| Author | Message | ||
| Darrell |
In another discussion (Rewards vs. Salvation), Lori mentioned the concept of "rebound", or confession, as being the way for a Christian to move back into the circle of fellowship with God. If I understand, "rebound" is the terminology of R. B. Theime? On the other hand, I have recently seen a set of videos by Bob George where he claims that confessing our sins once we are saved is out of place and not Biblical. This is one topic I intend to study for myself in the near future, but meanwhile, what Biblical evidence can you give for either of these positions? | ||
| Lynn W |
"Bob George where he claims that confessing our sins once we are saved is out of place and not Biblical." Who is this guy? Does he give scripture to support this? What about 1 John 1:9. From the context, John is obviously talking to Christians. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
You're right, Lynn, as usual. | ||
| Maryann |
Lynn, Bob George did say that. I did not think it was right when I heard it and Mom junped on that too. I always did believe that you should confess your sins daily. Bob, I believe was after a different principle when that whopper came out of his mouth. I will get that tape set to you and you can look at it. I'm very thankful that I had the opportunity to hear Bob's Hebrews series (it was sent to me by a FAF member) as it was the first time I heard the wonderful Hebrews message as "we/I" know it know. I looked at the "confessing your sins only once" as giant blooper. The blessing I received overall way out weighed that blooper. If he really meant to say it like it came out, he needs our prayers and letters as he has a rather large ministry. Bob is part of the chain of events that has put me where I am today and I thank God for that! Your sister in faith.....Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
Lynn I did not get the impression from Bob George's video that we are not to confess our sins. ---- (Bob George claims that confessing our sins once we are saved is out of place and not Biblical).----- What I got from the video is that when we sin against other's we must ask forgiveness from them, and this is what God wants us to do because he has already forgiven us. The example was a testimony by Bob George showing when He realized for the first times that he did not have to ask forgiveness from God in order to reconcile his relationship with Jesus, that the relationship was still there and God did not just love him because he ask for forgiveness from God, but because God Loves His children. I did not get from this that we are not to ask forgiveness from God. But I could see how sombody could confuse this. I liked the Video I learned a lot from it. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Some thoughts on confession I think there is a whole encyclopedia worth of thoughts that could be written on confession. Here are some of mine: 1. I believe that confession also is gift of the Holy Spirit. We cannot even confess our own sinfulness without the promptings of God. 2. Christians cannot confess, let alone remember every sin. Therefore, I do not believe in confessing of sins, as is the doctrine of the RCC, as much as in the confession of one's sinful nature and that we are helpless to save ourselves. We are not "absolved" of each sin individually; we are saved as a whole. I believe that the Christian should always be confessing his/her sinfulness, unworthiness, inability to earn God's favor, and total dependence upon the grace of God in Christ. In fact, it is only by acknowledging and claiming the all-sufficiency of Christ that we can truly overtly confess our sinfulness and our helplessness to remedy it. Only he who cannot save himself needs a Savior. 3. Confession also can have a positive connotation: We confess to what we believe in. Therefore, our confession must include our belief in the great saving act of our Lord. "He who believes and confesses with his mouth.." 4. Confession and repentance both involve living in an attitude of humility, that we are unworthy, that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; that Christ alone is worthy. If we are to have a Savior, then we must remain dependent upon His work. The moment we began to grow our own saving righteousness, we have no more need of Jesus. These were just a few thoughts off the top of my head. I am sure there are many of you who can expound more fully on these thoughts and upon confession. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Lori |
In 1John 1:9. it states that we are to 'confess' our sin, the Greek word translated here actually means to acknowledge, it really IS NOT the equivalent of asking for forgiveness, it is the act of acknowledging to God that 'hey, I know I did something I shouldn't have in your eyes.' The point is, all of our sins, past, present and future have been forgiven at the cross, (he [Bob] does have a point, that it is redundant to have to ask for forgiveness again for something that has already been taken care of) but we still need to acknowledge our mistakes, shortcomings (sins) to God to keep the Holy Spirit in control of our lives , 1 John 1:9 is clear on that matter. The verses before and after do clearly say that we do sin and those that claim that they do not sin, have no truth in them. We will all have a sin nature until we are in heaven. We will all sin and those sins were cancelled out on the cross, they have been forgiven. But having a Spiritual nature that we received when we accept Christ always affords us the option of NOT sinning, when we step under the carnal nature anyway and chose not to allow the spirit to lead us, we step away from God. We need to tell God, "I messed up", it doesn't mean we have to be mournful or feel sorry for what we did, it just means we know it was wrong now and it was not the will of God, but the will of self. This is the purpose of 1John 1:9, it's for 'believers only', it's a reinstatement of allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us!! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Bruce and Maryann--I agree with your take on the Bob George video. I did not get the impression he meant not to conress (admit) our sins to God, but rather, as Bruce said, that our sin does not stop our relationship with Jesus. Bob George did make the very excellent point that when we wrong someone, our responsibility is to confess to the person we wronged. Bob George's example was actually an incident in which he shamed his daughter, then was stricken with remorse. He went to his study and asked God to forgive him, and God said to him (essentially), "I have already forgiven you, but go confess to my child Debbie." (George's daughter) At first he didn't want to, but the conviction grew, and he went and confessed. It is not OK to pray and ask God to forgive us and leave the person bruised and bleeding because we are too proud to make things right. Our relationship with Jesus is secure; but we must reconcile with our brothers/sisters when we srong them. | ||
| Darrell |
Thanks for all of your good comments. Last night I reviewed what Bob George says in the workbook that came with the videos, and I looked up all New Testement verses relating to confession. Bob's main point is that with all the verses in the Bible promising that our sins have already been forgiven, we should not in our daily prayers ask God to forgive us again. Bob also talks about the context of 1 John 1:9. John wrote the letter to counter the gnostic heresy which was taking root in the Ephesian church (among others). The gnostics believed that flesh is evil and spirit is divine, therefore Jesus could not have come "in the flesh" as a man. That is why John says that "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is from God." Also, some gnostics believed that since flesh is evil anyway and their spirit is perfect, it did not matter what you did, you were without sin. So John's point is more to say that if we confess that we are sinners, then we will be saved. Bob George also explains the meaning of the word confess: "to say the same as". So to confess means to say the same obout ourselves as what God says. The way to do this is not so much by what we say in our prayer as by how we relate to others that we have wronged. Even if we "confess" that we have done wrong and then keep doing the same thing, we are not truly agreeing with God that the thing is wrong. There is no need for me to repeat any of the good points made by others above, so just let me add that I praise God for giving me freedom from guilt in Christ Jesus, not because I deserve it, but because of what He did for you and me. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I agree with Plain Patti who posted this: "Confession and repentance both involve living in an attitude of humility, that we are unworthy, that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; that Christ alone is worthy. If we are to have a Savior, then we must remain dependent upon His work. The moment we began to grow our own saving righteousness, we have no more need of Jesus." And I would like to expand a bit on it: If our righteous thoughts and actions are as sinful as "filthy rags" (literally, "used tampons;" see Isaiah 64:6 NIV textnote), then why shouldn't we ask God's forgiveness for them as well as for our unrighteous thoughts and actions? I believe we should. Why? Look at Isaiah 57:12 NIV: "I [God] will expose your [Judah's] righteousness and your [good] works, and they will not benefit you." The point: In the eyes of God, even our righteous thoughts and actions have zero value -- and less than zero -- and can in no way ever benefit us. Why not? Because, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV. Even such righteous actions as our Bible study and prayer are not excluded. "For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them." Isaiah 58:2 NIV. But God is not deceived by those who have deceived themselves. Nor is he unaware of the plight of those who believe themselves to be unworthy because they have fallen upon "that stone" (Luke 20:18) and have been broken by it. Let us hear "that stone" speak: ******* When the son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me." Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?" The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." They also will answer, "Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?" He will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me" Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ******* Notice that: 1. The sheep were unaware that their righteous deeds were acceptable, and the goats were unaware that their righteous deeds were unacceptable. 2. Jesus never once mentions unrighteous deeds. Only righteous deeds are at issue. So shouldn't we ask God's forgiveness for our righteous deeds as well as for our unrighteous ones? Here's an example: "O my Father, please forgive me for giving such a large offering in church today, for fear that I am doing it to be noticed by the church treasurer and pastor and give me a "leg up" in influence in the church board meeting. Forgive me for taking a day off work without pay in order to sit with my neighbor's sick child so she wouldn't have to take a day off, for fear that I will become puffed up with the leaven of the Pharisees. Forgive me for praying and studying my Bible so long this morning, for fear I'm trying to impress you, O my God, when in reality I am only deceiving myself." I believe we should. What do you believe? | ||
| George |
Jude, I've been reading this forum with interest and am to overwhelmed to comment on all the things that are said. This, however I can't let go without commenting. You said, "The sheep were unaware that their righteous deeds were accepable". Why should one have to ask forgiveness for something acceptable? And another thought, Hebrews 9:28 says that Christ is "bringing" salvation to those who are waiting. Even though we accept salvation when we "believe", we don't get it till he "brings" it, is what it sounds like to me. I'm a little confused here, what does this mean? Also, if our sins are forgiven when we believe, then sins that we commit after that aren't forgiven because they weren't "our" sins untill we committed them. This is why we still have to ask for forgiveness. Does that make sense at all to you? George | ||
| Plain Patti |
Jude, you are so right. Our whole life is one big confession of our weakness. You know, I lurk on several SDA boards and this text nearly always comes up when one speaks of our inability to reconcile ourselves to God and the assurance that we can have that Christ is all-sufficient for our salvation. And it supports exactly what you have said above, Jude. "Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of My Father." Matt. 7:21. SDAs and RCCs love to quote this text. But they rarely quote it in its entirety in context. The reason is obvious. Listen to the "rest of the story." 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Aside: What is the will of the Father? John 6:28-40*) 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Look at verses 22 and 23. The works that Jesus condemns is not homosexuality, adultery, fornication. What He condemns are supposedly GOOD works that the people have done. It could have read, "Lord, haven't I baptized hundreds of precious souls for you; haven't I tithed faithfully, even double tithing at times; haven't I gone to the darkest corners of the earth proclaiming the Three Angels' Messages..." The meaning would be the same. This passage is directed at the religious ones; those whose lives are dedicated to religious pursuits. This should strike a great deal of concern in us who claim to be followers of Christ. Having said that, Jesus did not leave us in limbo about our eternal fate: 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." We can know that our foundation is firmly planted on the Rock if we base all of our eternal hope on the objective, historical, complete, singular, once-for-all, all-sufficient, and unrepeatable saving work of Jesus Christ and not on anything inside of us. Even our faith is a gift from God. And we can know that we are accepted in Him, because He is worthy. I have always loved the hymn, "The Solid Rock," but it has meant so much more to me since the Gospel found me. "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness" Anything inside of us would be infinitely less. "When He shall come with trumpet sound Oh, may I then in Him be found, Dressed in His righteousness alone Faultless to stand before the throne." Can't help it. I just love those old hymns! What about y'all? * John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi George, "The sheep were unaware that their righteous deeds were accepable." Why should one have to ask forgiveness for something acceptable? Acceptable to whom? To the sinful human being who performs the work? Or to God? Only God's vision is good enough to see whether or not something is acceptable, for the human (even the doer of the deed) looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. The very act of ourselves finding our own actions acceptable is sin. It is the sin of self-acceptability instead of God-acceptability, the sin of self-confidence instead of Christ-confidence. It is the sin of the Pharisee, the sin of pride, the sin that burns hottest in the deepest core of hell. Hear Jesus (Luke 18:9-14 NIV): To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector [swindler and traitor]. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself [!]: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." And hear Paul (2 Corinthians 10:7 NIV): "You [Corinthians] are looking only on the surface of things. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should consider again that we [Paul and his traveling companions] belong to Christ just as he. For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it. I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. For some say, 'His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.' Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present. "We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise." Now, why is it, do you think, that Paul would not "dare" to classify himself with those who "commend themselves" or "compare themselves with themselves"? The answer, I believe, is that Paul was aware of Christ's parable of the sheep and the goats. Paul knew that "The sheep were unaware that their righteous deeds were accepable." For Paul refused to so risk his on salvation on prideful self-acceptability. Does this help? Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Again, Jude, you show great insight. If I may, I would like to share something that occurred to me when I was reading the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. First of all, which one do we always relate to? The publican, of course, because we all want to "go down to our house justified." However, we must remember that the Pharisee represented those who were repositories of God's truth. If we claim to have the "truth," then we must examine what Jesus said about the Pharisee. The Pharisees were, of course, some of the best law-keepers of all time. Christians are known in general to be people who claim to have have high moral standards. We generally think of the Pharisee in this parable to be self-exalting and self-righteous. Let's consider the passage again, though. 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." A point that we tend to miss is that the Pharisee did not take credit for his good works. He gave the "glory" to God: "I thank YOU that I am not as other men.". How often we hear this in Christendom today--this "witnessing" to one's own work. Granted the Holy Spirit works in us, but His testimony is never of Himself--that is, His work in the believer; He testifies of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. In the publican's prayer we see the same two elements of faith that were shown by the thief on the cross: 1. "God, have mercy on me"--an acknowledgment of the saving power of God; 2. "me, a sinner"--a statement of unworthiness and need. And the publican went home justified--set right with God. We can never reach a higher point in our Christian experience than being set right with God. The feeling our need of the mercy of Christ is the gift of the Holy Spirit drawing us. And we never outgrow the need for mercy and grace. The moment we start to publicly praise God for the good things that are happening in us as the Pharisee did, we are actually, as the Scripture says, exalting ourselves. We have lost sight of the sinfulness of our nature and our great need for mercy and grace. We stand squarely in the shoes of the Pharisee. Looking at the perfect righteousness of Christ always, we can only continually bemoan our sinfulness before God. But where the sin increases, so grace increases. The more sinful we see ourselves, the more astounded we are that Christ could forgive and accept us, the more grateful we are to Christ and His great mercy. Yes, we attempt to offer good works as an offering of gratitude to God for His great salvation in Christ, but we know that they always are nothing but refuse. We bemoan our spiritual decadence, just as Paul did; yet we rejoice to know that Christ is worthy. We live always as sinners forgiven and accepted by God only because of an alien righteousness, Christ's vicarious life and death for us. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi again, George, Hebrews 9:28 says that Christ is "bringing" salvation to those who are waiting. Even though we accept salvation when we "believe", we don't get it till he "brings" it. Well, we do get it when he "brings" it, that is true, but he's already brought it. Your salvation "kicked in" before you were born, dating from the time of the death and resurrection and ascension of Christ when he sat down at the right hand of our Father and received his approval. In a very important sense you were saved before you were born. All you have to do is not to reject your salvation. The Good Shepherd searches for and finds the lost sheep. Luke 15:4. The woman who had ten silver coins (a metaphor for Christ) searches for and finds the lost one. Luke 15:8. The prodigal son "came to himself" only because the Holy Spirit was pleading with him to return to his father's home. Luke 15:17. To see what Hebrews 9:28 is really talking about we need to read it in its own context: "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (NIV). The context tells us that Christ was sacrificed only once to take away the sins of "many people." This is salvation from sin for those who have not rejected his sacrifice. But sin, as we all know and agree, still abounds, for Satan's kingdom of the dark world still exists, although it is defeated and forever subject to King Jesus. The salvation mentioned in Hebrews 9:28 is not salvation from your own sins. For, "He will appear a second time, not to bear sin." So if this "second" salvation is not a sin-bearing salvation, what kind of salvation is it? I believe it is salvation from Satan's kingdom of darkness. It is a salvation from the attacks of Satan and all his troops. Make sense? Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Plain Patti, Thank you so much for your insights. Yes, the Pharisee DID give God the credit, didn't he? Reminds me of the Jewish prayer for all males, "Lord, I thank thee that thou has not made me a woman!" Yes, I can remember a vast number of testimonies in many SDA churches where, after boasting of all the wonderful things done, the boaster then "gives all the glory to God!" As though God needed it! As though God were somehow at risk of running short of glory! As though God were some unimaginably monstrous vending machine! Or, worse yet, slot machine! As though only those who had plenty of quarters to feed it had the right to "give" God glory! Always hoping, of course, of course, to "hit the jackpot"! Oh those jackpot "blessings" poured out again again and again. Poor thief on the cross! No quarters at all! Poor John the Baptist with his head on a platter! Poor God! Do you think he'll survive on such a diet of glory and praise? Or (meaning no disrespect) will he gag and vomit? Small wonder it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, not forgetting that the kingdom of heaven is within and around us all the time here and now (Luke 17:20,21), despite all the trials and tribulations. For the "paradise" of the kingdom of heaven is love that all true Christians have for each other. Compared to THAT paradise -- treating others as we would like to be treated and being treated by others as we are treating them -- the paradise of the vomiting slot machine is no paradise at all! But rather some exquisite form of hell. Well, not to get too wound up here. I've got to get back to George for one more post. Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi yet again, George, If our sins are forgiven when we believe, then sins that we commit after that aren't forgiven because they weren't "our" sins until we committed them. This is why we still have to ask for forgiveness. Well, I think our sins were forgiven when when Jesus sat down at the right hand of our Father. Don't you think this what is meant by Hebrews 10:11-14 (NIV)? "Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." You see, it says right here, George, that "by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those" -- including you, George -- who are being made holy." Now, if you have been "made perfect forever," then YOU ARE PERFECT! In-your-sinful-state perfect. HERE! NOW! FOREVER! All "ifs," "ands," "buts" and "maybes" are out the door. So now, my friend George, it's time for you to hear Paul again in Romans 7:7-8:2 (NIV). ******* begin quote ******* "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wreched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. ******* end quote ******* So here you have Paul admitting that he keeps on sinning all the time! Sound familiar? If so, you're in good company. Only Jesus is sinless. Only Jesus will be sinless until the harvest. All the rest of us, even if born again into the kingdom of heaven on earth here and now, are utter sinners. Paul is no exception. George is no exception. Jude is no exception. And neither is anybody else, Pharisee or Publican. Doesn't matter. Paul was a sinner -- he wrestled, he struggled -- and yet he still found himself a sinner, even the "chief" of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). And yet he felt no condemnation from God! Isn't that powerful? Because he was "in Christ Jesus!" "Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." More power! Those who are not "in Christ Jesus" do not and cannot experience this. This is the difference between a sheep and a goat. So when we say, "Our sins are forgiven when we believe," we do not and cannot mean that we are at that instant sinless (in and of ourselves), because we are NEVER sinless (apart from Christ) in this life, not even just after confessing and asking for forgiveness. On this point, hear 1 John 1:8-10 NIV: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [Jesus] out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." Justified, sanctified sinners who are in Christ. That's all we are now, and in this life, it is all we can ever hope to be. Hope this has helped, Jude | ||
| George |
Jude, That's about the first thing that has made a little sense. Can you paraphrase that Romans 7 and 8 quote into something digestable to a beginner. Pleeezzz. Thanks for the speedy response...George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude and Patti, I need to sin right now so please listen to me sin. Iím discouraged, brain dead, overwhelmed, deluged, disheartened and some more that arenít nice to think. Mom is so re-dug in to this Adventism that Iím just emotionally flattened. Itís the same old catch phrases that that weíve known all our SDA lives. The 3 angels message, come out of her my people, fear God and give glory for the hour is near, if you love me keep my commandments and a host of others. And then thereís the SABBATH. You just can't get past the first layer of brain cells. Iím trying to un-learn the lies and learn the truth so as to be able to defend the gospel. I want that so bad! There are so many deluded people that are dear to me that I just canít defend my belief to because they have spent a life time deepening their own belief system and Iím such a baby Christian. Then I get asked, ìare you reeeeeeeelly a Christian? All you just want to argue.î This weekend, Iíve learned more things that I was taught that were lies. When will it ever end? I read things that most evangelicals knew when they were 3 years old because they were taught the Bible not EGW! I want to puke. Then you add my husbands UPC religion. These non-Trinitarian people are deception artist that would give EGW a run for her money. His whole family is that way. The people here at his church are so dug in that I truly believe that they are more prepared and can defend their faith way better than most SDAs. Iíve tried miserably to defend my faith with them and Jude, I really think you would have your hands full if you got a hold of one of these guys that knows his KJ only Non-Trinitarian Bible. These guys have such a hold on my husband that he is incapable of even understanding the simple gospel. A lot of these people from his church have a look that you spot from 30 feet away. Itís this dead, blank, empty brainwashed look in their eyes, Iím really serious, they look this way. I get this clammy, hair standing up on the back of my neck feeling when Iím around any of these people. They have legalism down to a science. It is unbelievable! Also, I have a close family member that doesnít want anything to do with God and that tears me up. Now, to top that off, all three of my cats have Leukemia. You know, we as Christians are supposed to have all this faith, but boy oh boy, Iím really feeling the walls fall in on me. I feel like jumping off a sidewalk, but I donít have one. Do any of you guys have this kind of stuff going on? Is this a normal life? Am I just a griper? Also, I have something worse going on that dwarfs the above. Sooooo, now that I have sinned by complaining and unloading on you guys, I ought to go to bed and wake up on the right side of the bed tomorrow. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
George, You're going to wear me out. This material is hard for me too, you know. But as long as you're interested, I'll keep on trying -- not that I'm the best one to try to "explain the unexplainable" mystery. I should mention here that Bruce does a great study on Christ as the "mystery revealed" = "Revelation" = "Apocalypse." I also suggest you re-read Plain Patti's recent posts in this Discussion. She and I are saying exactly the same thing, only from different viewpoints. For Romans I strongly suggest you find a good paraphrase, such as the Good News Bible, and read ALL of Romans in it, beginning to end. I can sense that you're intelligent and have the mind for it. I can offer you a bit of commentary from the textnotes in the NIV. *********** Paul: "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. NIV textnote: The law not only reveals sin; it also stimulates it. The natural tendency in man is to desire the forbidden thing. Paul: For apart from law, sin is dead. NIV textnote: Not nonexistent but not fully perceived. Paul: Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. NIV textnote: Paul reviews his own experience from the vantage point of his present understanding. Before he realized that the law condemned him to death, he was alive. Reference is to the time either before his bar mitzvah [= "son of the law" = the initiatory ceremony recognizing that a Jewish boy, who has reached age 13, begins to take on religious duties and responsibilities] or before his conversion, when the true rigor of the law became clear to him. Paul: I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. NIV textnote: Paul came to the realization that he stood guilty before the law and was condemned to death, because law reveals sin, and sin's wages is death. Law became the avenue through which sin entered -- both in Paul's experience and in that of all mankind. Paul: For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. NIV textnote: Instead of giving life, the law brought condemnation; instead of producing holiness, it stimulated sin. Paul: So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. NIV textnote: Despite the despicable use that sin made of the law, the law was not to blame. The law is God's and as such is holy, righteous and good. Paul: Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! NIV textnote: Whether Paul is describing a Christian or non-Christian experience has been hotly debated [by Christians] through the centuries. Paul: But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. NIV textnote: Sin used a holy thing (law) for an unholy end (death). By this fact the contemptible nature of sin is revealed. Paul: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. NIV textnote: The law had its origin in God. Paul is describing his present (Christian) experience. Even a believer has the seeds of rebellion in his heart. "Sold as a slave to sin" is a phrase so strong that many refuse to accept it as descriptive of a Christian. However, it may graphically point out the failure even of Christians to meet the radical ethical and moral demands of the gospel. It also points up the persistent nature of sin. Paul: I do not understand what I do. NIV textnote: The struggle within creates tension, ambivalence and confusion. Paul: For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. NIV textnote: Even when Paul is rebellious and disobedient, the Holy Spirit reveals to him the essential goodness of the law. Paul: As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. NIV textnote: This is not Paul's attempt to escape moral responsibility but a statement of the great control sin can have over a Christian's life. Paul: I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. NIV textnote: This refers to man's fallen nature. Paul is not saying that no goodness at all exists in Christians. Paul: For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law [meaning "this principle"] at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. NIV textnote: The Mosaic law or God's law generally [is meant]. It is difficult to see how a non-Christian could say this. "Another law" indicates a principle or force at work in Paul preventing him from giving obedience to God's law. Paul's desire is to obey God's law. Paul: What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? NIV textnote: The "body of death" is figurative language for the body of sin that hung on him like a corpse from which he could not gain freedom. [Imagine being handcuffed to a rotting corpse!] Paul: Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. NIV textnote: Deliverance comes, not through legalistic effort, but through Christ. The real self -- the inner being -- delights in God's law. Paul: Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. NIV textnote: The law brings condemnation because it points out, stimulates and condemns sin. But the Christian is no longer "under law" (Romans 6:14). Instead the Christian is united with Christ. Hope this too helps, George. May God keep blessing you as he already has been doing. Jude |
