| Author |
Message |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 12:05 am: |     |
I just re-re-read the above. It almost seems that I have an odd colored or dark colored attitude at times. Do I need to be concerned?
Maryann |
Lydell
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 6:29 am: | |
Well, no, Maryann, what you have said does make sense. Some Christians are in the mindset that to "witness" means to spout the entire gospel message to someone and push for a decision ro respond immediately.
But a lot of folks out there have been so wounded by "religious people" or crippled by a false view of Fatherhood because of their own rotten earthly fathers that they are no where near ready to hear the gospel message yet. First they have to come to realize there is truly a God, then that if God made all of this and them then there must be a reason, and what if, just what if this reason is that this God really does want to have a relationship with them.
For that reason, the vast majority of our "witnessing" is supposed to be living a Spirit-filled life of letting God's love flow through us to other people. Or as I've heard it put, "witness everywhere you go, and when necessary use words."
In other words, your witnessing job most of the time is going to be to be the first Christian that someone else didn't immediately hate. And you do that by showing them kindness and God's love in practical ways. It may be something large or something very small.
At our church we do servant evangelism rather than rent a hall, spend megabucks, and blast them with the message they are going to hell. We do things like have free car washes, go to laundromats and hand out quarters to help pay for their wash, give out free balloons to the kids at the park, or go to hospitals and pass out free snacks to the folks in the waiting rooms. We tell them simply, "we just wanted to show folks in a practical way that God loves you." Sometimes folks will then open up a conversation and we can share more, if not, that's okay. The point was just to demonstrate God's love.
Sometimes it takes awhile to get folks to accept the stuff because it is free. They will try to pay you. Some will actually get annoyed that you won't accept their money. But we explain that what we are doing is free because it is a demonstration that God's love for them is also free. And we encourage our people to continue this mindset of, as one minister said, "smearing people with the love of God", in their daily lives.
I think that's the answer to getting people to see the difference between the guy at the bottom of the mountain and the guys up there closer to the top. It's the living out the stuff that the Lord has already done inside you.
For those already in the church, it helps enormously for the guys at the top to turn back around and talk to the guy at the bottom. They need to be telling him what it was like for them when they were at the bottom getting cut up by the rocks.
They need to share with him their own struggle with understanding how to get one foot under them. How they felt shaky putting the other one under them and actually standing up for the first time. Point him to the promises in the Word they found that led them to see it was really possible. And they are supposed to be helping him to understand that they are nothing special and that if God could take their arm and help them to stand and take a step forward, that he will also help him.
In otherwords, they are supposed to be telling the story of their own victory that the Lord has given AND the struggles of how it came about. AND as they are telling him these things they are taking his arm to help him to his feet and holding him up while he takes the first step.
That's what the real body life of the church is supposed to be like! When you visit a church and see it going on, that's how you are going to know you have found a place where you can grow in God. You don't just need to be in a place full of former-SDA's, Maryann. As wonderful and touching as that may be. There are all varieties of "formers" out there (Catholics, cult members, alcoholics, drug abusers, abused wifes, the list goes on) who are helping each other through struggles that can seem remarkably similar to your own. |
BMorgan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 7:38 am: | |
Maryann,
Thanks much for your beautiful, appropriate analogy. It was again God's answer to an encounter I had yesterday.
I have a friend of twenty two years. A sda pastor. Over the years, we have shared ours griefs about what we constantly saw as hyprocrisy and ineptness of the church to preach the true gospel. He has been to seminary at Andrews U. I would unload on him my many concerns, but was somewhat hesitant about letting him know my recent discoveries about Ellen White, (-not the plagarism stuff. That issue has be adequately explained away to me and I had already resolved it in my large adventist brain.) the church, etc.
Within the last 8-9 weeks I have found your site, read Canright's (horrible man as he was) book, and did my own investigating about Ellen White. Thanks to you guys,I went into a major tail spin.
I did not know that so many adventist knew they were missing the gospel and sought it elsewhere, and are even enjoying fellowship with "those Sunday people" as my friend describe nonadventist christians.
Yesterday, I spoke to my friend but was careful not to sound disparaging about the church in anyway. I told my friend I no longer consider myself Adventist in anyway.
He remonstrated in loud, godly, humble manner, .."All they (Sunday worshippers) have is, "Jesus, Jesus. WE are strong on the last day prophecies, Sabbath, health education. Our prophet was way ahead of her time. Will I give up Great Controversy, Children Guidance, Evangelism and Adventist home? Never! Those people can teach me (us) nothing. But we should give them a listening ear."
Adventism goes deep. My friend is not idiot and I consider him broadminded, but was taken aback with his sense of pride and arrogance. He knows I go to church on Sunday, so he was not being offensive in any way. He was a little patronizing though, for he thinks I am of a little trip but really cannot leave the church. I will return to the ark of safety, so I mission is to walk alongside me until I come out or the RAGE I am going through. Ha, Ha.
When He discovered, that I had a problem with Sabbath keeping and the Investigative judgement, he was stumped, and wanted to know why I did not tell him. That's when he told me he sensed a cynicism and anger coming from me. Believe me, all I did was laugh out loud once, while he was on his speil about how great adventism is. When he inquired about the laugh, I told him I would tell him when we can speak in agreement, for I did not want to be responsible for an emotional disarray he may experience, if he would find out the things I did. Of course this wounded his intellectual pride and robust spiritual maturity which can handle anything. He knows all the criticism about Ellen White already, there is nothing new he can learn. Lest I be critical of Him, God brought to my mind the times I said things like that too.
God is showing thatI need to have compassion, with the "weaker" brother. He is stripping me of the clothing of pride that I picked up in adventism and wrapped so tightly around me, that it is almost a tattoo on me.
Lord, create in me a New heart and remove that cloak of pride that feels so comfortable around me. I am still learning to let you take it off, let me trust you to replace it with a garment of true humility and love, that my person may be hid and only your glory will show forth.
BMorgan |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 8:33 am: | |
Thank you Lydell,
I think you may be off my point a bit. The other is that one does need fellowship of their own kind, especially when they are struggling. Being a witness to ALL the un-saved you come into contact is the object, I agree. Specificly though, my heart is burning for the SDAs and you really can't get through to them without a pretty good understanding of SDAism and a better understanding of the gospel. In the case of SDAs, you need an ultra clear understanding of the Sabbath and how to tie it with scripture to the gospel. For years I was beat against the rocks because I tried to get out of the SDAism mindset with regular Sunday keeping pastors and it didn't work!! I needed what I have now and that is, like minded formers!
At the place I am at in my walk, I can not do justice to very many subjects and in fact possibly an in-justice. I was FORCED to use 2 years of my life studying the "word faith movement" to get the stars out of Mom's eyes. In the meantime, I've had to put time into understanding the Oneness non-Trinitarian belief that my husband IS now back into and the basics of Mormonism as my kids have been surrounded by Mormons! Without the support of the CRI, I could NOT have understood the "word faith stuff". Had I had a "warm body" that had come out of that, it would have been much easier! I DON'T have a warm body to help me with the Oneness cult. I've tossed even trying to deal with it as it is so "dug in" like the SDAs. A person with a lot of Bible knowledge and time to study may not need like minded formers around them, BUT I DO! And I'm the most thankful person in the world now.
What you described as the way your church witnesses is wonderful. That is a great way to do it. For me, I can't do it that way at work. It kinda goes like; hey, were you raised around religion? A grunt happens, then an explosion. They spill their guts and it is putrid with hate. I go wow-wah. I hear that! I was raised in a rather legalist, hypocritical religion myself and I tossed it at 18! If a crack appears in their head, I slip in a couple comments of a LOGICAL nature that grabs their intereat and some times we get off in a good "God favored" conversation. A syllable even resembling the Bible would have ended it. It is amazing just how many people hate God! I may travel in a different circle than most of you (construction) and let me tell you, these guys are dug in, in their HATE of God and religious talk! And they are very proud and VERY vulgar about it!
Oops, it's late, we can pick this up later...Maryann |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 1:01 pm: | |
Colleen and Richard,
Every day I'm becoming more aware of what a SOCIAL thing salvation is. Consider the social interaction that took place between two men, Jesus-on-the-cross and the thief-on-the-cross.
What a gift Christ Jesus gave this unnamed criminal when he said, "Sameron met emou esay en tone paradeisou!" Or, "This very day you will be with me in paradise!" Luke 23:43 JOV.*
The thief on the cross! Jesus on the cross! Both in physical agony! Both in paradise! Both experiencing the unconditional, self-sacrificing "agapay" love that is brought by the grace of sudden salvation-sanctification-perfection all wrapped in one singular gift!
This is the kind of love that you and Richard and your two sons have shown to me. And, yes, it does compensate -- and more than compensate -- for the suffering. For this kind of love is of more-than-human origin.
Our God -- Jesus on the cross -- is an awesome God!
Jude
*Jude the Obscure's Version |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 - 11:19 pm: | |
Hey Jude,
Iíve been thinking about the Luke 23:43-46 most of the day. It really struck me to see the ětodayî show up in, ěI tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradiseî. I never thought of it possibly tying in with all the ětodaysî in Heb. 4?
The concept of the thief being in the kingdom of God at the moment of belief is so different from the concept that is usually represented by the evangelical world. I like that angle. Usually, this verse is used to show that one doesnít ědoî soul sleep, but that the soul goes straight to heaven. Then our SDA friends remind us that ěTHE COMMAî should go after today instead of before today. I just tossed the verse because of the arguments that it caused! Good going.
Your comments about being un-conditionally accepted in love got me to thinking. Concept this. When there is a death, you go through denial. You just canít believe it is true. How can it be true? Are you sure itís true? Really, really true? After this stage you just sorta ělullî. Finally you accept it and go on. I understand exactly what you mean about a ěspine-tingling thrillî. Do you suppose this is why God puts Christians in our paths? When you can finally accept human un-conditional love after all the questions of is it really true are settled, you are more ready to accept and understand Godís un-conditional love. What do you think? Is there a similarity between the order of events to acceptance of death as there is to un-conditional love? This almost sounds morbid. Sometimes looking at the reverse or the other side makes things stand out more clear. (At least for me)
I ran across something the other day that went something like this. A mirror wasnít made to wash your face. You wouldnít think to use it as a wash cloth. But, if your face is dirty, it will point out that fact. It will never be the object to clean the dirty face, but it will most certainly send you off to find some soap and water. So it is with the law, it wont clean your heart, soul and mind. It should send you scurrying for the soap and water of Jesus Christ.
Lydell,
I must be getting toward the tail end of denial. The sniveling SHOULD be winding down. I need to start focusing on Him. Thank you for your thought and steam provoking post!
Maryann |
Cas
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 10:04 pm: | |
Blessings to all-
Jude I don't have time for a response to answer your questions of me, as I am getting ready for a week long trip to bask in the sun & sand of the Sunny (I hope), southern CA beaches.
Hopefully I will have time to do lots of reading.
Have a good week.
Maryann, the isolation you speak of, I understand completely. Some days I just yearn to talk to someone that knows what I am going through. It gets me down sometimes.
I guess that is when the support from a group or church is so needed. Thank God for this web site. |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 1:08 pm: | |
Cas,
Hope you get this message before you leave for "the sun & sand of the Sunny (I hope), southern CA beaches." 'Cause you can maybe attend our weekly FAF meeting:
7:00-9:00 pm, Friday evenings
Trinity Evangelical Free Church
1551 Reservoir Road
Redlands, CA 92374
Call Trinity church office 909.335.7333 M-F 8:00A-5:00P for directions.
We're just off of I-10, which runs E-W through Redlands. If going east, take the Ford exit, turn hard left, immediately pass under freeway overpass, then immediately turn right onto Reservoir, go a few hundred yards (with high earthen embankment and no houses on your left, freeway on your right), then turn hard right into Trinity parking lot.
I'm not as familiar with the way going west from Yucaipa through Redlands and on to Loma Linda, but you still take the Ford exit, turn right on Ford (if you can find it in the noodleworks of overpasses), turn right on Ford, pass under I-10 freeway overpass, then immediately turn right onto Reservoir, go a few hundred yards (with high earthen embankment and no houses on your left, freeway on your right), then turn hard right into Trinity parking lot.
Or if you can join us for Sunday services. We're begging to have three worship services starting Easter Sunday: 8:00A, 9:30A, ll:15A.
Pastor Gary Inrig preaches truly unforgettable sermons, full of faith, hope and love. In a lifetime in Adventism I have NEVER heard such powerful preaching, not even from the likes of H.M.S. Richards, Sr.
WOULD MORE THAN LOVE TO HAVE YOU, CAS, AND ALL YOUR FAMILY!
Jude |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 1:58 pm: | |
Ooops, forgot to add: Trinity Evangelical Free Church has a website!
www.trinityonline.org
Just in case anybody out there in cyberville -- especially those SDAs, former SDAs, marginal SDAs, etc., who live in and around Loma Linda -- might be interested.
Come on, now, how long has it been since you darkened the dorway of a church AND HAD A SOUL-STIRRING EXPERIENCE WORSHIPING GOD?
'Fess up! How long?
Come on over! It's nothing like you ever experienced in SDAdom! Guaranteed! I know from my own personal experience!
Jude |
Cas
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 4:28 pm: | |
Jude,
I am doing a quick check in before I go, to get my FAF fix! ha ha.
Guess what Jude, I know exactly where you are, well almost. My Mom lives in Redlands!!!
I visit her a few times a year and will plan on coming to a meeting when I am there, in fact I am quite anxious to. (I won't be able to make it this time). Thanks so much for the invite.
I live in Napa Valley, just down the hill from PUC.
God Bless.
CAS |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2000 - 5:16 pm: | |
Cas,
Fat sails, voyager!
Jude |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2000 - 12:12 am: | |
Cas--We'd love to meet you! Let us know when you can come.
Have a great weekend!
Colleen |
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