| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hey, no sorries needed! You guys need to air out your HIGH IQs! Excuse me while I go take a handful of Advil. Whewwwww, Allenette. I have just two suggestions. 1..Don't even try to "zip it" and number 2..Try re-arrainging the order to she/he/it. Enjoying the IQs.....Maryann | ||
| Allenette |
Jude: just a quickie and I gotta go to work--nope I wasnt blowing off the Dr. Davies stuff, I'm still absorbing it...note how close the posts were coming in fast and furious last night :-) But real life hits me about 8:30 every morning and I gotta go help make our living. I run a music store. Maybe more tonight if my wiring's still firing ggg | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bruce, I want to thank you for bringing me to my senses. I've got no excuses to offer. And, yes, I agree with you "that our own free will always leads to sin." Absolutely. That's always been a key issue, from Eve listening to the serpent and eating some of the forbidden fruit, from Adam trying to "protect" her from God (isn't that a hoot?) by eating some too, from the construction of the Tower of Babel ... on and on without end ... all the way down to Jude the Obscure trying to "fight the good fight" all on his own. As if God needed me! Thanks again for helping me see the light again after walking for a spell in darkness. Allanette, "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Bless you both, Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Jude No it is me that wants to thank you. This is somthing that I truly fight with, and I am glad that I see other fight with it too. I remember the first time I really found out that I have nothing to do with my salvation, I was very upset. I would like to believe that I should at least have somthing to do with it. (By the way a Morman friend of mine told me that it nauseated and sickens him to here from me that salvation has nothing to do with your deeds. He told me that a true and just God would want people to prove themselves.) I then Learned later on that with my new found open eyes and ears that I could not open other people ears or eyes to let them see or hear. This did not go over very well either. I remember saying to God well then what is the purpose of Me. Just think of it, I am only a little speck in the cosmos of time and space. I am only one small face in the sea of humanilty. I am a small insignificant, unimportant, trivial, speck that If I were God I would not even bother about sombody like me if I had the power and creativity and knowledge of God. Yet my God has died for me. He has made me his son forever. He has made me His Bride. He has made me a new creation. I may not understand this, In some ways it does make me mad, but I know I can trust in him because in and of myself I was going nowhere. I see it this way, God gave me my sovereignty, I know I will screw it up so I give it back to Him...... God gave me salvation. If it depended on me keeping it, I would not be saved!!!!!! To him be the Glory forever Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Lynn W |
With my probably low IQ (never been tested), I'd like to toss in a couple of verses: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Matt 10:29 I'm no philosopher, but it seems to me that belief in these statements reflects just the opposite of infantillism and self-pride. To know that God is in control and not me, puts me in the back seat where I can let Him do the driving. | ||
| Allenette |
When, in the course of discussion, I see the tide turning towards dogma (safe, comforting feelings which become repulsive and discomfortingingly familiar to formers since it points toward something they are trying to let go of...) I had hoped that instead of repeating Bible, there could actually be a discussion of logic vs. faith. It aint happening and probably wont since Bruce apparently helped Jude 'snap out of his non-scriptural musings. :-) STILL MEANT FRIENDLY!!! I guess I'm outa here...its not my raison d'entre to make anyone think things they dont want to . Ta Ta y'all... | ||
| Plain Patti |
Dear Allenette, I have been out of town, so I am kinda slow in coming in on this conversation. There are many who will probably figuratively tar and feather me for this, but, darling, I think you and I are on a very similar wavelength about a lots of things. Perhaps it is the PK syndrome. You wrote: How does one tell that to anyone on the, was it, Korean flight that, as they say in the Air Force, "screwed in" a month or so ago? Does God see those people in their last terrifying moments and give his cosmic ok? Patti: How can I possibly question you on this reasong when I have asked myself the same question many, many times? After a major natural disaster, the reporters rush in and interview the survivors. They are invariably grateful to God for protecting them. What about the victims? Did God merely abandon them? Allenette: As an ordained SDA pastor daringly reminded me last year, in the OT, God was given the glory/blame for everything that happened, good or bad, and as things progressed into the NT, there He/She/It only gets credit for the good stuff. Quite a progression, eh? Patti: I think that is mainly our interpretation. I think a lot of Christians see Jesus Christ as an effeminate, mealy-mouthed, hippie guru that went around proclaiming "Peace and Love." Ellen is the one that paints this image for SDAs with what she wrote about Christ giving even His most scathing rebukes with "tears in His voice." Poppycock. I do not hear any tears in: "You snakes! You offspring of Satan! You fetid and rotting corpse chambers!" I am not sure when American Christianity passed from hellfire and brimstone to this caricature of Jesus Christ as a benign, benevolent, eccentric uncle, but I think it is as far from the truth as is the hellfire and brimstone picture of the 19th century. At any rate, Jesus has some cold and harsh sayings that sometimes people choose to overlook: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." "I have come to turn brother against brother..." "You must forsake father and mother to follow me.." Also, I think people tend to get hung up on the specific incidents in the OT and they forget: 1. The OT is told through the eyes of the Hebrew people. It necessarily has a bias toward their perspective. 2. The overall moral of the OT is: A. the total incompetence and inability of God's chosen people to reconcile themselves to God, to restore themselves to Adam's original standing of direct fellowship with God, and B. Deliverance is always God's work and it is a work that saves the community in toto. In the OT the individual is clearly not as important as the community. God's promises are to the community; just as the Israelites were delivered corporately, so we are saved corporately. Christians cannot handle this. They are continually personalizing the promises made to "the seed of Abraham," yet Paul makes it clear that "the seed of Abraham" is one Person only: Jesus Christ. We are only saved as we are part of the "church," the "body of Christ," and there is only one way that we can attain this standing--by believing in His great saving act. I digressed a bit. Please forgive. I do not disagree with what you are saying. But I do not believe that the teachings and attitude of the Christendom, from which you have drawn you conclusions, are reflective of what is actually in the OT and NT. Allenette: I guess if I have any comments to add, I would mention that a college professor threw this out to my hubby's class last year: "Who do you think makes sure you wake up and get to class on time? (and THIS was at Tennessee State University, a public black college--we're white, if it matters) Mitch said, "I do". Wrong answer...no test :-) The prof wanted his students to say "God"....my point: personally I think us humans tend to overestimate our importance in the universe (consider the myths about "the whole universe watching us"....sheesh, a therapist would STILL have a field day with that attitude!) Patti: I am shouting "Amen" at the top of my lungs! Can you hear me? That is a nasty, horrible, arrogant, ego-centric, self-elevating, and God-debasing attitude. I quote from Job: Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Read the rest of Job to find out just how insignificant and ignorant we individuals are. Allenette: But...it seems to be supported with a Bible verse quoted here and there. Patti: There are so many things that could be argued from a verse here and there in the Bible. In fact, that is the only way how most of the SDA TRUTHS can be proven! Allenette: Might I suggest that we belittle the concept of God by suggesting that God micromanages the universe or more specifically, this planet, by suggesting that "He literally cares about everything that happens in our lives." Patti: We not only belittle God, we inflate our own worth. You know, we hear constantly that Jesus would have died for just a single sinner, but I do not believe that is supported by Scripture. "God so loved the world." (I know, some will use the story of the one lost sheep, but there are those who will say that this refers to our one lost planet. Besides this, the NT speaks of salvation as a corporate act--we are saved as a part of the church and the body of Christ.) I find it sad that many Christians are not "content" that Jesus Christ "merely" saves us eternally; they look for something "bigger" and "greater" to happen inside of the believer himself. Not only that, they look down upon those (generally quite honest) people who claim that the saving work of Christ--His vicarious life and death for His church--alone is enough proof of God's regard for each individual. Is that why high school football teams PRAY before the game starts? Do we really think God gives a hoot who wins the local football game???? Come on! Amen, again. Don't turn that brain off, friend. God never intended for us to check our brains at the church door. When we are children we fancy that our parents control every minute thing that happens, which to a certain extent they do, but as a mature adult, we KNOW that WE become responsible for most of what happens to us--i.e. our parents do NOT interfere with our decisions...why do mentally healthy adults know this? Because we realize that we have very little control over our "universe", and as we become adults we resign ourselves to that fact. We may worry about our children of course, but we cannot keep them ultimately safe from harm....IMO, this cuts to the core of human experience: how do we reconcile what we cant control with how we deal with the unfortunate? A very ancient dilemma which finally was dealt with, with reassuring mythologies which took on lives of their own as they were passed down from generation to generation. This is scary! Again, I agree with you totally! :) I have tunnel vision about salvation--if I believe that the work of Jesus Christ was totally sufficient for my salvation--no if's, and's, or but's--then I am content. I can live as a feeble, finite, near-sighted, and ignorant human being, trusting in God that no matter what happens in my life--by accident or by design--I can accept it, not because I believe that God intervenes actively in my life, but that I know the eventual outcome. I don't really guess there is much point in continuing this here tho. Hey, you have an avid listener, here! I have expressed these thoughts exactly many times. The Lord helped my Grandma thread her needles and find her glasses (yet, in spite of this, she was the most fearful person I have ever known.) I always wondered why He wouldn't help me--I had to do that kind of stuff for myself. Allenette, the sand in the lowly oyster :-) Yeah, but you know what the end product of the oyster's irritation is... :) You know, I have heard that God has a special place in His heart for honest doubters... :) I only hope I made as much sense as you did... God bless, Allenette, Patti | ||
| Colleentinker |
I'm convinced that we cannot argue faith vs. rational thought. The two are not opposites nor mutually exclusive. They are not two ends of a continuum. They are parallell and can coexist. As a matter of fact, I believe that faith improves our rationality. A great IQ is a wonderful thing, but it's not the best thing. I had a student once who was expelled because he revealed that he'd made plans to blow up the school. Brilliant kid, almost without peer at the school. No one doubted that he very likely did have carefully thought-out and workable plans to do what he threatened. True faith improves one's picture of reality; it takes one's self out of the center of the picture and puts Omniscienceóa truly high IQóat the core. From a global perspective I see God's omnisicience as including the ability to see all timeópast, present, futureóequally because He lives outside of our dimensions. That doesn't change anything about the way he made us or the fact of our wills. But it does make him greater than human. We struggle so hard to understand God from an anthropomorphic perspective. But how can we expect our Creator to be comprehensible to us? Scientists know that our three-dimensional world operates inside something called space-time. We can infer space-time and see its effects, but we can't actually observe it because we're locked into three dimensions. How can we possibly condense the mind and will of God into something explainable? He's outside all the dimensions we can imagine. As my elder son said one evening four years ago, "I believe that if we could identify the dimensions beyond us, some of the highest ones would be How? and Why? but the ultimate dimension would be Love. Of course! God is Love. If we had the appropriate instruments, we could probably measure it as a property of physics. But Love created; Love heals; Love redeems; Love is responsible for allowing evil and for executing its ultimate end; Love creates new hearts of flesh where there is stone; Love is the ultimate dimension. The unexplainable tragedies cannot be reconciled with Love unless God (Love) is the ultimate value in the universe. As long as we perceive humanity and the sacredness of our own lives as the ultimate value in the universe, senseless tragedies are just that. If God is the ultimate value, there is meaning beyond the obvious. God is sovereign; God is gracious; God wastes nothing, and God redeems everything we submit to him. Each of our lives is destined to be tragic. Everyone born inherits tragedy, but God (Love) redeems our tragedy and creates a new reality in us. (Another paradox.) He creates new lifeólife that cannot die; life that no disease or accident can erase. Of course, none of this makes sense unless one knows God. And none of us can know God unless we decide to take the risk and experiment. We can ask God to reveal himself. We can ask him to grant us the grace to suspend our doubt long enough to give Him a chance to reveal himself to us. Then it's up to him. Paul explains these paradoxes best when he says in I Corinthians 1:20-21, 25: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." Praising God for paradox, Colleen | ||
| Cas |
Hello to All, Read Romans 1:19,20 "What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse." Yes, just look at this universe, this world, and the beauty in it. There is no doubt in my mind that we did not come from a big bang. The human body is a work of art, creativity beyond our imagination. And like Colleen said we are born into tragedy, but with Jesus there is a way out and a hope for the future. When I wonder why it is taking Jesus so long to return to this world and end this suffering, 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." So it seems he is not willing that one of these little ones should perish, but will wait for all who will BELIEVE and come unto him. It is beyond me, that the Lord says to me, and all who will believe, Come unto me and receive eternal life, Come unto me and receive what I have prepared for you! God Bless us All, and my prayers go out for all the FAFers, and those touched by this website. | ||
| Whodat? |
My two cents concerning free will and sin: If exercising our freewill "always results is sin", then salvation is a joke because it takes our freewill to be saved, which would then be a sin. Sorry, guys, but last time I read the Bible, salvation was a free gift and required our choice to receive it and our willingness to grow into it. Why don't you get off of the topic of what you think that you know about confession and freewill and get in to a discussion on what sanctification is all about because that is where you will end up if you quit running in circles. Cas and Colleen, good observations. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Cas, I love the text you quoted, Romans 1:19,20: "What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse." To me this text means that, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12 NIV (Peter speaking before the Jewish highest council, the Sanhedren). In other words, we are not saved by drawing conclusions from nature or creation -- wonderful though that is -- but only by the God of nature, the Word, the Christ. Nature's job is to render us "without excuse." This is not salvation. This is condemnation. Nature's job is exactly the same as that of the Old Testament law, as per Romans 3:19,20 NIV: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we beocme conscious of sin." So Paul in Romans 1-3 draws a striking parallel between nature and the law. Both do the same thing: render us excuse-less and silenced before God. People who think they can be saved by observing nature are as deluded and legalistic as people who think they can be saved by observing the law. There is no distinction whatsoever to be made. "What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews and SDAs who keep the law to obtain salvation] any better [than the Gentiles who think to find peace with God through nature]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews [who think to find salvation through the Torah law] and Gentiles [who think to find it through the laws of nature] alike are all under sin. As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one.'" Romans 3:9,10 NIV. I think it is wrong, dangerous, and legalistic to argue that since nature "proves" the existence of God (argument from design), we can therefore be saved without Christ. Do you agree? Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Whodat --get in to a discussion on what sanctification is all about----- I COR 6:11 11 And such were some of you. But you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and BY THE SPIRIT of our God. I agree Whodat. I WAS SACTIFIED by the Spirit November 1997. Heb 10:14 14 For by one offering He has perfected FOREEVER those who are being sanctified. So when Jesus said be ye therefore perfect as your father in Heaven is, I can say I am through His Son. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Whodat, Welcome to the discussion. No, saying, as Bruce did, "that our own free will always leads to sin" does not make salvation a joke. For the simple reason that salvation is not something we can just accept of our own free will. We first have to hear the gospel and be convicted by the Holy Spirit. Then, when we accept salvation we are not just acting out of our own free will, but we are acting in concert with the will of the Holy Spirit. So our will is no longer ours but God's. Bruce is utterly correct, as far as I can tell, in asserting that acting on our own free will always leads to sin. The key is in the term "our own," which term your criticism omitted, thus unfairly twisting Bruce's meaning. For the words "on our own" always means "without God," wouldn't you agree? We cannot accept salvation without the prompting of the Holy Spirit acting on our hearts. Remember, Paul says, "I know that nothing good lives in me." Romans 7:18 NIV. Our free will must always act in concert with the free will of the Holy Spirit. Else we're plunged right back into legalism -- trying to work our way into salvation by "our own free will" acting alone without Christ. As far as the question of sanctification is concerned, I also agree completely with Bruce. Ellen G. White said, "Sanctification is the work of a lifetime." But the trouble with that statement is that it can be taken two ways: The first way: We have to work for a lifetime before we can reach sanctification. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Yet that's the way 99.9% of all SDAs have taken it, because that's the way she intended it. The second way: We are saved instantly, sanctified instantly, and made perfect instantly. Then, from that point on our Christian life is a matter of the pilgrimage of the saved, sanctified and perfect. For it is not "of our own free will" that we are so engaged, but rather of Christ's free will acting in concert with ours. But his will must ALWAYS take the lead, for, as a good friend of mine in Christ has put it, "our own free will always leads to sin." Hope this helps us reach a more mutual understanding. Blessings on your head, Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
I completely agree with Bruce and Jude. First, Jude, you are right about nature leaving us "without excuse". That's a condemnation, not a salvation statement. We can only receive salvation through Jesus Christ. Not even the Bible gives us eternal life. Jesus said in John 5:39, "You diligently study the Scritpures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." He was reprimanding the Jews for thinking they could obtain eternal life by knowing the Bible. Not so; only by knowing the Lord to whom the Bible points could they find eternal life. Anything less than personally knowing Jesus is our own works. Which brings me to "free will". I agree, Bruce and Jude; salvation does not depend upon our own free will. Salvation is the result of being called by God and convicted by the Holy Spirit. When we decide to accept him, our will is, as Jude explained, working in concert with the Holy Spirit. If our salvation were dependent upon our own free will, we would be saved by ourselves. We would only have to look within to find the answers and then act upon them. Yes, we have free will; we can choose not to accept the Holy Spirit's conviction and continue to live in the flesh. Or we can decide to accept the Holy Spirit's wooing and begin living intimately with the Holy Spirit. Praising God for His Sovereignty, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Everyone, Iím in a rather tumultuous state of mind an will try convey my feeling with the help of a dream I had last night. This is not the dream yet. When I was 12 I met what was to be my best friend for many years. It was a mostly white Paint colt who had a white filly in the pasture with him. They were just a few days old. As time went by we became great buds. Then, sadly I moved about 30 miles away and only saw them on Sabbath when we ìdidî church at our friends home. Then they were gone. I figured they were weaned and went to new homes. Some months later when these horses should have been about 16+ months old and 800 lbs each, I made a grizzly discovery. These poor things were put on a wood lot that went over a hill and to a 60+ acre pasture only someone had put a fence up that would not allow them to go the grass and they nearly starved to death! To make a long story short, these horses were mere shadows of what they should have been. I engineered the situation so as to pay $10 and become their owner. A couple guys hauled them to my house by picking them up physically and putting them in a trailer. They weighed all of 200 lbs each and collapsed on each other in the trailer. The white one died but my friend ìThunderî made it. He remained a stallion all of his life. He made it to about 14.1 hands (57in.) and 950 lbs. We were truly best friends. We did just about everything together from sleeping under the stars in the summer to skidding logs in to cut and split for firewood and swimming to bringing him in my room (much to Momís giant disapproval). After I left home and was married, he taught me all about cows (he was a natural) and we worked 200 head on an 1800 ranch (alone) and later a 40 acre alfalfa/cow operation. Then he was just a pleasure horse. I was working for a crazy employer that wanted me to go partners with him in a shady horse business and I refused. He burned me out of house and home and as if that wasnít enough he came back and poisoned my best friend. That was more traumatic than the burning of my home especially since he didnít die right away and I had to make the decision to put him to sleep. 18 years was a long time to know him then lose him that way. This may appear off the subject but I experienced a most wonderful weekend meeting a few Former Adventist, going to church and just getting to know them. Simply beyond words to describe sitting in a church with like minded people that understand each other and where each other came from. After church, visiting was awesome beyond words. Close, would be to have you imagine being in a foreign country for 25 years and never hearing an English word. One day you look up and you see several English speaking people. What would you do? How would you feel? How would you feel when those English speaking people left you? Try a hollow gourd! When I HAD to leave, it almost broke my heart. A life time of waiting for this kind of fellowship only to be gone in hours. Iím sure this meeting will be repeated occasionally in the future, but do you have a concept of the gut wrenching experience it was to leave yesterday? Now to the dream. It was wonderful, I was riding the mountains again on Thunder. (I usually didnít use a saddle). I could feel the power of him and his silky soft warm coat. One of his ears would turn back to listen to me talk to him and he would do his silly little sissy bucks or side steps at the smallest piece of paper or a can. I could hear him snort at a bobcat or coyote and feel his muscles tighten getting ready to explode. We were as one and I very seldom got my head driven into the ground because I knew what he was thinking and when he was going to jump and which way. An interesting thing about Thunder was that except for about 3 other people, he would drive ANY ones head in the ground that tried to ride him! Right at the height of this amazingly vivid and real dream of me and my ìBudî some people came out of the woods and grabbed him and tried to take him. I fought for him and ran my self silly and got him back only to have more people come out to grab him from me. This went on a few more times till I could no longer go on and I watched till I couldn't see him. They were not interested in getting me, just taking what was important to me. Whatís the point? Why the story? What does it mean? Thunder has been gone for 12 years. ( I find it odd to remember a dream in the detail that I did here.) I have been wanting/needing Christians to fellowship with and when I found them and had to leave them so soon, I, in my sleep, went to another time and place of pain and having my heart ripped out. Why havenít I had the fellowship that I have craved all these years. As a SDA, you have your circle of friends. When you leave, the circle is broken. When you try to get into another circle, there is no room for you. Your heart is ripped from you. Is that Christianity? We really DO need to get armed with the Word of God and get this message out to other hurting people. This has a bright spot. I GOT TO RIDE MY HORSE AGAIN!!! Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I'd like to add a corollary to Bruce's statement, "Our own free will always leads to sin." Jude's corollary: "Our will is never free till it belongs to God." 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NIV: "But their [the OT Israelites'] minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil [that covered the fading glory on Moses' face] remains when the when the old covenant [the law complete with the Fourth Commandment] is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses [the law] is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS FREEDOM. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." This brings us to another one of those paradoxes that Colleen loves so much: Before the Holy Spirit finds us, we think we're free, but we're not. When we encounter Christ we fear that we're going to have to surrender our free will, but to our everlasting delight we find the only true freedom we've ever known and will ever know. There are many scriptures that announce this freedom in Christ that the gospel produces. I will just quote my favorite, Luke 4:17-21 NIV: "The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him [Jesus]. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: "'The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the good news to the poor. He has sent me to PROCLAIM FREEDOM FOR THE PRISONERS and recovery of sight for the blind, to RELEASE THE OPPRESSED, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.' "Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, 'Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.'" I hope no one misses the point here and thinks that the liberty Christ proclaimed twenty centuries ago was limited to literal slaves, such as slaves in the United States before the Civil War. No doubt, Christ's proclamation does include physical freedom from physical slavery. And I have no doubt but that President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was driven by Christ's synagogue proclamation. But more fundamentally, Christ sets us at liberty from our own faux sense of free will outside of God's will. For what is physical liberty without liberty of the soul and true free will which is found only in the Holy Spirit. "Our will is never free till it belongs to God." "I thank thee, O my Father, for sending us your Son." Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann, Thanks, it was wonderful having you at the FAF meetings. Your dream came from God. Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Cas, Special blessings to you. I want to try my hand at answering your wondering (do you mean puzzlement?) as to "why it is taking Jesus so long to return to this world and end this suffering, 2 Peter 3:9 says 'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.' "So it seems he is not willing that one of these little ones should perish, but will wait for all who will BELIEVE and come unto him. "It is beyond me, that the Lord says to me, and all who will believe, Come unto me and receive eternal life, Come unto me and receive what I have prepared for you!" I'm still not absolutely clear on what you're getting at here. If I'm off track, then maybe you could explain a bit more. But here's my "two cents worth" (as we seem to like to say around here). I perceive your question to be, If the Lord isn't "slack concerning His promise," then why hasn't he come back to relieve all the suffering here? My answer is the same as the one I proposed to the Seventh-day Adventists when I was still trying to "reform from within." It is the answer that was explicitly rejected in print -- as heresy and left-wing Satanic delusion, irredeemable error and heinous sin -- by the SDA "right wing," which was then and remains today in entrenched power. Perhaps you will not find my answer satisfying, but for what it's worth, here it is: JESUS HAS ALREADY COME IN YOUR HEART, and so Peter is not mistaken when he asserts that the Lord is not "slack concerning his promise." Notice that the text you quoted, 2 Peter 3:9 KJV, says nothing about Christ coming to end suffering. Peter's point, and the real answer to your question is within the context of the very text that causes your puzzlement. Here's the fuller quote of 2 Peter 3:8,9 NIV: "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Even if you take a more literal tack than I think Peter intended, the text still works. For only 2000 years have passed, and that would only equal two days in the Lord's timetable. But that kind of reasoning is for "babes in Christ." And, indeed, Peter allows for and honors this kind of reasoning: 1 Peter 2:2 NIV: "Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk [and make no mistake, Peter's not talking here about formula or bottle-feeding!], so that by it you may grow up in your salvation." But as appropriate as God-the-Mother's breast-feeding is (see Isaiah 66:11,12) for neonates in Christ, the time comes to be weaned! Hear Hebrews 5:12-14 NIV: "Though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." And the "solid food" that Peter is trying to serve us is this: "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (Peter? A universalist? Sounds that way to me!) I realize that this does not, and cannot answer your question fully. But, whatever else God is -- love, holy, etc. -- he is also mysterious. And the mystery that God has revealed to us is, as Bruce has so magnificently shown us, Jesus Christ. And so more generally the "solid food" is faith, stronger and stronger faith, faith that God is good, is just, is trustworthy, is faithful, etc. And all of these attributes are summed up in the person of Jesus Christ. And more specifically the "solid food" is: We're already in the kingdom of heaven. There is only one kingdom of heaven, not two. It is the pre-harvest kingdom of heaven, to be sure, and so there is still suffering. For the wheat and the weeds must grow together in the kingdom of heaven until the harvest separates the wheat from the weeds, the sheep from the goats. But that's not all, for despite the suffering (our own and that of others), the kingdom of heaven is still a paradise! Luke 23:43 NIV: "Jesus answered him [thief on cross], 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'" When did the thief enter paradise? Read on. Luke 23:44-16 NIV: "It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' When he had said this, he breathed his last." This was the moment, some time between the sixth hour (noon) and the ninth hour (3:00 pm) -- at the exact moment that he believed in Jesus -- the thief entered paradise. And so the thief had to still be alive at that moment, for only the living can give their hearts to Jesus. The truth as it is in Jesus is this: The thief entered paradise, became a subject of the kingdom of heaven, became a branch of Christ's grape vine, became a sheep of the Good Shepherd, became a "living stone" in the house of which Christ is "the chief cornerstone, became a member of the mystical church (baptism or not), became a functioning cell in the body of Christ, became a cub of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, on and on for many metaphors. And what's so paradisical about the kingdom of heaven on earth here and now in which we are proud and priviliged to be full-fledged subjects serving Christ our King? It is love: Have you experienced the thrill of being unconditionally accepted in love by those who are acting in Christ's name? And returning that love by unconditionally accepting them in love? And not them only, but our neighbors and even our enemies? If you have known this spine-tingling thrill, then you have known the only paradise that can be experienced this side of the harvest. It beats anything the kingdom of darkness has to offer hands down. No comparison. It also compensates for the suffering. Maryann has only recently experienced it. And so let us take this solid food and give thanks. Grace and peace always, Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
I love your phrase, "It also compensates for the suffering," Jude. That is absolutely the truth. We enjoyed having you here last weekend, Maryann! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, Been catching up on my ìrequired readingî that I missed over the weekend and have been mulling over some vibs. Hang on to your hats, I just re-read this myself and uhhh? I don't know what you are going to think of this one! Paul in 1 Cor. 9:22 makes a good point. ìTo the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save someî. ( Obviously, Paul didnít save them, rather by EXAMPLE and the preaching of the gospel he introduced them to the saving gospel). Iím not saying that some are weak and some are strong. Iím saying that some have walked further with Jesus than others. This is not a ìtimeî thing either. One that has been a Christian for 70 years may still be near the bottom of a shaley mountain clawing on all fours to make traction and be all scarred, bleeding and bruised hollering for Jesus to hold him but unwilling to take his hands off the shale. This poor fella is quoting Bible, claiming promises and praising God constantly, yet refuses to give up the sharp rocks for a strong hand. A 20 year old that has known Jesus for 1 year may be near the top with his hand securely held by Jesus so that every time his feet slip he still is held securely. He may have a couple bruised and bleeding knees when he slips but guess what? Jesus has a free hand to wipe them up a bit. This young fella may only know John 3:16 and Eph: 2:8,9 and canít claim a million promises, but, is he ever trusting in the security of Jesusí hand! Now, down at the bottom of this mountain is a place with a few guys watching this 70 year old wanna be mountain climber. They hear him doing Bible and praising God along with many prayers. They laugh and make fun among them selves. They holler at the climber and tell him how stupid they think this climbing operation is. They tell him heís been lied to if he believes heíll ever make it any where. This climber now praises God for the chance to witness to these guys and with a bruised and bloody body proceeds to explain how wonderful God is, only pausing once in a while to spit out a busted tooth. Sooooo, just what do you think these guys are going to think of him and his God. They are going to tell him something like, ìyour full of so much cow stuff that your breath stinks!î The only example of Christianity these guys have seen is this poor fella spinning his wheels! THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE BIBLE! It makes them want to puke. They canít see the guy so securely in the grasp of Jesus way up on the mountain an if they did, they would write him off as a fluke. Somewhere, somehow, someone has to get the eyes of the guys off the bruised and bleeding climber to the pair way up the mountain. It needs to be done at the level that the guys can digest it and that most likely is NOT going to be Bible, they hate God or could give a flying rip about Him and the Bible. The god they have been observing stinks. We need to set our Bibles down and put our arms around them and if they need to have a discussion on the logics of the whole mountain experience, lets logic them into the kingdom of heaven with a pinch of Bible in the same way that Paul said he became all thing to all men so that by ALL POSSIBLE MEANS he might save some!? Many formers have seen MANY climbers clawing and finally looked up and saw Jesus. Some formers canít see up there. They just canít get past the legalistic clawing they were born into. It seems to me that George for one, would like to air out his logic and have it discussed at the level he is comfortable with. Allenette, for another, has a half claim to agnosticism and seems to want to air that out too. I canít say that I know how to do that, but surely someone here can. I run across guys at work that would smack a preacher but will engage in a logical conversation with religious tones. That might be the seed that some one else can water down the pike? Iíve also seen the same guys horribly curse God when someone tries the Bible approach. The same guys, when cooled down, will almost always admit to having a preacher/teacher in the family that was clawing his bloody way up the shaley mountain and dragging them with them! Suppose I should cut this off before I dig myself in a hole. I really believe this though. Still having trouble fully trusting...Maryann |
