| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
Kristine, we once attended a Bible study lead by an SDA. We kept telling him about Ellen White & he kept saying, he's never heard of her. So we encouraged him to ask his pastor. He came back & quoted his pastor as saying, "You'll never hear Ellen White from me, and you'll never hear Ellen White from my pulpit." Then we visited his church. In the church bulletin, was the list of adult SS classes. One of which was an Ellen White book with the name of the class teacher. I showed it to our friend and said, "isn't that your pastor's name?" He agreed. Then we went into the service. It was nothing more than 45 minutes of the youth reciting Ellen White (DOA chapter 81 in its entirety) from memory. I seriously doubt those kids could quote half that much scripture. But technically, we did not hear "Ellen White" once from the pastor or the pulpit. Then we went back to the local church, and realized that every time the pastor says, "That was from the spirit of prophecy," or "A great Bible scholar once said..." or even "we've been told...", it's ALL Ellen White. It just took us a while to catch on. You say yourself you don't read much Ellen White, so naturally you wouldn't recognize it as easily, but if you read it as much as I do, you would recognize that the vast majority of what you hear from the pulpit is Ellen White. My ex-SDA friend told me that since the days of Desmond Ford, they are not allowed to say the actual name of Ellen White from the pulpit, so most of their own people are being deceived like this guy was. Yet they are still required to use a minimum of Ellen White from the pulpit. Also if you check your SS class quarterly, you'll find it relies mostly on Ellen White. Here's something from page 52 of Steps to Christ, where Ellen White criticizes people for holding an erroneous doctrine, ìSome seem to feel that they must be on probation, and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But they may claim the blessing of God even now.î Now where do you suppose they got this strange idea? From Ellen White herself. ìGod allows men a period of probation...î P&K pg. 276. ìIn these final hours of probation for the sons of men...î P&K pg. 716. ìJesus has purchased redemption for us. It is ours; but we are placed here on probation to see if we will prove worthy of eternal life.: Testimonies vol. 1, pg. 199. This ìTestimonyî begins with the words, ìI was shown,î then later, ìI was also shown.î By this she is claiming that these things were given to her by visions from God. Now if you'll look for the word probation in your concordance, you'll see there's no such thing. Then study the difference between probation & pardon. | ||
| Lynn W |
Kristine, You're so right, in that version, it's on page 371, in the middle of the 2nd to the last paragraph. Adventist publishers keep reprinting her books under so many different titles, it's hard to keep up with them all. This is another attempt at deception. They say she is the most prolific female author, when in fact she didn't write half as many books as they say. I've read and heard that she authored 26, 40, 55, 65, 66, and 85 books, depending on when the statement was written. I've seen 5 different titles for the Great Controversy alone. Now there's an Ellen White "complete works" CD which boasts that she wrote "over 100 books." It's interesting though, all but the first 2 dozen books were "written" post mortem. | ||
| Lynn W |
BTW, so glad to see you're really looking that stuff up. The Lord is leading you out of the darkness and into the truth. Let me know if there are any others you can't find. | ||
| Kristine |
I did look up the one in Steps to Christ...we went out to dinner, and it's almost time for bed, so this will be quick--the quote in STC you quoted I think was taken out of context...the rest of the paragraph reads:.....perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of.....(further down)..we have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations......If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Savior, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." | ||
| Lynn W |
How can you have it both ways? Is your salvation dependent on perfect obedience to the law, or faith in Christ? This is one of many issues on which Ellen White took both sides. But she wrote so much more in favor of salvation by works, that her writings weigh much more heavily on that side. | ||
| Lynn W |
Here's some more of her conditions to salvation. Counsels on Diet and Foods (CDF): ìAt the time the light of health reform dawned upon us, and since that time, the questions have come home every day, ëAm I practicing true temperance in all things?í ëIs my diet such as will bring me in a position where I can accomplish the greatest amount of good?í If we cannot answer these questions in the affirmative, we stand CONDEMNED before God, for He will hold us all responsible for the light which has shone upon our path.î p. 19-20. ìGod demands that appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are no good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people.î p. 36. ìGrains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.î p. 314. ìIs it not time that all should aim to dispense with flesh foods? How can those who are seeking to become pure, refined, and holy, that they may have the companionship of heavenly angels, continue to use as food anything that has so harmful an effect on SOUL and body?î p. 380. ìThe more largely flesh composes the diet of teachers and pupils, the less susceptible will be the mind to comprehend spiritual things.î p. 395 ìLet not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat.î p. 399 ìThe light God has given on health reform IS FOR OUR SALVATION AND THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD.î p. 461. And in Testimonies vol. 2, pg. 538. ìMothers, instead of seeking to give your daughters a musical education...Teach them all the mysteries of cooking. Show them that this is a part of their education and ESSENTIAL FOR THEM IN ORDER TO BECOME CHRISTIANS.î A simple verse comparison should give a clear picture of what Jesus and Paul thought of the subject. Matt. 14:16-19; 15:11-17; 34-37; Mark 6:38-42; 7:15-19; 8:7-8; Luke 5:4-7; 9:13; 10:8; 22:14-15; 24:41-43; John 6:5-11; 21:9-13; Rom. 14:1-4, 10-20; 1 Cor. 10:25-28; Col. 2:16. 1 Tim 4:1-5 calls this teaching ìdoctrine of demons.î Besides eating fish, as a Jew, Jesus ate the Passover feast which by commandment included lamb - Compare Ex. 12:3-8 with Luke 2:41-42, and John 2:23. So, did Christ have an enfeebled intellect? ì...spices, butter, cheese...do their work of deranging the stomach... and enfeebling the intellect.î Testimonies vol. 3 pg. 136 ìBehold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good." Isaiah 7:14,15 Notice the contradictions to Godís word: ìCheese is wholly unfit for food.î CDF p. 368 ìNow Jesse said to his son David, ë...Take along these ten cheeses to the commander of their unit.íî 1 Samuel 17:17-18 ìThey also brought wheat and barley, flour and roasted grain, beans and lentils, honey and curds, sheep, and cheese from cows' milk for David and his people to eat.î 2 Samuel 17:28-29 ìThe Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch or taste the flesh of dead animals.î CDF p. 380. ìWherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?î Col 2:20-22 ìEggs should not be placed upon your table. They are an injury to your children.î Testimonies vol. 2 pg. 400 ìIf a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone?...Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give GOOD gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father....î Luke 11:11-13 ìGod did not provide for the flesh of dead animals to compose the diet of man.î CDF pg. 410. ìAnd the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying...These are the beasts which ye shall eat...î Lev 11:1-2. ì...thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee...î Deut. 12:15. ìGod granted their desire, giving them flesh, and leaving them to eat till their gluttony produced a plague.î CDF 148 ìWhile the meat was yet between their teeth, BEFORE IT WAS CONSUMED...the Lord smote the people with a very great plague...î Num. 11:33. Galatians 1:6-9 says,ìI marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.î Has Ellen White preached ìanother gospelî? Look at her quote from page 75 of Counsels on Diet and Foods: ìThe Lord has given instruction that the gospel be carried forward; and the gospel includes health reform in all its phases...The gospel of health is to be firmly linked with the ministry of the word. It is the Lordís design that the restoring influence of health reform shall be a part of the last great effort to proclaim the gospel message.î pg. 75. Notice, of course, that no supporting scripture is offered. Search the entire Bible. You will not find any ìgospel of health.î Any such gospel is ìanother gospel.î Every New Testament occurrence of the word health can be found in the following two verses: Acts 27:34; 3 John 1:2. | ||
| Lydell |
Welcome Kristine. My husband and I were also in the SDA church for 8 years. We also didn't ever read EGW for most of the time. Looking back we realize that was mistake, for had we been reading her stuff, we would have recognized the error there much sooner probably. The problem is that, as Lynn has pointed out, whether you are directly reading her or not, you are constantly hearing EGW quotes. I would encourage you to check that out for yourself by keeping a list of EGW compared to the Bible quotes. You won't generally here "EGW says" but rather it will be something like, "the pen of inspiration", "my favorite author", "the pen of wisdom", "in the Testimonies", "the Spirit of Prophecy says", or "the sure word", or perhaps you will just notice that the wording seems somewhat stilted or vaguely old fashioned in some way. Once you get a feel for it, you will notice many many more that have been going over your head up to this point. Our experience was that there were very very few SDA who could answer the simple question, "are you saved, will you go to heaven?" with a direct, "yes I AM saved, yes I WILL be in heaven." And the problem goes back to that doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that you know nothing about as yet. You see, EGW has said that she "was shown" by God that when we confess our sins they are actually transferred to heaven and sort of stored up there to be place back on us if we reach the moment of death with unconfessed sins. That, of course, means that you would then be lost. This is why, in the quote Lynn has already sighted, EGW says that we must never be taught to say that we are saved. "The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement. ...In the great day of final award, the dead are to be 'judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works' (Rev. 20:12). Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven." (Pat. and Prophets, p. 357.) "And the blood of Jesus, his son purifies us from every sin." I John 1:7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the lord will never count against him." Romans 4:7-8 "Instead of...Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming." Test. vol. 1, p. 58. "Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Early Writings, p. 253. "When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'it is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:30 "The point of what we are saying is this; We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man." Hebrews 8: 1,2 written in 60 AD "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:12 notice that here too the wording is of a completed work. He had already entered the most holy place...that is the place behind the veil, when he returned to heaven at his resurrection. I've heard the denomination try to tap dance around the "I was shown" statements by saying "Well, she was growing in her understanding just as we all are" or, "well, she never claimed to be a prophet." But you know, we aren't claiming to be shown these things in vision as she did. You just can't make those claims when you read these comments of hers on the subject, "The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 30. "We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy...God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy." Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298. If you are unaware "the Spirit of Prophecy" and "the Testimonies" in the SDA denomination ALWAYS refers to the books written by Ellen White. | ||
| Susan |
Welcome Kristine! Glad you're here. I hope you find this site to be a blessing. Lynn, thanks for your wonderful research. Wow! I can always count on you to come through with the evidence. I want to comment on one of the teachings of EGW. In an earlier post Lynn, you pointed out EGW's unbiblical and frankly, heretical teaching of Satan as our sin bearer. The quotes you gave are great examples of how Satan has subtly influenced adventism. This is no little issue though! If Satan was the sin bearer and not Christ (I'm asuming that it can be only one)then who is the Messiah? If you take away this one aspect from Jesus, why did He come? How does his death save us? If satan bears our sins then isn't that teaching that he has more power/importance than Christ? If we try to claim that Jesus wasn't the Christ, isn't that considered an ANTICHRIST position? See 1John. The more I study the holy bible the more convinced I am that adventism's doctrines are not only unbiblical but blasphemous. Jesus Christ was God incarnate! He was the unblemished Lamb of God. HE ALONE died for and took on our sins. HE ALONE brings salvation. We can only come to the foot of the cross empty handed. We can bring NOTHING to the salvation process. (not sabbath keeping or any other "work") Here's another little SDA teaching about Christ that you may want to comment on. EGW taught that Jesus took on our sinful nature (Lynn, perhaps you could give this reference?) This teaching makes me want to flip out. The more I think about it, the more awful EGW's teachings are! She has totally changed who and what Jesus was. Isn't this how ALL heresies and Cults begin? They all start by altering who the true Jesus was/is. Let's see, EGW has claimed that Satan is our sinbearer, and that Jesus had a sinful nature. Are there any other claims she made that mess with the nature of Jesus Christ? Shouldn't the fact that 1 thing has been altered be enough? Anyway Kristine, I hope I haven't come across to strong and driven you off. I just feel very passionately about defending Jesus Christ. I'm sure you follow the Jesus of the bible. But I'm curious about how you can participate in a denomination that has such false teachings at their core. Their doctrines are based on and founded on a false prophet's unbiblical teachings. They haven't renounced her. They haven't changed their statement of faith. Why is this? Also, you've mentioned how important the sabbath is to you. I think your devotion is to be commended. It's great that you want to worship God all of the week too. To have a relationship with Jesus and to rest in Him as our "Sabbath" rest is to give every breath of our lives to Him in praise. For me, the Sabbath is not a day but a relationship with the giver of life. An opportunity to continualy (every moment of my life) rest in the finished work of the cross. I hope that your sabbath and your relationship with God, bring you the same joy and assurance of salvation that I think most of us at this forum have. Bruce had the best advice when he said "pray to the Lord Jesus for guidance and wisdom". Remember that Jesus will reveal all truth, because He is Truth! God bless, Susan | ||
| Lori |
I guess you can all see, from this dear lady, Kristin, who has been so sweet to share her experience in the church, (I'm glad that you are having a wonderful experience there) the new tactics of the Conference!!! It is very apparent that new converts in Adventism in the last decade have little or no knowledge of where their information comes from. I have a small re-publication of EGW's that has no authors name on it. It contains on the cover instead the names of those involved as editors with a small quote of EW's on the back cover, her name is in very small letters. I'm constantly amazed at the extent the church conference will go to, to hide the errors of the past. The newest one appears to be "who is Ellen White?" | ||
| Lynn W |
Yes, yes, yes! Lydell, Susan, & Lori. You guys (gals) are right on the money. I noticed something else. Whenever an SDA book is quoting anyone other than EGW, they ALWAYS give the authors name & the title of the book (that's required by law). But when they quote EGW (which is frequent) they say things like "my favorite author wrote," "a great Bible scholar once said..." etc. This never fails to be true. And to tie what Lydell said about transferring our sins to Satan the sin-bearer, Ellen White taught that our sins stay in Heaven till judgment day, then they are placed on Satan during the "final atonement" (a totally unbiblical phrase). "it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement." (EGW) I Jn 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." According to EGW, the atonement didn't even begin until 1844. "Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Early Writings, p. 253. But here again we have EGW talking out both sides of her mouth at once. On the one hand she teaches that Jesus never intended to come to earth in 1844, that was Miller's mistake, He just went into the Holy of Holies then and began the atonement. On the other hand, she taught that His original plan was to come to earth in 1844, but He didn't because of the ignorance of the people in not knowing about the 1844 prophecy. But the reason they didn't know about it was because god himself covered up and hid the mistake with his hand from the very people who were studying so hard to learn it. So Ellen White's god was a prankster who prevented his people from learning the truth, then punished them for their ignorance by not coming to earth. And Susan, you asked the very question I've been wondering for years. Why did the SDA jesus have to die? They teach that he came to earth to teach us how to live by being our example, but I have yet to come across anything in their writings which tell what he accomplished by dying. The SDA jesus did not bear our sins for us - that will be done by Satan. The SDA jesus did not finish the atonement - that's future. The SDA jesus does not have the power to keep us saved - we have to do that ourselves. Lori, I've got a few copies of well-known EGW books with no name on them either, such as Desire of Ages. It seems they are becoming more and more embarassed by her, but they refuse to give her up - that's idolatry. I'm not saying every SDA is an idolater - there are some who don't know anything about her. But those who insist on defending her no matter what, yet by their own admission, have hardly ever read her works, they are the ones who are idolizing her. And those who reject Ellen White, but stay in the church, don't know much about their own church's teachings. | ||
| Lynn W |
Medical Ministry pg. 181 And S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7A pg. 450 "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted." Sounds like a bad rendition of Heb. 2:18, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7A pg. 452-453 And The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. And The Signs of the Times 07-30-02 "Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature." | ||
| Kristine |
I'm not ignoring you guys!...I only have a couple of her books at my house, am going to the church library tonight to check some of the books out to check the references you mentioned. I still (sorry for being stubborn*smile*) think that the quote from page 63 of STC was taken out of context. If you read the whole thing, it is obvious to me that she means that we are accounted righteous because of what He did while here, not because of what we do. You guys aren't driving me off, but there is a lot here, and I don't have a lot of time for the computer, so will be a little slow in responding here-well, I'm off again, to go to our prayer meeting. Later! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Kristine, Hi, again. The reason I haven't posted for the past few days is that my darling daughter has just finished a three-day visit with me here. She's a student at the University of Washington, Seattle. I took her to the Getty Center in Santa Monica, the Long Beach Aquarium, the Norton Simon Museum of Art in Pasadena, a tour of UCLA and environs, and Trinity Evangelical Free Church in Redlands for Sunday services. She's a great kid, and I love her like I love myself. What a pleasure it is to talk to you through the Internet. The Internet may in fact turn out to be something that "does in" Adventism for many Adventists. If that's true and if you want to stay inside the SDA ark of so-called safety, then maybe you shouldn't read this uncontrolled website any more. That's up to you, of course. And I for one certainly want to "hang in there" with you until these matters are resolved, for they are indeed matters of personal salvation, even though they may appear to be peripheral. I would second what Lynn, Susan, Colleen, Bruce and others have already said. I want, though, to tackle another subject now. I believe that one reason SDAs have such a hard time believing in their own salvation and suffer such doubt and agony over being "not saved" is this: They don't really believe that they are living as born-again citizens of the kingdom of heaven on earth. They believe that the kingdom of heaven exists for Christians only in the future after Jesus Christ has come in the clouds. They are so benumbed by the teachings of Ellen G. White, that they are totally unaware that their belief is totally unscriptural and even anti-scriptural. What do you believe? Do you believe that the kingdom of heaven only exists in the future after the Second Coming of Christ? Or do you believe that it exists here and now on earth for those who have been born (or better, reborn) into it by the process of the new birth? This is no "side issue." It is absolutely fundamental to the assurance of your salvation in Christ. For, there are only two competing kingdoms on earth: (1) The kingdom of the heaven (light) of our God Jesus Christ in the form of His Holy Spirit and (2) the kingdom of the world (darkness) of Satan. And since there are two and only two kingdoms, if you do not accept citizenship in the kingdom of heaven on earth here and now, then you are automatically relegated to citizenship in the kingdom of the world and of darkness and of Satan. Strong language, I agree, but totally scriptural. For example, Matthew 11:10-12, NIV. Jesus is speaking to a crowd who had gone out into the desert on the banks of the Jordan river just a bit north of the Dead Sea. "This [John the Baptist] is the one about whom it is written: "'I will send my messenger [John] ahead of you [Christ Jesus], who will prepare your [Christ's] way before you.' "I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAS BEEN FORCEFULLY ADVANCING and forceful men lay hold of it." Now I would submit to your excellent and independent judgment, Kristine, this proposition: If Christ's kingdom of heaven is only future, then how could it have been "forcefully advancing" ever since the baptism of Christ by John in the Jordan river? You see, the SDAs of today are behaving exactly as the Pharisees of old behaved, in word and in deed, and they've been behaving that way from the time of William Miller in 1844 until now. More strong language? Yes, but again totally scriptural. For listen to this passage, again quoting Jesus in Luke 17:20-21, (NIV): "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God [where God (Immanuel) dwells, there is heaven without exception] would come, Jesus replied, 'The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, "Here it is," or "There it is," because the kingdom of God is within [and among] you.'" If you need me to prove from Scripture that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are identical, I will be happy to do so. But the identities do not end there, because the New Testament always equates the "kingdom of heaven" with the "vine with its branches," the "Good Shepherd with his sheep," and similar depictions. Furthermore, nearly all of the parables in Matthew spoken by Jesus start out like this, "The kingdom of heaven is like ...." and they ALWAYS refer to situations that occur ONLY here and now on earth, and NOT in the later kingdom of heaven in which Christians will live when Jesus comes "in the clouds." For example, Matthew 13:24 (NIV): "Jesus told them another parable: 'The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, "Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?" "An enemy did this," he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time will will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"'" Now, again, Kristine, I submit to your excellent and independent judgment this proposition: If, as the SDAs have it, the kingdom of heaven can only exist after Christ has come in the clouds, then how can you have AN ENEMY SOWING WEED SEEDS IN HEAVEN? This is no minor point, but an absolutely essential one. Understanding that by virtue of your being born again into Christ's kingdom of heaven on earth and growing up in it as a full citizen assures you of your permanent salvation here and now. Thus, you do not have to tremble and quake and dither -- as EGW did and as she urged others to do -- about the security of your salvation. You can say, "I am saved!" You can say, "I am a branch bearing good fruit on Christ's vine." You can say, "I am a sheep in the fold of the Good Shepherd." You can say, "I'm already living in heaven." This is a spiritual reality, and if you do not experience it, then you have no part with Jesus Christ. But since you do have a part with him, you can hear his voice and know that He will never leave you or forsake you. God bless you all the time, Kristine, precious child of God, Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
Prior to 1888, Ellen White taught salvation entirely by works. In 1888, Jones & Waggoner began preaching salvation by grace which Ellen White accepted for the first time. However, at no time did she ever retract one word of what she taught earlier. She tried to make a blend of the two. Steps to Christ was first published in 1892, so it's among her later works, where she was leaning more toward salvation by grace. But you can still see where she fits in the teaching of salvation by works. "Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai." pg. 61. STC. Here's some more gems. This time chastising unfit couples for deteriorating the human race. A Solemn Appeal The Marriage Relation -PG- 107 Men and women who have corrupted their own bodies by dissolute habits, have also debased their intellects and destroyed the fine sensibilities of the soul. Very many of this class have married, and left for an inheritance to their offspring the taints of their own physical debility and depraved morals. The gratification of animal passions and gross sensuality have been the marked characteristics of their posterity, which have descended from generation to generation, increasing human misery to a fearful degree, and hastening the deterioration of the race. Men and women who have become sickly and diseased, have often in their marriage connections selfishly thought only of their own happiness. They have not seriously considered the matter from the standpoint of noble, elevated principles, reasoning in regard to what they could expect of their posterity, but diminished energy of body and mind which would not elevate society, but sink it still lower. Sickly men have often won the affections of women apparently healthy, and because they loved each other, they have felt themselves at perfect liberty to marry, neither considering that by their union the wife must be a sufferer, more or less, because of the diseased husband. In many cases, the diseased husband improves in health, while the 108 wife shares his disease. He lives very much upon her vitality, and she soon complains of failing health. He prolongs his days by shortening the days of his wife. Those who thus marry, commit sin in lightly regarding health and life given to them of God to be used to his glory. But if those who thus enter the marriage relation were alone concerned, the sin would not be so great. Their offspring are compelled to be sufferers by disease transmitted to them. Thus disease has been perpetuated from generation to generation. And many charge all this weight of human misery upon God, when their wrong course of action has brought the sure result. They have thrown upon society an enfeebled race, and done their part to deteriorate the race, by rendering disease hereditary, and thus accumulating human suffering. | ||
| Lynn W |
Here's another one from the same book. "Those who profess to be disciples of Christ should be elevated in all their thoughts and acts, and should ever realize that they are fitting for immortality, and that if saved, they must be without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. Their Christian character must be without a blemish, or they will be pronounced unfit to be taken to a holy heaven, to dwell with pure, sinless beings in God's everlasting kingdom." Kristine, I don't think you're being stubborn at all. Naturally your church doesn't want you to know all this ugly stuff. It takes time to search it out on your own and I praise God that He has lead you to do that. Believe me we've just scratched the surface of ugly. Ellen White was obsessed with the whole subject of self-gratification (sexually). She wrote 2 books on it wherein she says that every disease is caused by this and this in turn is caused by eating and drinking the wrong things. She talks about youth, children, infants, 2 year-olds, 4 year-olds, 5 year-olds, and 5 to 10 year-olds all being guilty of this crime. She says, "From what was shown me, a large share of the youth now living are worthless." "Secret indulgence is in many cases the ONLY real cause of the numerous complaints of the young." Appeal to Mothers and A Solemn Appeal. I don't think you can buy these at the ABC (Adventist Book Center). They are part of the suppressed writings, but I have a copy of each in my hands. And there are others still floating around. If you really want to know what they believe, order the video SDA - The Spirit Behind the Church through Mark Martin's web-site. Or go to the ABC & get a Clear Word "Bible" & compare it with a real Bible. | ||
| Bruce H |
Krisitn It sounds to me that you have faith in the cross, and trust in what Jesus said and did. The real question is do your children also walk by faith or are they listening to those in the church who teach Ellen White. Ellen white teaches it both ways, which way will your children listen, work's or faith. Flip the coin see if they make it. If you love your children do your studies but trust in christ. 1 John 2:27 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. Trust in him and he will guide you into all truth, John 16:13 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. Dont trust in us or them just in Jesus his way will be true. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Colleentinker |
Kristine, I second what Bruce and Lynn and Susan and Lori and Max have said. As you read EGW, you really must not neglect reading the Bible. I think it's true; young Adventists are not being taught the Adventist details as we were taught a generation or two ago. EGW is presented as a benign, grandmotherly woman to whom we owe a debt of gratitude for the amazing insight into truth that we have. But no matter how she is modified, neglected, or whitewashed, the spiritual claim on the church remains. It's like abuse hidden in a family. Unfortunately many (way too many) Adventist families harbor secrets of abuse. If a father or a mother molests a young child (yes, this perverse unfaithfulness mars many Adventist families) but stops the active abuse when the child becomes older, the abuse is not negated. The child is still damaged. If the parent does not acknowledge that he or she has done anything wrongóeven acting as if nothing happenedóthat denial makes the damage worse. The parent treats the child as if nothing happened and expects the child to respect and honor him or her, and the child feels shamed and wicked and ungrateful and afraid and angry because he or she cannot feel safe and loving as he or she thinkis he should. Discontinuing the abuse WITHOUT repentance does not stop the effects of the abuse. The child continues to suffer, and the relationship between him and the parent can never be healthy. The damage is passed on to future generations in the form of emotional dysfunction. Only God can intervene and heal such wounds. Only honest repentance on the part of the parent can heal the relationship with the child. Unfortunately, the Adventist church is like that offending parent. It's trying to adapt its "distinctives" so they don't sound so "different". They downplay EGW's influence; they don't teach the full depth of the Investigative Judgment; they say we are saved by grace and Sabbath isn't required. Yet officially they're not backing down from any of their teachings. The church is trying very hard to appear "normal" and "evangelical". But underneath the secrets remain. The external is not the truth. Without repentance, without admitting EGW was false, without recanting its official doctrines, the church is still the abusive parent, coercing its children into loyalty by pretending the truth doesn't exist. I just received a jolt this morning when I was studying for our next I Corinthians FAF Bible study lesson. Chapter 6:3 says, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?" It hit me forcefully that one of the church's modern attempts at sanitizing the investigative judgment is to say that we will judge God. He will open himself to the scrutiny of the saved, they say, and we and the watching universe will judge for ourselves whether or not He has been just. God will be up for OUR review. We will declare him just before the watching universe. How arrogant--to even think that we will judge God, the Lawgiver and Judge! What really hit me this morning was the reality of I Cor 6:3: we will judge angels. Of course! That includes Satan! Is it any wonder that he tries to confuse the issue by convincing us that the investigative judgment will be about our vindicating God? This teaching fits nicely with the Great Controversy theme which says Christ and Satan are engaged in an ongoing struggle--which our faithfulness will help Jesus to win. Praise God that He alone is God. Praise God that Jesus is "Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." Praise God that the Holy Spirit is God in us. Praise God that he is not an angel, that he has already defeated Satan, that he is sovereign--that good and evil are in his hands. Praise God that he is love, and that his love overarches all creation. Praise God that no matter where we go or what we do, we are always encircled by Love. Praise God that he will never let us go! | ||
| Lydell |
Whew Colleen, that was most excellent! Okay Kristine, we are probably overwhelming you with all this stuff. But please know it is done in love for you and your family. As Bruce so clearly pointed out, you and your husband can dig for the truth, but your children cannot. And, from having taught sabbath school to small children, I can tell you that they are most certainly going to be taught the errors that we have been pointing out to you. It's done little by little, one comment here, one comment there. Maybe only by the "mission story" telling about how awful little Timmy felt for disobeying God by flying his kite on the sabbath. Will you be able to catch all of those things and undo the damage at home? Lynn, you seem to be one here who does most excellent research. Can you give Kristine the references from Steps to Christ that are non-scriptural? I believe you gave a few somewhere on the site previously. I'd like to have these in my own file for reference. (Maybe we shouldn't have burned all the books after all. ha) I know it is the most sanitized of her books, which is why it is the one they commonly use to give out for "evangelism". | ||
| Lynn W |
Wow! Colleen that was a perfect allegory for me to relate to. I grew up thinking of my grandparents as the most wonderful, loving, sweet people in the world. I could never think anything bad of them. Little did I know that grandpa had sexually abused some of his daughters while grandma pretended ignorance. About the time I was born, he repented, but no appologies or even acknowledgement were ever made. I grew up adoring them & couldn't understand the hatred & resentment my mom & her siblings had for them. SDA's "grandchildren" only know the legends of Ellen White, the dear little old grandmotherly type and can't understand the truth that SDA's "children" know. ***************** Have you ever watched a very small dog challenge a very large dog to a fight? Most large dogs won't even bother with a response. They look a little annoyed at worse, possibly even a little amused. They are secure enough not to bother with the little challenger no matter how angry the little guy is. This is the "battle" I see going on between Christ and Satan. Whenever Satan approaches Christ, Christ looks down at the little pipsqueak, shakes His head and says, "not you again," and gives him a boot. When Satan approaches us with a challenge, we should do the same for we have Jesus standing right behind us and He's a LOT bigger. *********************** Lydell, you're right STC is "the most sanitized of her books," and therefore the safest for SDA to give out. There's not much in there. Even so, I'll read it again to see what I come up with. It's been a long time. | ||
| Still SDA |
Kristine, Iím so glad you have a personal relationship with Jesus. When I became SDA 10 yrs ago, I was seeking same. I was taught salvation by faith, but only able to find assurance through non-SDAís. Probably 80% of SDAís I know donít have assurance. I wondered why. SDA churches & regions ARE different - our area conservative. I wondered about what I saw: double standards, abuse, attitudes toward other Christians, our self-righteousness, church cover-ups, rules, EGW & more - but stayed, believing it was "the true church". When the Lord showed me my husband will never have assurance of his salvation as long as he is SDA, I wanted to leave. Iíve researched hundreds of hours incl many websites. Results are CHILLING. Now weíre both ready to leave SDA & husband is beginning to have assurance. My prayer is that God will lead you into His Truth. Most ex-SDA are not "the enemy" - as I was taught. |
