| Author |
Message |
Richard, Jr.
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 6:43 am: |     |
My fellow Americans, Thanks so much for the good discussion on "once saved,always saved." Is there a difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied? Are we saved by the work of Christ on the cross and then the Holy Spirit applies it when He makes contact with us? Is there such a thing as instrumental means of grace? If I am dying of thirst and I am offered water to drink, I am saved by the water not my reaching for the water, although I have to reach for the water to be saved. Now I am confused! Richard Jr. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 11:06 pm: | |
Hi, Richard! We do have the freedom not to avail ourselves of salvation. Jesus clearly talked about the sheepóthe ones that truly gave Him food and drink and visited Him in prison and comforted Him when He was sick, and the goatsóthe ones who did not do those things for Him. He also said the goats would be placed on His left hand and sent to the fire "prepared for the devil and his angels". The sheep would enter eternal life.
Jesus saved humanity, but we individual humans have to choose firmly to be loyal to Him. Our "work" is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus clearly said that the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Spiritóour seal of belonging to Christ.
When we are born again our dead souls are brought to life, and we are connected to God by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That miracle makes us part of the "living". Remember when Jesus asked a man to follow him, and he said, "Let me go and bury my father first"? Jesus replied, "Let the dead bury the dead." Those were the spiritually dead. In the Bible, the living are the saved, and the dead are the lost.
For me, thinking about salvation in terms of being born into life from a condition of death really helps me to visualize salvation. When Jesus gives me a living soul (which Adam and Eve had at their creation and which Jesus, as God, was born with), I am alive spiritually. My body isn't redeemed yetóthat's the part that waits for the resurrectionóbut I am eternally God's at that point. I still have to deal with my sinful flesh, but the indwelling Holy Spirit makes that part of his job. My spirit is now alive with him forever.
Our "reaching for the water" is our decision to believe in Christ and to submit ourselves to him. The Holy Spirit seals us to the heart of God and gives us the mind of Christ and the power of Jesus to become part of his body on earth.
By the way, do you remember that (to me) enigmatic passage in Matthew where Jesus says, Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth with be loosed in heaven? Just this week it occurred to me what he probably meant by that. When we are born again and connected to God by the Holy Spirit, at that point the kingdom of heaven is actually in us. We are connected to eternity. As a Christ-follower I take my direction from the Holy Spirit. His will is done on earth through me. If I pray for mine or someone else's spiritual protection, insight, or healing, I am functioning by the Holy Spirit's power and promptings. The outcome is literally accomplished on earth and in heavenóon earth in time and in heaven in eternityóbecause I am connected to eternity, and the kingdom of heaven is within me. When we as Christ followers carry out the will of the Holy Spirit, God's will is being done through us, and that result is eternal at the moment it is done!
Still learning and pondering,
Colleen |
Richard, Jr.
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 6:25 am: | |
Hello Colleen, Thank you for your input on the subject of salvation. It helped me clarify alot of things about our relationship to God. I especially was helped by your interpretation of the passage in Matthew concerning the loosing and binding. I think you are onto something there. That was a new spin to me but it makes alot of sense. I like the sense of assurance it gives to us. |
George
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 8:36 am: | |
Patti,
I never know where to post things anymore so here goes anyway.
You asked me to comment on Heb. 10 that you and Jude were talking about. I am not sure that I got all of the conversation but it seems that you were talking about sins that we do intentionally etc.
If we are not worried about the things we do, we are worried about how we do them. What a good way for the devil to get at us. Big sins, little sins, conscious sins, unconscious sins, premeditated and spontaneous sins, which ones did He not die for. Notice I said which ones did He NOT die for.
Think about it, if you can find one sin that He didnít die for, our salvation is not perfect and we are in big trouble, and perhaps this is all just a big joke.
Go ahead, find me one single thing we can do that He didnít die for!!! Please do. Really.
Now, if it is not something that we do that keeps us out of heaven, then what is left. Thatís right, it is something that we do NOT do.
The only thing I can see that He didnít die for is unbelief . This He can not forgive if we continue in it. It is when we do not believe He died for everything that we could ever do, that we are lost.
No one can know if or when another is saved, that is between them and God.
ìBy their fruits ye shall know themî says to me that if we are really and truly saved we will not WANT to go around sinning all the time. If I always go around doing those things that are inconsistent with salvation, I would question whether I had been truly saved to begin with.
George |
Plain Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 8:44 am: | |
The only thing I can see that He didnít die for is unbelief . This He can not forgive if we continue in it. It is when we do not believe He died for everything that we could ever do, that we are lost.
George,
I agree wholeheartedly! If we are saved through faith alone, then the only way we can be lost is to not believe.
Of course, you do realize that those who have not yet seen that the work of Jesus Christ is totally sufficient for their salvation will accuse you of antinomianism, of "trampling the law of God underfoot." But why would we when we have seen the great price that Christ paid when He became sin for us? We will never attain perfection; all our righteousnesses will remain filthy rags, but we will try our best to show our love for God and man, but this has absolutely no effect on our salvation, positively or negatively.
Thanks for writing!
God bless!
Patti |
Lori
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 1:29 pm: | |
George,
You have mastered the basics of salvation beautifully!!! Always hold on to those principles, those concepts!!!
God wants us to be happy......and the only way we are happy is when we KNOW truth. When you KNOW truth, the falsehoods CAN NOT sway you!!!
We need to KNOW that we are saved!!!! Not just 'hope' we are saved. Hope in the Greek means we have confidence. Hope in our English vocabulary means something more akin to wishful thinking! I've often heard the story of two people that were given the question: "Are you saved, are you going to heaven?" the first answered rather uncertainly, " I hope so....." The second person answered with great confidence!!! "You're damn right I am, and where else would I be going?"
(And I can tell you with great confidence that the Adventist answer would be the first and their answer to the second persons question would be-- he was not going to heaven, he in fact, is going to hell !!)
The simple fact, of knowing, that no sin that you can 'do' is bigger than the grace of God brings you to that all important point of "loving God".
Because "all things work together for good for those who LOVE GOD" (not for those that God loves, but only for those who LOVE GOD!) Sadly, all my 30+ years as an Adventist never taught me how to love God. I learned how to obey his laws and how to wear the 'mask'. And I learned how to get lots of laughs when people asked me (as an adult), "why weren't you at church today?" I very honestly replied that I just didn't feel like "putting on the mask", "playing the game" and "wearing the smile" this morning. I just wasn't in the mood for pretending to be 'Mrs. Adventist' this week. Thanks for asking!!!
Isn't it great to be confident IN CHRIST!!
Lori |
Bruce H
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 9:00 pm: | |
George
When you believe that Jesus paid the price and you
realize that there is nothing that you yourself
can do for salvation, God gives you a DEPOSITE and
that is his Holy Spirit and the Spirit indwells in
you.
Know this is how it works. You are in a sence
possesed by God but God will not inflict on your
free choice if you say well today lord I am going
to do the work for you but I am going to do it my
way then you are on the throne of your heart and
God cannot work through you. However if you
surrender your your will for his and decide to do
his will then He will transform you He will
empower you He WILL MAKE YOU A Man of God and Man
that is strong and has no fear and I mean NO FEAR.
It boils down to free will do you run the throne
or does God. Is it his will or yours. He has
already givin you the victory do you want it.
You can know Gods will and his ways by the word of
God it is awasome.
Bruce Heinrich
B |
George
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 8:24 am: | |
Patti
You must have been wating for my post to have answered so soon!!
I was never sure that you could see what I saw that made me so happy, now I see that you do. AIN'T IT NICE.
Lori,
Nice to here from you again. After all, it is all your "fault" that I changed my view on religon, and am happy for the first time in my life. HOW CAN I EVER THANK YOU.
Bruce,
Thanks for all your help and encouragement along the way.
The best to all---George |
Jude the Obscure
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 2:39 pm: | |
George,
You posted awhile back that you hardly knew where to post anymore.
I have a suggestion: Why don't you start your own Discussion? To do it:
Click on TOPICS
Click on DISCUSSION
Go to the bottom of the page where there is a "slot" in which to type your Discussion title.
Type in your title there.
Go to the window just below it and post your Introduction. I usually use ALL CAPITAL LETTERS in the introductory post. Example: HI, I'M GEORGE, AND DO I EVER HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU!
Then post your questions below. And proceed as you normally do from there.
You could call your new Discussion anything you like. But I would suggest a title that best describes what YOU want to talk about most.
Then do like most Discussion-starters have done: Start with a question,YOUR question.
How about it? People will respond. Don't worry about that. I, for one, GUARANTEE that I will respond istantly and repeatedly.
"Ask and you shall be answered, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto thee."
Best,
Jude |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 9:23 pm: | |
GeorgeóI just have to say I'm delighted to read that you're actually experiencing peace and happiness. You are an example to me of a miracle of God! (Of course, I believe it was a miracle when each one of us found grace.)
When I think of the despair in your posts of three to four months ago and read you now, I rejoice!
My prayers for you continue.
Colleen |
Lori
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 6:38 am: | |
I'm in tears!!!! I just now read George's post.....and I'm so happy for you George!! The inner peace and happiness that you can have IN Christ is AMAZING!
The Holy Spirits work in, and through, me was the ONLY reason that I had any words that could reach you! .......a year ago, I could have offered you nothing but religious legalism, I had no grasp on Christianity......Isn't God amazing!!!!!!
It was not I, but Christ, who brought where you are!!!!
I can hardly wait to meet all in heaven!!!!
Lori |
George
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2000 - 6:44 am: | |
Lori,
Just got back and read your post. There is not much else to say other than I have a long way to go but it sure is nice. Thanks again.
George |
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