| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
JUDE! I hear ya! This place is downright addicting! Every day I tell myself, I GOT to get other things done! Now I'm printing up all you guy's wonderful posts to share with a guy I never thought I'd have to convince on the Sabbath. BUT, he's not Adventist. Should be interesting. Lydell, I was going to thank you for improving on my post. I'm sure I didn't say it to well, but you did a much better job. Allenette, do they really make a satelite dish just for 3ABN? Sounds like those loud, continuous propaganda stations you hear about in communist countries. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Lydell, I have to try to keep this brief, because I'm supposed to be working on a project that's taking more time than I had thought, way more. As far as focusing on the "we are miserable sinners" part or on the "but saved by the grace of God anyway" part, I would say we need to focus on neither part, but on Christ and his life, teachings, death, resurrection, ascension, and acceptance by our Father. You see, I think that too-high self-esteem (arrogance) and two-low self-esteem (depression) are really only two sides of the same coin. Isn't it true that the person who is "sitting on top of the world" and bursting with too-high self-esteem is exactly the same person who, when "bearing the weight of the world," is imploding with too-low self-esteem? And isn't it then only circumstances (perceived success or failure) that determines for this person his self-worth? And if so, then this person isn't really depending on Christ for his self-worth at all, whether too high or too low in the esteem department. Christ doesn't want us to have to live on such a roller-coaster of too-high highs and too-low lows. For Christ not only knocked down the high-worthers. He also raised up the low-worthers. And he made them all, if they were willing, to be equally Christ-worthers. So if Christ is one's only self-esteem, then one has Christ-esteem or Christ-worth within, the highest esteem and the greatest worth possible. This is what Christ meant, I believe, when he told the thief on the cross, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Meaning, Today you will be a member of my church, an enjoyer of my paradise, a citizen of my kingdom of heaven, a branch of my vine, a sheep of my fold, a "living" stone in the house whose chief cornerstone is Christ, a fully functioning cell of the body of Christ, a lion of the pride of "the lion of the tribe of Judah," a no-longer-prodigal son in my household, a no-longer-lost coin in my bank. This is not as confusing as we tend to make it. If the ecclesia (those called out of Satan's kingdom of too-high or too-low ego-systems by God to focus on Christ rather than on themselves) is identical to the citizens of kingdom of heaven on earth here and now, then isn't it also "paradise"? In short: "paradise" = "the church" = "the kingdom of heaven." It is said by the clueless that we cannot be living in heaven/paradise right now, because we are still suffering. But to the contrary, Jesus told many parables saying that we will indeed have to endure suffering in heaven/paradise this side of the harvest. The parable of the wheat vs. the weeds, for instance, is set in "the kingdom of heaven." What, then, makes heaven "heaven"? What makes paradise "paradise"? What makes it enjoyable if there has to be suffering? The answer is the faith, hope, and especially love imparted daily by Christ Jesus. The pure thrilling joy one feels by giving and receiving love among those who are also in Christ can never be experienced by those outside the kingdom or by the "weeds" growing within it. And the essence of this joy is always Christ and never self. So, my answer is: Focus on self not at all, whether as "poor sinner" or as "good deeder." For both foci are wrong and lead to depression and anxiety disorder in the low-self-esteemer and to pharisaical pride in the high-self-esteemer. Making any sense? Jude | ||
| Lydell |
Well, Jude, it sounds like we are basically saying about the same thing there, just coming at it from a different angle. It is all always Christ. That's what I mean by looking at the "saved by the grace of Christ anyway" reference. It takes the focus off of us and places it back on Christ and His victory. Maybe all of what I was getting at above is what Lynn had pointed out. It sounds like you are confusing deeds with wrong motives behind the deeds. I could see need for confession of the wrong motives, but not the deeds themselves. I can see the need to confess wrong motives of seeking self-glorification of some sort in relating what changes the Lord has made in our lives. But I can't agree that we need to confess that somehow we are sinful in telling "what great things the Lord has done for me." | ||
| Lydell |
My most current example would be this: a friend came to our ladies' Bible study today bubbling with excitement. She had woken this morning with the feeling that today was the day the Lord wanted her to take a step out in faith and apply for a certain job she would like to have. We have been encouraging her for quite some time that she could do this with his help. Finally, today she actually followed through and did it. She went in, applied for the job, AND was immediately interviewed for the job as well, and kept calm through the interview. She doesn't know yet whether or not she gets the job. But it doesn't matter to her. She was pumped because she had actually stepped out in faith and had seen her Father's hand there and felt his nearness to her. What she was sharing was not some prideful declaration of her own courage or wisdom. What she was sharing was that God is truly the believers strength and shield today, right now, even in a job search. She was testifying that it isn't just that, "God saved me 3 years ago," but that God cares about me and my children now. And through that was her declaration that God is a GOOD God to all of His children. The other lady who was in the room and is searching for a job as well was not put off by her story. Rather she was encouraged in a way that was much more effective and applicable to her present situation than if the lady had told her, "well you see, Jesus came and died for your sins. He rose again the third day and reigns in glory. And there you have it." Salvation is only the very first step of what the Lord does in our lives, and what he is willing to do. If we don't tell the story of what happens after that in the relationship, then we are leaving out the part that tells that there IS a relationship to be had with Him. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Lydell again, If the word "confess" can only mean to confess what is wrong and never to confess what is right, then how do you explain the following Scriptures? Matthew 10:32. "Whosoever therefore shall confess me [Jesus] before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." John 9:22. "If any man did confess that he was the Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue." Romans 10:9. "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 15:9. "For this cause I will confess to thee [God] among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." Philippians 2:11. "Every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord." 1 John 4:15. "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." Revelation 3:5. "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I [Jesus Christ] will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." I think we need to stand on common ground with respect to this definiton first before we can really talk "to," rather than "past," each other. Only blessings, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lydell, I have a question to respectfully ask you: Do you think that one can ever separate one's objective actions from the subjective motives that lie behind them without becoming schizophrenic? This is a real issue for me, not sophistry. More blessings, Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
I may be missing the real point of this discussion, but I'm going to venture an observation. I think I understand what both Jude and Lydell are saying. After doing our Galatians Bible studies last year, I realized that WORKS is the condition of natural man. Whether we're trying to please God or live well with no belief or please a pagan god, we live by works. The point at which this insight hit home was when we studied Galatians 4:8-9. Paul said to the beleaguered Galatians, "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you known Godóor rather are know by Godóhow is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" The amazing point is this: the Galatians were not turning BACK to Judaism. They had been pagans, worshiping a pantheon of gods. Paul's concern at this point is not that they're returning to paganism but that they're being seduced to adopt Jewish legalistic rituals. So then, how can they be "turning back" if they've never been Jews? The only conclusion can be that observing legalistic rituals within any religious system is the same thing: salvation by works, or salvation by your own efforts. And that is NOT salvation. Natural, not-born-again man is legalistic. Without Jesus we try to make our lives acceptable to ourselves by whatever method makes sense to us at the time: eastern philosophy, Christian traditions, atheism, feminism, communism, post modernismÖyou name the ism. Only in Christ are our works of no value regarding our salvation. Therefore, I say both Lydell and Jude are correct. Without Christ, our good works are the product of our "natural man". They're part of our attempt to make our lives palatable and rewarding. Our efforts to "be good" are as tainted by sin as is our hedonism. At the same time, we have no reason to feel guilty for who we are once we accept Christ. Our good and bad deeds will still happen, but with Christ we are functioning from a completely new position. In Christ we are no longer "sinners"; we are "saints". Our vices no longer define us. With Christ's righteousness on us our sins have been covered. We need to see ourselves as sons and daughters of God, not as alcoholics or anorectics or gamblers. Our identity is new! That new identity doesn't mean that the old habits are instantly gone. It does mean, however, that when we truly embrace our new identities, we are no longer ruled by our weaknesses; we have a means to live in victory. Yes, our good deeds are as tainted as our bad deeds when we generate them. Yes, in Christ we no longer have to grovel in our failures of either motive or behavior. Being in Jesus is a whole new paradigm! Praise God for healing us in exactly the ways we each need to be healed! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hello again, Lydell, I keep thinking of things, your well-put statement, for example: "I could see need for confession of the wrong motives, but not the deeds themselves." I can agree with you as you obviously intend it. But I think it is incomplete, for it does not recognize the value of confessing the good. Notice Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Following is an example of Robert Brown, who owns a successful automobile dealership, confessing the good: "Our Father in heaven, here in the silence of my lonely closet where no one else can hear, for the first time in my life, I confess to you with my mouth tonight that Jesus, whom you have raised from the dead, is my personal Lord and Savior." And you can see no need for this? I think you can. Now, to take the prayer another step farther: "I confess, dear Father, that I gave a large offering today in church, one thousand dollars, which is rather large compared to the last two quarters given by the widow [with the three small children and who is employed at minimum-wage]. In fact, I think the widow should have used that fifty cents to buy milk for her baby. "But something keeps nagging around the edges of my mind, Lord. Did I donate the thousand to impress the pastor? So that he will listen to my arguments in the coming church board meeting about buying that pipe organ? You know I'd far rather have it than the day-care center that the pastor is itching to build first. "Dear Father, if my motives are wrong in this, please help me to see them for what they really are. For I cannot tell. I feel as though I'm in a fog. I'm frankly confused. And I need your Holy Spirit to guide and direct my giving decisions. "In Jesus' name I pray, amen." Now here is a man who is obviously sincere and who loves his Lord. But he is "a baby in Christ" and is still blinded by his wealth and sheltered from the realities of the nitty-gritty values of everyday life that the poor widow and her children must endure. Because from his youth up he has always had plenty of money. His parents were greedy and self-serving and had "imprinted" Robert with their values from his earliest childhood. He feels, as did the Pharisees of old, that if you are poor it is because you made wrong choices and failed to work hard. And if you are rich, it is because you made right choices, worked hard, and deserved your wealth. And he is unabashedly in the habit of unconsciously using his money to do things that are not bad or wrong in and of themselves -- such as donating toward a pipe organ so he can hear the church organist play Bach on a genuine pipe organ of a Sunday morning church service. But the brutal fact is that his priority may not be God's priority or plan for his life and the lives of those around him in his church congregation, such as the poor widow and her three children. In fact, whenever the pastor speaks with him about church finances and what to do about the poor in the congregation, Robert loves to quote Jesus in Matthew 26:11, "For the poor ye have always with you; but me ye have not always." This quote is in the context of the woman who "wasted" extremely expensive ointment by breaking its alabaster container and anointing Jesus. The disciples, said with indignation, "To what purpose is this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for much and given to the poor!" Matthew 26:8-9. Robert disagrees with the disciples, agrees with Jesus, and compares the expensive ointment to the expensive pipe organ. The pastor can only shake his head and walk away, praying hard. Clearly, this is a work only the Holy Spirit can accomplish. Now, you know the Lord dearly loves Robert and has much work to do for him. But the Good Shepherd leads his sheep very very gently. So, if Robert, the wealthiest man in town, never prays about his "good work" -- giving tons of money limited to the purchase of a church pipe organ -- how will he ever come to his senses about his unconscious motives and how they influence the life of the pastor and the widow? Your turn, Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Jude and Lydell You guys bring a real good point home for me. I to strugle with this, but I pray daily that the Lord will give me the correct motives and guidence. To me you guys are talking SOLID FOOD not babies milk. I love it, for there are those of us on this web site that do not doubt our salvation anymore and want to move on to SOLID FOOD. And SOLID FOOD is the teachings that bring us into being filled with the Spirit and the POWER OF GOD in our lives that change us!!!! Bruce H | ||
| Lydell |
Colleen, I believe you have stated it all very well. As unbelievers, good deeds tend to be for the purpose of warm fuzzies, upholding ourselves and our goodness, or promoting some self-interest. As believers we are to move into the realm of "let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven." That doesn't just have to do with the things that we do, but also with telling about what great things the Lord has done for and in us, Jude. Our pastor has a little ditty he gave us that has taken a while to hit home. "I am not the person I am because I do the things I do. Rather I do the things I do because I am the person God says I am." When we are allowing Christ to dwell in us, he changes us from the inside out to be the people who do the things he wants done. Our focus moves from looking at the deeds, or looking at ourselves, to looking at Him. And yes, Jude, I do think he takes us to the place of doing things out of a pure motive of acting in love. We literally allow His love to flow through us to touch someone else without a thought that this is somehow adding a feather in our cap. We truly speak our declaration (confession, as you said) for something he has done in our lives, some change he has brought in us, like my friend did yesterday out of a heart full of thanksgiving, and not out of an attitude of "well look at me, ain't I grand." If the motive is to glorify ourselves or heap some sort of honor on ourselves, then the deed stinks. If the motive is done out of flowing with His unselfish love then the deed is beautiful. Your original comments indicated that when we tell of some good thing he has done in our lives or through us that we must confess our sinful state and that we were being like a Pharisee. That is very different from putting the focus on HIM in our declaration (a confession) of, like my friend said yesterday with tears of gratitude and fairly bursting with joy, "I am just so in awe of what God did! He gave me courage to step out and do that." For her to have stated it, "well I am just so sinful and incapable, but look what I did." Would have been to turn the focus to her and who she was. It is when we are saying things like "I am so excited. You won't believe what happened this morning. God did the most awesome thing..." that the focus is on HIM not us. And that is how we glorify the Father and not ourselves. Perhaps this is what you intended with your original comments? It seems that when we are doing things out of a heart filled with his love, we are naturally going to immediately be talking to him about what he has done. "Thank you Lord. I can't believe you enabled me to do that. That wasn't me. It had to have been you cause I surely could never have done it." "Thank you for the privilege of being used by you. But God it seems like such a very small thing. Nothing I can say or do is going to change their situation really. I can't possibly bring them through their problem. Lord invade their life with your presence. Change this situation for them. Bring them through this in victory. Let them literally feel your love and understand that you are their Father." Or in the case of your example, "God take the pastors thoughts captive to your own. Give him your divine direction for how to wisely spend the money you bring to the church. And Lord, bring my own thoughts into line with yours. Show me if their is anything I can do to help this widow. Lord lead her steps to a better job so that she can provide more effectively for her family. Guard her from the attack that satan is likely to bring against her this week because she has unselfishly and humbly given. Open my heart to learn how to give the way she does." As you said Bruce, it's acting out of being filled with the Spirit and having that power in our lives so that we can act under His authority. | ||
| Lynn W |
I'm loving this thread, it really is the meat. Jude, your point was not lost about confessing the good as well as the bad. The difference is, that when we confess the bad (deeds or motives), we need to also ask forgiveness and to repent. I think the rich man gets at the heart of Ps. 139:23-24 when he says, "Dear Father, if my motives are wrong in this, please help me to see them for what they really are. For I cannot tell." I think this is a good example of confessing the good: "Thank you Lord. I can't believe you enabled me to do that. That wasn't me. It had to have been you cause I surely could never have done it." I think you're all saying the same thing about our focus being on Jesus and not ourselves. | ||
| Lynn W |
Here's a thought to toss into the pot. Joseph speaking: "Now you must tell my father of all my splendor in Egypt, and all that you have seen; and you must hurry and bring my father down here." Gen 45:13 Now at first glance, this sure looks arrogant on Joseph's part. But we need to check the motive. This was done so Jacob would know that Joseph was alive and thriving. It brought great joy to Jacob to know that once His son was "dead," but now he's alive. | ||
| David |
"I will rejoice greatly in the Lord, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with garland, And as a bride adorns herself with jewels. For as the earth brings forth its sprouts, And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up, So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring up before all the nations." Isaiah 61:10,11 I think that these two verses more than adequately summarize this thread. Verse 1O is effect and cause; The effect on us of the garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness is rejoicing and exultation. Exultation is a form of bragging. The cause puts into perspective our helplessness to rejoice and exult. The second part of v. 10 says that the bridegroom decks himself with garlands and the bride adorns herself with jewels. The Lord is extravagant towards us...and what is the result? We become fertile ground, capable of producing anything that God plants in us and the harvest is righteousness and praise. The work of God is to plant the things into us that He wants to see accomplished in US and in this dying world, things that we in our flesh have no desire to do. Things that when we do them satisfy our deepest longings and make us marvel at how God uses us. It is that testimony that bears much fruit. A servant knows his place in his master's house. He seeks his master's glory. He is his master's hands and feet. And when he gets together with the other servants, he brags (exults) on what his master has done for him that tend to make him a better servant. I hope that that statement does not offend anyone. Paul said that boasting in the Lord is the only boasting worth doing. In some instances this boasting provokes others to seek a similiar revelation or relationship with Jesus, thinking, "Hey, if Jesus can do that for her, why not for me?" So the garden starts reaping a harvest of righteousness. Of course others sometimes do get offended by the testimony because they have not taken their first steps into servanthood and they don't recognize exactly what is going on in the lives of the more experienced servants. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Jesus said that we all need the heart of a servant to be successful in His kingdom. The person who has answered the call to serve has answered the call to self denial. The flesh is killed by true servanthood. Jesus is the example of what the true servant should be like and it is His example that His Spirit will empower us to conform to. As we shed ourselves daily and ask Him, "Today, how can I serve you?" we will see marvelous things accomplished for His kingdom and His righteousness will shine through us like the lights of a thousand cities sitting upon a thousand hilltops at midnight. I will exult in that knowledge, knowing that I am no longer sitting in the dark and that I am indeed a new creature in Christ and that in my garden grow the things of eternal value. I'm exulting because I know where I have been. I am exulting because I know where I am going. I am exulting because I know that He is using me for His grand purposes that will have eternal results. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thank you and bless you all, And especially Lynn and Lydell (ever notice that both your names begin with "Ly"?), for your insights and observations. I think, as each has come to know better what the other means, that we see our ideas as converging rather than diverging. This has to be the work of the Holy Spirit, as far as I can tell. Now I want to add a postscript, which I will call, CONFESS YOUR GOOD WORKS TO GOD Robert Brown is not and has never been a Pharisee. He does not "pray standing in the synagogues [churches] and in the corners of the streets" as they did, "that they may be seen of men." Matthew 5:5. He prayed in his closet. And, you can believe me, God noticed! Nor does he give offerings as they did and continue to do "that they may have glory of men" (Matthew 6:1-4). For when he gives an offering in church he makes sure it is always in the form of a check sealed in an envelope. Besides the church pastor, only the church treasurer knows. No, Robert is no Pharisee. But he is unconsciously manipulative. He knows that by writing a check he can "write off" the amount on his income tax return as a "charitable gift." He is also in cahoots with the church organist, and together they are pushing very hard, against the wishes and opinion of nearly everyone else in the congregation, for that wonderful pipe organ. Not because of the prestige a pipe organ would bring to "his" church, does he push, for, remember, he may be manipulative and secritive, but this man is no Pharisee. He just wants to give his buddy, the church organist, with whom Robert roomed with in college, the gift of a pipe organ. And, even more importantly, Robert simply wants to hear Bach played on a real pipe organ on Sunday, and, since he's been in the habit of getting everything he wants from his baby-hood up, by darn he's going to get his way! That's Robert. And that's the person the pastor, also Robert's buddy from college days, and the Holy Spirit have to work with. So when Robert "confesses his good works" that's what the Holy Spirit has to listen to. The moral to this story goes like this: Confessing our good works to God in prayer is like presenting an offering or gift to God. Abel presented an animal from his flock and the Lord looked on it with favor. Cain presented fruit from his orchard, but the Lord did not look on it with favor. Why not? I thought the Lord was a vegetarian, if not a vegan! But God is never ever mocked. God always looks on the heart. God knows there's nothing wrong with a fruit offering. (The Old Testament has provision for offerings from the plant kingdom as well as from the animal kingdom.) And it is still true that "by their fruits ye shall know them." An NIV text note to the Cain and Able story is instructive: "The contrast is not between an offering of plant life and an offering of animal life, but between a careless, thoughtless offering and a choice, generous offering (cf. Lev. 3:16). Motivation and heart action are all-important, and God looked with favor on Abel and his offering because of Abel's faith (Hebrews 11:4)." And so I'll leave you with this comment: If we do not confess our good works, then how are we going to know whether they are acceptable to God? And if we don't know whether our good works are acceptable to God, then how are we going to know whether they are being motivated by the Holy Spirit? Blessings to all, Jude | ||
| Allenette |
Jude: We dont even know if God EATS, never mind WHAT! LOL. A little more accuracy in our parablizing (is that a word?)ok? just kidding Sorry to be so far behind in a reply to yours of a day or so ago -- I realize you were playing around with it but, to say that we have no control over what we eventually do, that God is "up there" somewhere gleeful about what we will do because there's nothing we can do about it, sounds too much like the old predestination or even "we're all just acting out our parts in the cosmic Sin Play--and the universe is watching" stuff I couldnt swallow as a kid. Have I misinterpreted you? just wondering. :-) Because as I see it, there goes TRUE free will out the window. Can this be a philosophical question rather than a theological one just this once? meant friendly! | ||
| Colleentinker |
JudeóI like your "Robert/church organist/pastor" example. I have to confess that I've often had to confess "good works". In fact, I'm finding myself more convicted about certain "good works" than I used to be. Yes, I believe that part of our struggle with the sinful flesh is that we have mixed motives. Almost never are our works thoroughly sinful or thoroughly pure. It seems to me that the longer I love Jesus, the more complex my motives often seem. Recently I had a most amazing thing happen in which I apparently did something helpfulócompletely without knowledge or forethoughtóat the very moment someone was discouraged. I was overwhelmed with a sense of God's sovereignty and care and goodness, and I thanked him for prompting me, etc. etc. I KNOW the whole event was a "God-thing", to borrow an expression. But I told the story in a setting in which I knew the listeners would understand the Holy Spirit-driven components of it. As soon as it was out of my mouth, I realized that a part of me wanted those people to see me as responsive to the Holy Spirit, and I felt ashamed of myself. I have definitely had to confess that subtle motive to God and ask forgiveness for speaking without listening for his prompt first. Absolutely, Jude, the "flesh" continues to try to exert itselfóand often succeeds, however subtly. While I'm here I just want to make a comment about predestination. (I'm not trying to answer Allenette for you, Jude!) I've come to believe, as I've said before, that truth is a paradox. I've come to believe that in some way predestination is absolutely true. God is sovereign, and his will is done in spite of us and sometimes through us. I also believe that the other half of the paradox is true: we are creatures of free will and the power of choice. But (and here I can't explain this very well because I don't completely understand it) to believe either half of the paradox without the other is a form of heresy. I just know that since I've allowed God to be sovereign in my mind and heart and soul, my awe and gratitude and inisght have deepened, and I don't feel threatened by his foreknowledge or his choosing or his power as I used to. Jude? | ||
| Allenette |
Colleen: First, obviously I dont know you personally so I could be WAY off,and I fully realize that this is your website, funded by you but....why is it that so many deeply religious people simply REFUSE to own their life? That is to say, a therapist would have a field day if a patient refused to lay claim to something POSITIVE that they made a decision about and something good happened....I'm no expert but a lot of what people post on here, thanking God for whatever good fortune just comes off sounding like very LOW self-esteem; like they are convinced they couldnt make a good independent decision on their own if their lives depended on it??? And I mean this kindly, but as a PK who's watched the type of people attracted to SDA, I see it perpetrated and massaged here, albeit inadvertently. Everyone on here has at least 1) made the decision to purchase a computer, (many people in the world still dont) 2) learned a few rudimentary functions so they can communicate, 3) found an obscure website that appeals to them (meant friendly) 4) had the courage to put their thoughts "out there" for the world to see. Yet, they tend to give God credit for everything from deciding what to eat today, to deciding where their money should go (pipe organ vs day care center--a 'parable, I know), to accepting or looking for some pleasant job???? C'mon people....I think if God reads this website he would think you might still be functioning in "disfunctional" mode...understandable for those still smarting from the SDA indoctrination (a form of Big Brother)...but, He (or she or it) gave us brains to think and USE, and while I might be mistaking this for a "Praise and Worship" site, there is still a lot of baby steps being taken here. If I might extend the parent mode for a moment, altho female, I would have to go into daddy mode or even more severe, DRILL SARGEANT mode, and start barking out some orders like, "get off your duff soldier, MARCH MARCH! what are you some kinda baby? DO I HAVE TO KICK YOUR A** or what? Get with it, wake up, smell the coffee--er, Postum " I think that a lot of people posting here are still visualizing God as Benevolent Massa. [putting on my armor, preparing for attack which may not come except for some feather pillows thrown my way :-) ] | ||
| Maryann |
Wow Allenette, You and George need to talk. Have you noticed his postís? You also, believe it or not, sound like me a bit!! I really have an axe to grind with some mind sets. Iíll tell a story that starts out around the bush but finally gets there. I tried out this church in ë95 that turned out to be a very VERY legalistic Baptist church. Of course, me here, was not the least bit shy about being a former SDA. It was like I had aids. I really thought that these people would be happy to have a wayward sheep in their flock. Well, the first thing that happened was I had to be SAVED. It was a very pressured, production line, NNNNNext, and they saved another and so on. That didnít agree with me. I was very sincere and wanted to turn my life around. Sooooo, I tried to fit in and learn this ìnewî Christianity. My kids were in their kids program on Wed. night AWANA (great program). I wanted to have Bible study, but found that since the duty of being ìsavedî had already taken place, there was no big need to mess with me to much. Finally I got the pastor to study with me and I had all these questions about ìonce saved always savedî, the Sabbath and so on. Well this guy had no clue how to talk to a former. Two or three verses here and there were enough to pacify his congregation on these subjects so a few more should have pacified me. He got irritated with me!!! Said I needed to HAVE faith, study and listen to ìolder womenî like the Bible said. About this time, I realized that I was in trouble, but being the type to hang on and play the hand out , I had to see what the dealer was holding. First, he and his followers taught the gospel in such a way that my son announced that he was saved and that was really cool because he now was sure he was going to go to heaven and didnít have to obey me or anyone else, ëcause he was sure heaven was in his pocket. When I complained, the teachers and pastor blamed me because I was asking to many questions and confusing my kids?! Second, he taught that ìALLî men were uncontrollable animals and need to go everywhere in twoís to protect each other. In fact when he talked to me or another gal, he would climb over the pew to separate himself from a female so as to protect himself from evil thoughts. I figured he was thinking evil thoughts ëcause he had to be removed from me by one row of pews. He gave the devil way to much credit. Third, he taught that ìwomenî were to be silent in church. His wife would sit next to me to keep putting ice cubes in the boiling water. Forth, he kicked me and my kids out of the whole church because I openly disagreed with him that women shouldnít pray in prayer meeting (not that I wanted to!). Only men had the line to God to pray for the sick etc. The women were encouraged to pray among themselves. It was not tolerable for me to drop my kids off and pick them up on Wed. I was REQUIRED to sit through these arrogant men pray the same thing over and over and over for 2 hours!! Fifth, and where I have a humongous problem with some religious folk (and I hope that I donít step on any or many toes!) is this Robot for God attitude and way of life. Example....the piano player had migraines that would kill a mule. She would have to stay home in a dark room puking sometimes for weeks. It was horrible. I told her all excited that I knew of a Dr. that could fix her up and mentioned that my Mom had migraines for 30 years and this Dr. fixed her up and that I knew others that had similar problems and he helped them. I myself had, had an accident and lost 90% of the use of my right arm and I now appear to be 100% thanks to him. Instead of her saying, cool, lets check it out, she says, ìI gotta go pray about itî. Okay, next week I asked what the answer was. Well, I donít have a way to get down there (40mi). I said, ìIíll take youî. She says, ìI gotta go pray about itî. Next week, I asked what God said, she then came up with, ìwe really donít have the moneyî. I said , ìno problem, Iíll pay for it completely in fullî. Her eyes bugged out and guess what she said, ìI gotta go pray about itî!? Next week I asked what the answer was and she went on about God hadnít really given her an answer. I talked to the pastors wife about it and she said that they all had prayed about it and God hadnít given the nod. I was dumbstruck and suggested that maybe God sent me to this church so as to be an avenue to help for this poor gal. Another gal had an unbelieving husband that never came to church. I asked her if she wanted to go do something sometime and guess what she told me? ì I gotta go pray about it!î This went on for months. There were numerous incidents like this. I donít feel we are Godís robots. We and every single living thing are dependant on God, true, very true. But does God expect us, his creation in his image to be mindless blobs with our eyes looking up and not looking at the ground in front of us? I donít think so!!!!!! We know God put the air for us to breath and we are dependant upon him to maintain it, but are we to pray and ask God for his blessing and permission to breath in every breath?!! I donít think so. If there is no milk for the cereal, do I ask God if I should run to the store to get a gallon? I donít think so! Do I thank God for having a vehicle to go buy the milk and the health to go out the door to drive to the store? Of course!! I have been a bit on the short side of praying to God and thanking Him for what He has done etc., but can you understand why? There are more people driven away by the kind of stuff that I described above. If someone offers to take you and pay for you to go to a ìlegitimateî Dr. do you have to pray for months about it or just accept what God probably sent your way. Grrrrrrrr or ggggg! There are certain things in a marriage that should be discussed. There are way more other things in a marriage that one does without discussion. The better the relationship and the more one knows the other , the more one is free to do a lot of things without HAVING to STOP and beg and moan for the yes nod. The more they want each others company the freer they are to express their gratitude for each other to each other. How would any of you feel if your spouse woke you up for permission to go to the bathroom?, fix a meal, buy a gift and so on? If we are to have this loving relationship here on earth with a human how much more should we have a loving relationship with God. At this point, I just canít believe that God wants us to spend our time begging for permission to do the obvious, natural, things that he freely gave us! Yes, I believe that ìChristians tend to have low self esteemî. Of course some do, theyíve been taught to grovel and crawl in some sort of ìChristian Humilityî that turns people totally away from Christ! People do have the God given right and ability to hold their head up. If you donít care about yourself, just how in Godís green earth are you going to care about others?!? I left that church deeply hurt and tossed the whole religion thing for a few years. AND I donít blame myself. Allenette, I really donít think this web site fits into the same ballpark as that church I got messed up in. Each person has to deal with God on their own level of faith. Iím sure someone will remind me of the story of Peter taking a bath after taking his eyes off Jesus. I donít think that applies to the everyday things that God has given us a mind to choose from. I think we should be thanking him for more things than begging for permission. Maybe even smell some Postum! Oooppps, I think I got wound up. Sooooo, Jude, am I gunna get it for this one? Maybe to independant........Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Hi guys, I've been really busy so I haven't posted lately. This site is addicting! I check-in everyday but can't seem to find time to post when I want. After Maryann and Allenette's messages, I just have to say a few things. First, I am so sorry for what you gals have been through with other churches. Maryann, the church you were at doesn't sound Christian at all. In fact it sounds cultic to me. I'm glad you got out. I believe that all life is precious to God. He created us and wanted to give us life before we were even born. He also gave us brains. I don't think any of us at this site traded in our intellect for a Christian church membership. It does seem like we praise God all the time at this site. I think it's because we're so thankful to God for so many things, especially salvation in Jesus alone. We've escaped adventism and found our assurance and hope in the cross of Christ. But everyone at this site seems to be very intelligent from what I've observed (I could be off!). Allenette, you make some good points. Personally I don't consult God on my purchases at the grocery store. But when chosing a school for my child I can ask for God's help. I don't just sit in a corner and pray for days. God's given me many resources to check out (books, personal references, etc.) I have enough sense to investigate all that I can about each potential school. I also know enough about my child to know what would suit their needs. From all this info. I make a decision based on my God given ability. Do I get some credit, sure. But I do give God credit for giving me a brain to use and resources to pursue things of this nature. I understand where you're coming from. Before I was a Christian I thought they all sounded wacko! (sp?) I think some still sound that way. Prior to my conversion I did study and research other religions and cults. I've always been interested in these things. I didn't jump mindlessly into Christianity. There are many wonderful books that prove the evidence for Christianity ("The Case For Christ" by Lee Stroble is a good one!). You see, I believe Christ lead me to Him. He has ordained all my days. He "clothes the lilies of the field" so I know He cares about EVERYTHING in my life. But I've come to see that our intellect is an important thing. We are called to renew our minds. Our pursuit of the things of God can actually be a form of worship. Many people relate to God on this level more than any other (I'm reading a fantastic book on the 9 distinct spiritual temperaments, it describes the different ways that people relate to God in worship, it's called "Sacred Pathways" by Gary Thomas. I got it from www.christianbook.com). Anyway, I've babbled on long enough. I'm not even sure I made a valid point. But my heart really went out to you two today. I feel so bad for what adventism and other abusive churches have done to you. I think you had some great observations but I think those of us who are praising God on this website just have a tremendous love for the Lord. I don't think we've been like dumb sheep and walked over the cliff into a mindless belief system. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer so beautifully put it in the "Cost of Discipleship", "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die." We die to self but what we gain surpasses all worldly understanding. All of my days, hours and breaths are His. Wisdom and knowledge are gifts. As a believer it's my responsibility to daily renew my mind as well as my heart and soul. I hoped this helped a little. God bless you both! Love in Christ, Susan | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
What do y'all think of this statement: "It's hard to get people out of Adventism, but it's much much harder to get Adventism out of people." Not much? Think again. Think of this statement: "We don't even know if God EATS, never mind WHAT!" Now, I'm meaning no offense, Allenette, for I know you were only kidding. And -- I don't know why, except maybe that we're both PKs -- but I don't know anybody on this website I like any better than I like you, and I'm NOT kidding. That said, let's press on: You see, very few card-carrying Adventists really and truly believe deep down that Jesus Christ is really and truly God. And this statement about what God does or doesn't eat -- irrespective of whose mouth it comes out of -- is just one more case in point. So we don't know whether God eats or not, huh? And even if we did, never mind what? Well, I'm here to invite you to check out the following scripture (Luke 24:41-43 NIV): "He [Jesus] asked them [the disciples], 'Do you have anything here to eat?' They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence." Here's the syllogism: Major premise: Jesus is God. Minor premise: Jesus eats fish. Conclusion: God eats fish. God? A carnivore? That's right! And, while we're on the subject, God drinks alcoholic beverages too. No! Yes! Here's proof (Luke 7:33-34 NIV): "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you [the Jews] say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man [the term Jesus most-often uses to refer to himself] came eating [bread] and drinking [wine], and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, friend of tax collectors [swindlers and traitors] and "sinners."'" You see, it's still so excruciatingly difficult to get it through our even post-Adventist heads that JESUS IS GOD. Period. No ifs, ands, buts, maybes, or perhapses. Hear John 1:1-5 NIV: "In the beginning was the Word [sorry, my fellow hard-headed post-Adventist friends, but the Bible is NOT the Word of God, but is rather only the witness to the Word of God], and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. He was with God in the beginning. Through him [God the Creator] all things were made; without him nothing was made that was made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." If you're praising God, you're praising Jesus, Jude |
