| Author | Message | ||
| Kristine |
I'm getting an idea.....I am going to ASK the members that I have a close friendship in the church with if they have assurance of salvation...and see what they say. I know that the head elder of our church in Sabbath class the other day did say (in conjunction with the latest lesson) "if it wasn't for my "daddy" (meaning the Lord) I wouldn't have a hope of salvation, it's nothing I've done that merits salvation." I guess he could be making that up, though? I really don't think so, I know him quite well... I don't feel like I have enough knowledge of Ellen White yet, to answer the above posts (and yes, I do feel a bit overwhelmed!) I do realize that it's out of concern, though! I will just start reading and see what I come up with. I have never heard (in answer to an above post) any of the catch phrases that were mentioned "a famous author once said", etc. We are having a series of sermons on Hebrews, and so far what he's said is pretty right on...I haven't heard any veiled statemetents. The emphasis has been on Christ. I don't consider people who aren't in the church the enemy, and I haven't ever heard anyone in my church say that. I must be in a really different church...I should visit another one, and maybe I'd be hearing some of the things I've read here... | ||
| Lynn W |
I was just watching a Mark Finley video of his nationwide crusade and he quoted Ellen White with the words on the screen and said, "that was from my favorite book on the life of Christ, Desire of Ages." No mention of any name. Kristine, I'm sure you're elder was sincere. Sounds like your church has a good grasp of salvation by grace. The problem is that they have a good grasp, not because of Adventism, but in spite of it. While you're asking questions, ask about Ellen White. Ask not only the members, but the leaders what their official stand on her is, and what the church's official stand is. Also ask what beliefs must a person confess in order to get baptized. ********************** Dear Still, praise God for His leading. I pray that you will find a good, Bible-only, non-prophet church. Don't get discouraged if you have to sample a few till you find the right one. They're out there. And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. I Jn 5:11-13 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life. John 5:24 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 | ||
| Plain Patti |
Colleen, Your excellent post reminded me of something that I have wanted to research for awhile. As I have told you, I left the church in the late 70's-early 80s. Prior to my leaving, I was very much "into" the then-current tide of SDAism--Vendon, Heppenstall, Douglass--and something else that came to the forefront about this time. I am not sure if anyone here is old enough to remember the "Theatre of the Universe" book and slide show presentation--(Was it Ken Cox who gave it?) There was a very large book that went along with the series--absolutely beautiful pictures of earth's history according to the Bible and "latter day" events according to Ellen. Anyone with me yet? At any rate, this was the first time that I heard this "vindication of the character of God" theory. I heard Vendon preaching it (with great credibility--he had a wonderful, personal style of presentation.); I attended the slide show presentation itself; this was also the theme of a campmeeting I attended. Now where I am going with this in case I have brought a few confused souls with me thus far... What I would like to know, to research, is the history of this very heretical notion that God's character somehow has to be vindicated before the universe. It is my theory--which I have only my own experience to support--that this was a ploy to make the doctrine of the IJ sound more evangelical and Gospel-oriented and less cultic and legalistic, and thus more palatable to the rest of Christianity. Before this time, there were no questions about what the IJ was for--it was for judging the saints, first the dead, then the living, to make sure God is not going to take any bad seed to heaven. We were constantly warned that we should live holy lives at all times because we never knew when the judgment would move from the dead to the living. (As I recall, I am not exactly sure what the significance was; I think that "probation" was to close when the judgment of the living began.) Anyway, does anyone have any idea, info, feelings, dreams, visions, hallucinations :) etc. about how the emphasis on "God" being on trial in the IJ developed? Thank you in advance, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Good to hear from you. I'm puzzled/angry. You know about how it's hard to know where the Bible starts and EWG ends? Well, today I just found out another lie I was taught through EWG. Did I really understand what you just posted? In a conversation with Mom just yesterday, she mentioned about the vindication of God at the Investigative Judgement? I was taught that as far back as I can remember! How and when will ALL this rubbish be out of my life? The more I read and learn the more of these lies show up. Please excuse my ignorance, but would someone explain how to defend against "this one?" Maybe a new thread called, "Does God Need Vindication." Thank you, momentarily FLATENED...Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
Hey I remember the "Theatre of the Universe," vaguely. That's where most of the artwork for SDA books comes from I think. Why is God on trial? This is just another way to dimish the diety and diefy the devil. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Patti, I'm really not sure where the "God on trial" idea started. I've had the impression that it might have started with Graham Maxwell, but it's possible that it was someone else. I know that in the early 80s I interveiwed him, and he was preaching the "character of God"and the "safe to save" ideas. The character of God idea is that Jesus came to show us that God is love. He is forgiving, and he didn't have to die to forgive us. He forgave us because he's forgiving. Jesus' death was the length to which he went to show us how sinful we were, but it was not essential to our salvation and forgiveness. Maxwell also teaches that God will not punish. The wicked will bring their own destruction on themselves by abandoning God, and abandoning God is separating oneself from life. Eternal death will simply be a person's choice to separate from life. God is a good God, is one of his phrases, and he will not hurt his creatures. The "safe to save" idea is that people will go to heaven when their characters are such that they will not be miserable in heaven. They will be able to glory in its perfection (these are my words, not his) and they will not make trouble or be unhappy in heaven. They will be safe to save. I believe he also made the "vindication of God" popular. Again, however, I want to emphasize that I'm not absolutely sure that the idea began with him. Does anyone else know? | ||
| Lynn W |
"The "safe to save" idea is that people will go to heaven when their characters are such that they will not be miserable in heaven. They will be able to glory in its perfection (these are my words, not his) and they will not make trouble or be unhappy in heaven." That's all Ellen White. I recognize that. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Colleen and all the rest, First of all, Colleen, I must thank you for your absolutely stellar post making an anology between an excuse-making, abusive parent in denial about past perpetrations upon their children and an excuse-making, abusive SDA church in denial about past perpetrations upon its children. I'd never considered that idea before -- it's pure genius and could only have been inspired by God. About the "vendication of God" idea. That began, if my memory serves, with Edward Heppenstall in the 50s and achieved it's greatest theological support among SDA ministers and church leaders in the mid-60s. Heppenstall was a "liberal" SDA theologian in contrast to the "conservative" Herb Douglass, Mervyn Maxwell, LeRoy Froom, etc. Questions on Doctrine came out in the 50s as a "liberal" presentation. It took awhile for the "conservative" reaction to set in. But when it did all heck broke loose. There was a giant purge in the Seminary in 1965-66, which -- largely due to Heppenstall's influence -- was "too liberal." All the "liberals" were purged, such as Ed Vick, Sakai Kubo, Harold Weiss, to name only a few. I can't remember most of them. Heppenstall was spared the axe, perhaps due to his age and influence within the church. But he was eventially eased out and into retirement. "They tossed him aside like an old rag," a Seminary colleague of mine commented at the time. Heppenstall was the instigator of the "vendication of God" theory (VGT) of the Investigative Judgment (IJ). He came up with the theory as a "liberal" adjustment to the new "conservative" reinstatement of the "hard" IJ. It could be said to be the "soft" IJ response. Oddly enough, it caught on with "conservatives," at least to a point. Basically, VGT says that as Seventh-day Adventists get better and better, approaching sinless perfection, God looks better and better in the eyes of the universe. Thus God is "vendicated" by the lives of the "remnant," i.e., SDAs who have received the seal of God in contrast to the mark of the beast that all non-remnant receive (all who do not accept the seventh-day Sabbath as the final test). Eventially, even in the "soft," more "liberal" VGT theory SDAs will still "stand sinless before God without a Mediator." This is the reason the "conservatives," even though they had to "swallow hard," could accept it. Morris Venden was a disciple of Heppenstall's and swallowed VGT hook, line and sinker, and was the first SDA minister, to my knowledge at least, to popularize VGT within Adventism. However, later in his career -- when he was pastoring the "Escobarn church" at PUC and Des Ford was there with his own "liberal" heresy -- Venden became more and more conservative. Some say he became more conservative (1) to save his hide from the "conservative" onslaughts that were being directed at Ford, (2) from the church itself that was still binging on "conservatism" in reaction against the "liberalism" of the "Questions on Doctrine" brand of Adventism, and (3) in obesience to his hyper-conservative, retired-minister father who lived near PUC. But, since VGT was still acceptable to "conservatives" -- although it must be added that they never liked it much and still don't -- Morrie didn't have to give up on it completely, and, as far as I'm aware, is still preaching it, at least in a more watered-down form, at the Voice of Prophecy. The older, more "conservative" theory held that it was the saints = remnant = Seventh-day Adventists who were vendicated by God. You can take your pick between them if you wish. Personally, I wouldn't give you a dime for either one. Now that I see myself as born-again into the kingdom of heaven on earth, all that VGT, anti-VGT stuff is just toothpaste. God is sovereign, he has always been sovereign, and he will always be sovereign. What chutzpah it must seem to the angels to see human beings teaching that they have the power, the authority, and the intelligence to vendicate God! "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak to them in is wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion: I will declare the decree. The Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Psalm 2:4-7. Praise, praise God! I've got to go now. More later, if you have questions. God bless you all, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Great postís everyone. Jude, awesome. Itís good to have someone on board that has actually rubbed shoulders with some of these guys giving indisputable credibility to some of their subjects. Thank you. I knew the VGT was earlier than the 80s. I remember it so well from the 60s. I asked a few weeks ago if anyone had seen the page on one of Dale Ratzlaffís links that went something like this, ìwere you told these LIES, or 15 LIES you were taught by EGWî. Iíd sure appreciate it if someone could help me find it as Iíve spent hours looking for it! Lyyyyyyyyyyyyyynn, this is right down your ally. As Jude so Jeaudifully put it, ìNow that I see myself born-again into the kingdom of heaven on this earth, all this VGT, anti VGT stuff is just toothpasteî. Still, I would like a list of some of these ìoff the wallî ideas/theologies/doctrines we were taught. I just learned last month that that Adam and Eve were NOT 16 and 14 feet tall!? And that the thing about the serpent having WINGS was NOT in the Bible and a few more like that! Lynn, start compiling! Thank you........Maryann | ||
| Lydell |
Kristine, be sure not to just stop with the question "are you saved?" You must continue with the question of something like, "if you live to be say 80 and are still living an imperfect life, will you go to heaven?" Another interesting discussion question would be: I've been talking to someone who says they are a Christian and they flatly refuse to accept the teaching about the sabbath. If they were to die, will they go to heaven? You see, the SDA prophet has said that the "seal of God is the sabbath". And if you don't have the seal of God by keeping the sabbath then you aren't really saved. And that is the official teaching of the denomination. It is sanctification by works. See Eph. 1:13, 4:30 for a discovery of what the "seal of God" is. I'm glad to hear that you are hearing sermons on the book of Hebrews, but I am wondering what your pastor will have to say about Heb. 8:12 and 9:12. Will he make a point of noting that Christ entered the Most Holy Place and sat down at the right hand of God immediately after his resurrection? When he preaches on chapter 4, will he make the connection between v. 16 and v. 14, 9, and 3? When he speaks on Melchizedek from chapter 7 will he make much of v. 12 where "there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law?" Or v. 18 will he recognize that "the former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." Will he continue on from there to v. 28 "but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever....and keep going into chapter 8 ..."the point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven..." and will he mention that this happened before 1844? Will he draw totally from the OT for his understanding of Hebrews? Or will he do as the apostles did and draw from the life of Christ to interpret the OT? Will he ever refer back to the book of Romans (particularly chapters3:21-8:11) to get a perspective on the law? Will he ever go to Gal. for understanding of Heb.? Especially chapters 2:15-5? Please do get back to us and report on what you find from your research over the next month. I'm sure everyone here would be as interested as I in what you find. | ||
| Onesimus |
Dear Kristine: I have been reading over these conversations and two things come to mind. There has been a lot of discussion regarding the falseness of EGW and how she blatantly contradicts scripture. However, more devious than her writings is the fact that the SDA church has published its own Bible called the Clear Word. They have altered certain key passages to fit their theology, ie IJ and Sabbath. Having your own version of the Bible is blatantly cultic and dangerous. To see comparisons of Scripture and the Clear Word, see Dale Ratzlaff's website. Secondly, when you have a church who tenacously and knowingly clings to false doctrine, a false prophet and an altered Bible, who's spirit is really in control there? You may say that you don't believe IJ, etc but you still fall under the spirit of deception when you worship in an SDA church. Continue to seek God's leading as you search for truth. Love in Christ, Onesimus | ||
| Cas |
Some of the comments re: the IJ, and the Judgement of God's character are prompting me to do some study on this in the next couple days! Colleen, you quoted 1Cor 6:3 says we will judge the angels, including Satan. As Adventist's were we not taught that during the millinial rein in heaven the saints would be judging the lost, and God would be vindicated as to why our loved ones were not saved etc. I will be studying this but is there other references that refer to what the puropse of the 1000 yr. rein is other than judging angels? Gosh, there is so much to relearn. Time to get the Strong's Exaustive Concordance out!! Friends, I appreciate all of you, and the thoughts from the heart. Some of us have SO MUCH in common, and the same thorns in the side! Thank You Jesus for the Inspiration I find here! | ||
| Lynn W |
Rev 20:2-7 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, | ||
| Joni |
It is amazing how your comments have been very helpful to us. Before this thread started, my 25 year old son, Jacob, came to stay with us to recover from surgery. When he got here I gave him the "CULTIC DOCTRINE OF SDA's" to read because he had so many questions about the beliefs of Adventism. He met a girl on a trip he took to Mexcio with some Adventists this past year and they have been emailing each other. He has been sharing with her what he has been reading in "CULTIC DOCTRINE". She emailed back with quotes she wanted him to read from EGW. We laughed and I could only say "my point exactly" Then she wanted him to read "1844" by Clifford Goldstein. She also sent him a whole study on the IJ. (It looks like the one from the Revelation seminar that you mark in your Bible). She told him to mark his Bible with this study. Jacob was wondering "what happened in 1844"? I have not studied prophecy since I left the the Church, there has been too many other wonderful things I am learning. I only know the SDA interpretation of prophecy. I did not know how to answer him. Could we have a study to debrief us former Adventists from all the wrong prophecy we learned to the correct truth????. Does anyone have books to reccomend to us. There is so much out there. God bless you all. I usually do not have much time to write but I do pray for everyone here and really appreciate all you write. Joni | ||
| BRUCE H |
Cas For another look at the 1000 year reign, Look at the DISCUSSION - KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. | ||
| LouiseS |
MARYANN, for your Lies by EGW, try "What Seventh-day Adventists Don't Tell You" at DoveNET - link from www.truthorfables.com That document is mostly about EGW. What you're looking for sounds like something from either of those 2 sites. LYDELL, some time ago you asked for "private communication" with me. I'd like that, but don't want to give my email address on a public forum. How can this be arranged? | ||
| Lydell |
Louise, I'd love to hear from you. davdell@snowhill.com | ||
| Maryann |
Louise, Thank you for the map to truthorfables. I have spent the last couple hours printing out some of this "stuff". I'm amazed at how many lies are still in my head. How am I to know? unless it's pointed out? You can't chase down your every thought just to see if was a lie? I'm so thankful someone did it already. Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Jude, Thank you for straightening out the Vindication of God Theory for me! Lynn, Thanks for the millennium references. Casóthe way Richard and I figured out which of our SDA prophecies were false was by studying the book of Revelation with non-Adventist friends. God promises a blessing to everyone who reads that book, and that promise has been abundantly true for us. Revelation simply does not teach eschatology the way we learned it. Even though the book is couched in symbol and metaphor (I believe that God doesn't want us to know all the details in advance; he tells us enough, though, that when something is happening we can say, "Oh, I get it--this is what the prophecies were about!") it is clear that things are going on that are completely different from our SDA understanding. For example, the Three Angels which appear everywhere in the church are, in Revelation, three angels followed by a fourth angel, and they have no more and no less importance than all the other angels in Revelation. Between reading the Cultic Doctrine by Dale Ratzlaff and then reading the books of Daniel and Revelationópraying for the Holy Spirit to enlighten usówe cleared up an amazing amount of aberrant teaching! By the way, one of the small details we finally cleared up is that small black cloud the size of a man's hand that's supposed to appear in the east when Jesus is about to come. You guessed itóthat cloud is not in the Bible! Another thing that's not in the Bible is the detail that Eve wandered away from Adam and succumbed to the serpent's temptation. The Bible says she took the fruit and gave some to Adam "who was with her." By the way, a comprehensive concordance is also a helpful tool. You can look up all occurrences of certain words. The Bible is a truly rich teacher. By reading it with the help of the Holy Spirit, you really can learn the truth. God is so faithful! | ||
| dwayne |
In the sanctuary system, whose life was represented by the blood of the sacrifice? Did someone say, "Jesus Christ's life"? Absolutely correct, according to the Bible! Check out Leviticus 17:11; 1Peter 18,19. Aaaaarrrrggghhh, wrong answer, according to Ellen White. In GC p.418, EGW says that the blood of the sacrifice represented the forfeited life of the sinner! And from this wrong conclusion, came even more errors including Jesus taking sin into heaven, the investigative judgement, Jesus returning to earth a second time with sin, and the father of all lies being sin bearer of God's people! "... Behold! The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29. Look! The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who scapegoats the sin of the world! For He Alone is Worthy! |
