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Archive through March 25, 2000Maryann20 3-25-00  11:29 am
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Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2000 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you again, Bruce! That was interesting and insightful.

Colleen
Lori
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2000 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

I had heard what you wrote before. However, with each different person that presents the same information you get a slightly different delivery which further enlightens. Each individuals comments about what they find, deepens understanding. ( Just as the four gospels together give a much clearer picture of the whole that would be lost with only one.)

I would really like for you all to pray for my parents.......my mom in particular, she seems to be grasping a glimpse of scriptural truth, and seeing the chasm between it and the Adventist truth. She was born into the church, so she has 50+ years of legalism to break through, her entire life is Adventism.....friends, work, church, social, etc.....I'm going to give her some things that I have put together regarding the Sabbath, that seems to be her source of interest. Please keep us in your prayers!!!!

Many thanks,
Lori
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2000 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well then if the Law and the Sabbath were given at
mount Siani to who was it given.

Exodus 31:12-18
12 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying:
`Surely My Sabbaths YOU shall keep, for it is a
sign between Me and YOU throughout YOUR
generations, that YOU may know that I am the LORD
who sanctifies you.
14 `YOU shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it
is holy to YOU. Everyone who profanes it shall
surely be put to death; for whoever does any work
on it, that person shall be cut off from among his
people.
15 `Work shall be done for six days, but the
seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD.
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall
surely be put to death.
16 `Therefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep
the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout
THEIR generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 `It is a sign between Me and the CHILDREN OF
ISRAEL forever; for in six days the LORD made the
heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He
rested and was refreshed.'"
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with
him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of
the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the
finger of God.

So the Sabbath was given to the Children of Israel
as a sign of the Covenant (Old Covenant at mt
Siani).

How do we know it was not given to the Gentiles as
well.

Rom 9:4 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the
adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of
the law, the service of God, and the promises;

So the Law was given to the Israelites and them
alone.

Rom 2:14 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have
the law, by nature do the things in the law,
these, although not having the law, are a law to
themselves,

So the Gentiles who do not have the Law, so it was
not given at creation or to the Gentiles. I
wonder if he means ceremonial Law because it would
be something all people would have written on
their heart, to sacrifice a lamb or a dove or give
a grain offering (Christ is the End of Law, Rom
10:4)).

Well maybe now that we are Christians maybe we
should keep these Laws?

Acts 15:5-29
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who
believed (They were Christian1s kind of like
Adventist) rose up, saying, "It is necessary to
circumcise them, and to command them to keep the
law of Moses."

Notice it say circumcise AND keep the Law of
Moses.

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to
consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter
rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you
know that a good while ago God chose among us,
that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word
of the gospel and believe.
8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them
by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to
us,

He gave them the Holy Spirit without the Sabbath,
I wonder what Ellen White would say about that
considering the Sabbath is the seal.

9 "and made no distinction between us and them,
purifying their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting
a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither
our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 "But we believe that through the grace of the
Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same
manner as they."

Notice that Peter says that WE the Jews will be
saved in the same manner as THEY, NOT THEY WILL BE
SAVE IN THE SAME MANNER AS WE.

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and
listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many
miracles and wonders God had worked through them
among the Gentiles.

WOW! miracles without the Sabbath.

13 And after they had become silent, James
answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 "Simon has declared how God at the first
visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people
for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the prophets
agree, just as it is written:
16 `After this I will return And will rebuild the
tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will
rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble
those from among the Gentiles who are turning to
God,

Did the Adventist trouble you with Laws of Israel?

20 "but that we write to them to abstain from
things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,
from things strangled, and from blood.

So know we go back to what God said to Noah after
the Flood Gen 9:3-4 3 "Every moving thing that
lives shall be food for you. I have given you all
things, even as the green herbs.
Do you think pigs move?

4 "But you shall not eat flesh with its life,
that is, its blood.
21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations
those who preach him in every city, being read in
the synagogues every Sabbath."

As well as Seventh Day Adventist Churches.

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders,
with the whole church, to send chosen men of their
own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas,
namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and
Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles,
the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who
are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and
Cilicia: Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out
from us have troubled you with words, unsettling
your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and
keep the law" --to whom we gave no such
commandment--

No Such Commandment I wonder which one of the Ten
Commandments that was.

25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one
accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved
Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who
will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to
us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these
necessary things:

Notice that it is the Holy Spirit who is running
the show now.

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols,
from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual
immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you
will do well. Farewell.

Bruce Heinrich
Lynn W
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2000 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Bruce. I'm going to print that and share it with our SS teacher. Rom. 9 will be coming up soon.
Greg
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,
Your name sounds familiar are you a former
or current SDA pastor?
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greg

I am an Orthodontist here in Loma Linda, and I
have made a stand, and have put on the belt of
truth.

Bruce Heinrich
Ann L.
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Bruce!
Now I have to go back and "digest" what I just "ate"! You know I always wanted to hear someone else's comment about how the days were separated at creation. Because SDA's teach that the weekly cycle has never broken since creation (evening being the first part of the day, and morning being the last part). I always wondered, well if God created light first, then was the first day actually a day and a half long??! I thought I was the only "insane" person.

And you know how you said you asked a Jewish priest? Well, I know that SDA's make a distinction between the ten commandments and the law of Moses (moral and ceremonial law)? Well I got the idea that it would be interesting to find out if Jews (who the law was given to in the first place) had this same idea. So the other day I asked a Jew if they view the ten commandments as being somewhat more important than the rest of the law, because God spoke them and wrote them in stone with His finger. He said that Jews view the Torah, the books written by Moses as being more inspired than the rest of the Old Testament, and the ten commandments are no more significant than the rest of the law.
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 6:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

"Thus evening was and mourning was one day."
echad (one- Hebrew), like els and unus, is used
at the commencement of a numerical series for the
ordinal primus (cf. ch. 2:11; 4:19; 8:5, 15).
Like the numbers of the days which follow, it is
without the article, to show that the different
days arose from the constant recurrence of evening
and mourning. It is not till the sixth and last
day that the article is employed (v. 31), to
indicate the termination of the work of creation
upon that day. It is to be observed, that the
days of creation are bounded by the coming of
evening and mourning. The first day did not
consist of the primeval darkness and the
origination of light, but was formed after the
creation of the light by the first interchange of
evening and mourning. The first evening was not
the gloom, which possibly preceded the full burst
of light as it came forth from the primary
darkness, and intervened between the darkness and
full, broad daylight. It was not till after the
light had been created, and the separation of the
light from the darkness had taken place, that
evening came, and after the evening the mourning;
and this coming of evening (lit., the obscure) and
morning (the breaking) formed one, or the first
day. It follows from this, that the days of
creation are not reckoned from evening to evening,
but from morning to morning. The first day does
not fully terminate till the light returns after
the darkness of night; it is not till the break of
the new mourning that the first interchange of
light and darkness is completed, and a hemera
(day - Greek) has passed. The rendering, "out of
evening and morning there came one day," is a
variance with grammar, as well as with the actual
fact. With grammar, because such a thought would
require echad yome (one day - Hebrew); and with
fact, because the times from evening to mourning
does not constitute a day, but the close of a day.
The first day commenced at the moment when God
caused the light to break forth from the darkness,
but this light did not become a day, until the
evening had come, and the darkness which set in
with the evening had given place the next morning
to the break of day. Again, neither the words
broker hayah ereb hayah (evening was and morning
was - Hebrew), nor the expression broker ereb ,
evening-mourning (= day), in Dan 8:14, corresponds
to the Greek nuchthemeron , for mourning is not
equivalent to day, nor evening to night. The
reckoning of days from evening to evening in the
Mosaic law (Lev. 23:32), and by many ancient
tribes (the pre-Mohammedan Arabs, the Athenians,
Gauls, and Germans), arose not from the days of
creation, but from the custom of regulating
seasons by the changes of the moon. But if the
days of creation are regulated by the recurring
interchange of light and darkness, they must be
regarded not as periods of time of incalculable
duration, of years or thousands of years, but as
simple earthly days. It is true the mourning and
evening of the first three days were not produced
by the rising and setting of the sun, since the
sun was not yet created; but the constantly
recurring interchange of light and darkness, which
produced day and night upon the earth, cannot for
a moment be understood as denoting that the light
called forth from the darkness of chaos returned
to that darkness again, and thus periodically
burst forth and disappeared. The only way in
which we can represent it to ourselves, is by
supposing that the light called forth by the
creative mandate, "let there be," was separated
from the dark mass of the earth, and concentrated
outside or above the globe, so that the
interchange of light and darkness took place as
soon as the dark chaotic mass began to rotate, and
to assume in the process of creation the form of a
spherical body. The time occupied in the first
rotations of the earth upon its axis cannot,
indeed, be measured by our hour-glass; but even if
they were slower at first, and did not attain
their present velocity till the completion of our
solar system, this would make no essential
difference between the first three days and the
last three, which were regulated by the rising and
setting of the sun.


Bruce Heinrich

B
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce,

You told me once where to find the 613 commandments and I don't remember where. Do you a copy of all of these with their corresponding Bible verse in order? If you do have them handy, I would like a copy. If they are not already on your computer, maybe I could get a copy when I see you as I'm sure it's a long, long compilation.

Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann

The book with the 613 commandments is Biblical
Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. I am going to
order a book for an Adventist pastor I have been
talking to, do you want me to order you one also.
If I have time I will try to post the 613
COMMANDMENTS it will be a lot of work so it will
take some time. I need to do it.

Bh
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce,

Yeh, that would be cool. If you have a copy of them Friday night and would let me steal them for a couple days, I'll give them back to you Sunday after I copy them.

Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann

I will bring them with me.

Bruce H
graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce and all: Perhaps my message will be a little bit too late and will not elicit any response. But, on the commentary about the Council of Jerusalem, when the order was given to Gentiles to: vs. 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols,
from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual
immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you
will do well
The Church was pretty much under the Sunagogue's leadership and rule. When Paul received the Revelation of Grace, the fulfillment of times, the mystery hidden through the ages, and what Paul refers to as "my Gospel", we see in 1 Cor chapter 8 that Paul really shrugs off the "meat offered to idols issue" one of the major issues in the eluded text. Call me a dispensasionalist if you must: but with the revelation of Grace things did change! Thank God. Without the Apostle Paul Christianity today would be an insignificant sect of judaism! I've never been a SDA. I've been born and killed a Baptist! Now I am a white elephant who is CONSIDERED too Calvinist for the Charismatic and too Charismatic for the Calvinist. I just want to say that there are a few things that were held dear during the early church period in the Book of Acts that became a mere mention of something that WE COULD USE OUR LIBERTY (conscience) to decide about (sexual immorality not included in these, please)! To teach such things as law (I'm not elaborating so as not to offend anyone) is to be what Paul felt the Galatatians had been: BEWITCHED! Have you heard of witches in the pulpit bewitching people with their self made "truths"?
Jesus said that there were many things he had to teach but His disciples would not endure at that time. Yes, the Jewish born and raised disciples! But when the Holy Spirit would come, then He would teach us all things (and cause us to endure truth) When the Holy Ghost came in the day of Pentecost and the what is called the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" came truth was brought into the baby Church. But the final revelation was still to come. And when that revelation was given to Paul, "the mystery that was hidden through the ages, CHRIST IN US THE HOPE OF GLORY", things DID CHANGE! To deny this things, is again, to attempt to "judaize Christianity, rather than Christianize the world!".
Thanks for the opportunity!
I DO NOT KEEP THE SABBATH, BUT I KNOW THAT THE SABBATH KEEPETH ME!
Grace Ambassador
Max
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Grace Ambassador,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not Bruce, but I am interested in what you're saying. I perceive that you have done and are doing some deep thinking.

I'm having difficulty understanding. Could you simplify for me? In particular: Do you find the 24-hour/week Sabbath rest Fourth Commandment to be required under the New Testament, or not?

Under real grace alone,

Max
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace Ambassador

----Now I am a white elephant who is CONSIDERED
too Calvinist for the Charismatic and too
Charismatic for the Calvinist.------

I like that one.

Bruce Heinrich
Milton Almeida (Graceambassador)
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2000 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Max and Bruce:
First Max:
Max, I think your former SDA here in this forum will be better equipped to discuss the issue with you on the stand point of the cerimonial Sabbath. I can help there too, but my area is Grace.
In order to discuss Grace, I have to do what Paul says an approved workman of the Lord knows how do do: RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH! In the Greek, this literaly means "to cut assunder". We need to do as Jack the Ripper would put it better:
Let's separate things!
First, we have to understand the periods of revelation. Some call dispensations and that drives people away from me because I do believe in at least some form of dispensationalism. Anybody that does believe in a New and an Old Testament does the same, but will never consider themselves as "dispensationalists:".
Having said that, note that through the NT from Matthews to Acts we have a continuance of the Rites and Ceremonies of the Jewish Faith. Jesus even participates in their celebrations and practices Judaism very openly.
In the Book of Acts, Peter included in his Salvation package, the controversial Acts 2:38 "baptism" in the same level of believing. In Jesus' interaction with people in the Gospels, He said to one that in order to be "saved" He had to sell all he had. To others Jesus said that charity was the means to Salvation since they had to take care of the poor, visit those who are in prison, etc.. To Nick (Nicodemus for the initiating) he said "you must be born again". To Zacheus he did not have to say anything and just proclaimed his Salvation! So, how is Salvation applied? Obviously the revelation of the SAVIOR was clear, but the message of Salvation was still "hidden", or at least not open to ALL, if Paul was correct.
When the message was REVEALED to Paul, and Paul says that it was hidden, and Paul disclosed it to us in His epistles we were able to understand things of "times past" (Eph 2:11-12) such as:
circumcision: its suppression
special days: its importance and lack thereof
water baptism: its importance and lack thereof
baptism with the Holy Spirit as a "church baptism"
tithing: its importance and lack thereof
the five fold ministry: its dintinction form Jewish leadership
The suppresion of Jewish ceremony
Salvation: God's method: Election and Reprobation
And of course, "meat sacrificed to idols" as I said before...
Was Paul a liberal rebel? Was Paul of the "new age"? Does Paul contradicts the other apostles, such as Peter and James? Does the Bible contradict itself? NO! It is all in its proper time: Ephesians 2:7 Paul says "ages to come", in 11-13 he says "times past" but in verse 12 he says BUT NOW... this is now, Grace! Nothing of times past, wating the fulfillment of ages to come! PRAISE HIS NAME

So... all these things, in God's administration of time (remember Ecclesiastes says that there is time for everything UNDER THE SUN, our REALM), God is timeless, but for our sakes, he MANAGES TIME, God decided to maintain certain things as His MORAL LAW, for example, and allow certain things to fade away, especially with the advent of the Gentile Church!
Today, because of Paul, we know that:
baptism means nothing FOR SALVATION (I hope you agree with this one),
tithing became (2 Cor 9) "each one gives what he has proposed in His heart" and "not grudgingly but cheerfully", rather than a legal amount.
Salvation is God's choice and initiative
Ceremony became something that we should respect just not to "offend our brother"
We do not have to respect special days

Above all, I know I run the risk of being too long, we know that Jesus is our rest! I DO NOT KEEP THE SABBATH; THE SABBATH KEEPETH ME!
Paul is so open in terms of ceremonial Law that I read about a Jewish Rabbi that said that Christianity would be meaningless without the writings of Paul and His "liberal" theology! I heard the same thing from a Muslim. And you know what? They're right!
What distinguishes Christianity from the heathen religions is:
WE ARE A FAITH WITHOUT A TEMPLE. WE'RE HIS TEMPLE!
WE ARE A FAITH THAT GOD SOUGHT MEN AND NOT MEN GOD
WE ARE A FAITH WHERE THE OFFENDED GOD OFFERED PARDON FOR THE OFFENSOR!
WE ARE A FAITH WHERE THE OFFENDED GOD ACTUALLY BECAME A PEACE SACRIFICE ON BEHALF OF THE OFFENSOR!
Please, read my writings at http://embassyofgrace.net
Sorry to plug in, but I have to stop or you will never read my postings again!

Hey Bruce:
I know that that one is really crazy, but I actually heard that phrase from my "former" friends, the Pentecostal preachers. I LOVED IT AND ABSORBED IT AS A DESCRIPTION OF MY MINISTRY!
Grace and Peace!
Grace Ambassador
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Milton,

I am continually amazed at how ignorant the "Christian world" is in regards to things such as the Sabbath/Sunday issue and the tithe issue.

The average Sunday keeper is blissfully ignorant of "why" they keep a day other than the "Sabbath".

The very same person and particularly the pastor will be be very sure that the forth commandment is not for us today, yet crucify themselves and their flock on the tithe issue.

I really think Larry Burkett, of Money Matters, has a very noble purpose. I used to listen to him when ever I could. I was a bit uncomfortable about his "hard line" in tithing. Most of his materials and programs have tithe worked in to the figures you are expected to deal with. It's like he's totally unaware of 2 cor. 9:6-8.

I sort of quit listening to him when a young gal with two young kids and a husband called in. Here's my recall on the conversation:

Young gal: (my recall of the conversation to the best of my ability)

My husband has a job, but does not make a lot of money. I was working but with the kids growing like they are, I need to be home with them. I quit my part time job and and am now a full time mother. We were paying 10% tithe faithfully while I was working. Now that I'm not working, we hardly have enough money for the necessities of life, much less tithe. Do you think that God understands this? What I do have is more time. I've been going to our Church and volunteering my time to what ever ministry is needy. I'm very happy doing this. What do yo think?

Larry Burkett: (my recall of the conversation to the best of my ability)

I applaud your decision to obey God and be a full time Mom at home. I understand your situation and there are many that are in the situation you are. Doing volunteer work is a wonderful thing and I applaud you for your efforts. Never the less, you must also obey God and tithe as you are commanded to do. I know it seems that it is impossible at this time. You need to trust God and continue to tithe 10% and God will provide. Are there any places in your budget that you can cut? Are there any unnecessary things you are spending on? Is there a raise in your husbands future, and if not can he re-train in another area?

I wanted to puke!!!! If I could have crawled though the radio waves, I would have and choked him down for destroying this gal.

You should have heard the pain, fear and especially guilt in her voice! He let her go that way!? What does she think of God now?!

This is the general gist of other conversations with Larry with similar situations.

If any of you are well enough equiped to deal with this issue, why don't you call up his show and ask him if you can disagree with him and then point this out?

This was long enough ago that I came closs to tossing religion again! How many people does he chase away from God with this "hard line" tithe issue?

Maryann
Max
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Milton Almeida (Graceambassador),

Thanks for answering my question. I mean, you really ANSWERED it! I agree.
Max
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, Great reaction to an abusive Larry Burkett for whom Money Matters more than the Lord Jesus Christ!

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