fellow Reformed Christian I totaly agree with you. But I think it's important to investigate all teachings on a particular doctrine. I'm currently reading a book on "The 5 Views of Sanctification" and it's fascinating. While all the views have biblical backing, I tend to agree with the Reformed perspective. A marvelous book on the topic of predestination is "Chosen But Free" by Dr. Norman Geisler. He gives a great contrast of the Arminian and Calvinistic positions, while being very fair and biblical. Dr. Geisler is president of Southern Evangelical Seminary and is an expert in apologetics. Dr. Geisler's book can be ordered from www.christianbook.com. I highly recommend it for further study. Also, Rolaant's website is an extrodinary source of info. on a variety of topics. Nice to hear from you Rolaant. God bless you in your work to further the gospel! Your friend in Christ, Susan | ||
| Gary Mayo |
The SDA-EGW Historical Society Rolaant and I have a somewhat different view on predestination. We both think much the same on this issue, however, I think the doctrine is over-played in todayís Christianity. The New Testament does tell us that we are chosen before the world was made, that is true. But wait just a moment - What is time, and how does it relate to our understanding of God and His timeline or lack of one. God does not wear a Timex or even a Rolex. Time is a governor on our carburetor. Time is here to rule over us. Time does not pertain to God. Time is a human factor. Knowing that Time only affects us, and does not rule over God, how do we explain the predestination doctrine to each other? God knows the beginning from the end and He knows the end from the beginning, so knowing who will be saved and who he will pick (or who will pick Him) is elementary (for Him). The problem for us is understanding what He knows from our limited understanding. My personal opinion is this: Predestination is a very, very small part of Scripture and is easily misunderstood, and even misused by some to proclaim things that may be misleading or untrue. I do think Rolaant does understand this doctrine correctly, but I do think that some people studying this doctrine, even with Rolaant as their teacher, often times do not or cannot understand it. I would invite Rolaant to try to explain this doctrine to me and others. I would like to see the issue addressed here, only to ultimately show that the doctrine of predestination is complicated and does (at times) provide discord among brethren. If I am correct, and this doctrine tends to divide brothers, why proclaim something that does not bind us together? Ellen White was fond of things that turned out to be walls between Christians, but I am not. I say, like President Reagan said many years ago "Tear down those walls!" | ||
| Rolaant |
Hello Susan, I have heard of Dr. Geisler's book "Chosen, But Free". I thought he did a very poor job of describing the differences between the Reformed and Arminian views of predestination. While Geisler describes himself as a moderate Calvinist, in reality his misrepresentations and arguments against the Reformed faith make him out to be a moderate Arminian. I like Dr. Geisler and have several good books from him, but he did a very poor job with this one, I think, and I would not recommend his book at all. The only reason the subject of predestination sows discord is because not everyone in the Church likes what Scripture teaches on the subject. It is really not all that complicated ultimately. It takes away man's sovereignty in salvation and places it squarely in God's hands where it belongs, and as Scripture teaches. It is the sinful nature in all of us that rails against this Biblical teaching. Truth often has a way of dividing. Should truth not be proclaimed for fear of causing division? I think not, even though that is how many Christians today seem to think. Let us unite around the truth of God's Word, not around what is expedient. Gospel Outreach Ministries online http://www.gospeloutreach.net/ | ||
| Susan |
Rolaant, can you recommend a better book on the subject? I thought Geisler's was good, but I'm not an expert, just an eager student. The book seems to be a bit confusing on his position. I thought he was fair to both sides though. It's been a while since I read it. Enjoyed it, but would love to hear if there's something better out there. Sorry to mislead anyone. How do you feel about Francis Schaffer? I've read a few things by him and think he's wonderful. Am I off on my opinion? Does R.C. Sproul have a good book on the subject of predestination? I'm sure he does but I haven't read much by him. Anyway, thanks for your input! God bless, Susan |
