| Author |
Message |
Lydell
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 5:18 am: |     |
Wendy, I don't think Patti was discounting the second coming or its importance. But what she said is so true.
SDA's are programmed to look at everything of importance only beginning in the future. However, what Christ demonstrated to us was that His kingdom had already begun here and now. He had literally invaded satan's turf.
In the book of Mark we see where the Lord announced His blessing on Jesus at His baptism. Satan immediately attacked Jesus in the wilderness, and Jesus immediately went on the counter attack through the following miracles that are recorded there, beginning with His pronouncement in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye, and believe the gospel." And it hasn't stopped since then.
The time we are living in now is just the beginnings of what we will see. It's the first taste of the fullness of the kingdom that we will see later at His coming.
Yes Christ will come back. But that isn't our focus. Our focus is the time we spend with Him TODAY.
Actually, one of the major problems the SDA's have that is the beginning of all the screwed up theology is the extreme focus on endtime events. The supposed "understanding" of those is what is used as the basis for all other doctrine. "This verse must mean this because we "know" that EGW said that this was going to happen at the end." As a result, they are unable to really just let the scriptures say what they say.
So actually, the kingdom of God had begun even before Christ's work was completed. Luke 17:21.
Wendy, you can go back and read Revelation again without reading it through EGW and become familiar with the jist of what it says is going to happen. But there is no point in focusing on needing to understand it all now. It won't happen. We will understand it when it starts to unfold. The important thing is to learn what the kingdom of God is TODAY! |
Breezy
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 10:37 am: | |
Lydell,
I agree with you that we need to focus on Christ's kingdom as it exists today. But, I disagree when you say we must wait for events to begin unfolding. Most other evangelicals see that there is a massive unfolding of events RIGHT NOW!
If you will go to discovery.com/earthalert.htm you will see what I mean. The stuff that is revealing the birth pangs that precede Christ's second coming are not things that you hear in the news. They are too common now. Every single day there is a new earthquake. Every day there is a volcanic eruption, or a new pestilence or plague. Many times recently large bodies of water have been polluted and destroyed, some turning blood red from chemicals and other things.
Yes, we must focus on Christ's kingdom here on earth. But we musn't be caught sleeping when the bridegroom calls the bridal party either. Everything in balance is the key.
God Bless you Lydell!
Wendy |
Jtree
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 4:57 pm: | |
Right now we are in a COLD WAR discussion in a club of Yahoo. Here is the link to this club if any of you wish to join the discussions.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/endtimesandthelaw
Message 844 was directed to me. It reads as follows. I have yet to reply in public to the author of this message. I emailed him, and invited him to join us here. Here is his message to me:
"What do you think that the two commandments are that you follow? They are the embodiment of the
Ten Commandments which you ARE still bound to, my friend. The old covenent is not the ten commandments. And how do you see the Holy Spirit as being a restrainer of sin? People are bound
to fail, whether they are christian or not. I know a lot of folks that claimed to be filled by the Holy Spirit, but their lifestyles would suggest otherwise. I also know a lot of good christian people who have succumbed to the wiles of Satan. Without thought of punishment, who is going to be restrained? No one.
I have read many of your posts and from what I see you are going backwards. I am not trying to
attack you, but rather alert you. I've seen a couple of other people in other clubs that post as you do, but they are generally few and far between. There is an awakening going on with people who will be the true followers of God. They are those who keep his commandments. They are the remnant church.
Your way is to easy, my friend, as it follows a lot of what I call "relaxed christianity". You ignor the warnings of the Bible, even the very words of Christ himself. You instead resist him, turning his words into nill, yet happy to pick and choose verses that support this "relaxed" attitude. I will be happy to dicuss this further if you would like."
If a person named "Holy_Spirit_in_me" joins, welcome him.
Joshua |
Lydell
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 7:25 pm: | |
But Wendy, my point is that if we are living actively in the kingdom here and now, then there is no way we are going to be caught sleeping when the bridegroom comes. It's not a matter of focusing on speculation if this thing or that thing fits in with what a person thinks is their understanding of prophecy that will prepare them for His coming. Rather it is that they have actively been engaged in getting to recognize His voice all along.
No matter how deeply we study prophecy, our understanding of the events is not going to be clear cut. We are in for many surprises. It is prophecy. It is something that has not happened yet. (And, of course, there are some minor things going on!) But we have so very much that we can be learning about Him and about what it means to be a part of His kingdom! Our time is much more profitably spent in that study than in one that can only be speculation.
When the last events unfold, the issues are going to be very crystal clear. He's not a God who is going to let His children flounder around and accidently take the mark of the beast. No, we serve a loving Father who cares for His children. It will be very clear!
Most of us who leave the SDA's are a bit surprised when we look back and realize just how much time is spent in the SDA's in focusing on the fear of the last days events. You seldom hear anyone in the SDA's focus on the awesome stuff that we know will be happening. We will see a move of the Holy Spirit that is going to rival Pentecost. The Lord is going to do the most amazing things. And, in fact, is already doing some. Small glimpses of what will be. I'd rather spend my time learning about those and learning to recognize His voice. |
Breezy
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2000 - 8:27 pm: | |
Lydell,
*sigh* I know so many people are afraid of end-times and live in fear of them. I am not one of them. Everything that I run across that points to Christ's soon coming gets me so excited I can't sit still. I don't care what comes along, persecution or whatever. I know that no matter what happens Jesus will be at my side taking care of me all the way! So I think that as I have said before, there should be a balance. It's smart not to ignore either thing. When the disciples asked what would be the signs of His return, Jesus said that there would be earthquakes,famines,etc. and to watch and wait for those things because that generation would not pass till they saw Him return. Paraphrased obviously. I'm just listening and following what He said. Not Ellen White.
So don't worry, I do understand what you mean. Look for my e-mail on Out of Africa post if you'd like to discuss this more. I'll only be on once a week or two so I won't be around much.
I appreciate your comments much,
Wendy |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 1:27 pm: | |
Probably one of the most liberating aspects of my pilgrimage away from SDAism and toward heaven, with Christ, has been this difference where "end time" events are concerned. The statement above about "not being caught sleeping when the bridegroom returns" reminds me of those dark days in SDAism when I had no assurance of my own salvation and statements such as this would make me shake with fear that I'd be lost in the last days. It is no wonder we clung to things like EGW's writings and SDA Revelation seminars which were supposed to keep our eyes open to the second coming.
Now that I have assurance of my own salvation I no longer need the "lesser light" I clung to back then, instead I hold the "greater light", the true gospel of salvation by Grace and not works as revealed in the Bible, it is this light which shines from my lamp now as I excitedly (rather than fearfully) await the bridegroom's coming.
Wake the sleeping virgins and tell them to forget their "lesser light" and await the bridegrooms return with the "greater light" lifted high.
A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson |
Patti
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 7:56 am: | |
Amen, Bill!
I used to have nightmares about the second coming, would wake up in a cold sweat with my heart racing just before I found out if I had "made it" or not. Thank God that fear is gone!
One thing I have never understood about SDAs, even when I was one, is how they fight tooth and nail against the "Sunday laws." If, perchance, they are right and the Sunday laws have to be passed before Christ can come, then why are they struggling against them with all their money, literature, lobbying power, etc.? Should they not be out PROMOTING the second coming instead of trying to DELAY it? Sort of flies in the face of John's impassioned plea, "Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus," doesn't it?
And Lydell, you are very right. I do believe in the second coming. What I disbelieve is that we know everything that will happen to usher it in. Remember the wise men were the only ones who recognized the first coming; even the shepherds knew only because God revealed it to them. What makes us think that we know all there is to know about end time events? God will act as He will act. Our part is to TRUST in Him that He will keep His word and save us to the uttermost. It really doesn't matter if His coming is by secret rapture, by cataclysmic event, or any other prevalent theory. All we need to know is in Whom is our Salvation. God will do what He will; our duty as His creatures is to BELIEVE (trust, have faith) that He is faithful and will keep His promises to us. And all we need to do to "get ready" is to rest fully assured that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ is totally sufficient for our salvation. And to tell others. The main duty of the Holy Spirit is to testify of our accomplished salvation in Jesus. We testify of Jesus so that others can hear, and thus, believe. And they, in turn, tell others. Thus, we take the Gospel to the world.
We live in the Kingdom of Christ right now. He is our perfect salvation and the King of kings. We may be able to discern this with our sinful eyes, but we can know that when we see Him, when our faith becomes sight, we will be like Him. Why? Because He is promised. And we believe (trust, have faith, have confidence, have assurance) in His Word.
Grace and Peace,
Patti |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 9:06 am: | |
Yes Patti,
All down through history, from the time of the apostles, Christians have anxiously awaited the return of Christ, hoping it would happen in their lifetime. How strange that the group that believes themselves to be His one true remnant church would fear and attempt to delay (as if they could) His return. I say they try to delay it because as you say, they fight against "Sunday laws" (a fight against a straw man in my opinion) and they believe these laws will usher in His return.
I know SDAs who "ran for the hills", literally in 1993 when the Waco thing went down, "the time of trouble" began that year they thought. I know these people personally.
Anxiously Awaiting His Return,
Bill Thompson |
Sherry2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 10:37 am: | |
Know this song..."are you ready for Jesus to come? Are you faithful in all that you do? Have you fought a good fight? Have you stood for the right? Have others seen Jesus in you?"
I'll tell you something, when I realized I did not have to remain an SDA to have right standing with God, when I realized that not everything SDAism stood for was true, I lost a huge amount of fear of death (first time in my life!), and a hopefulness of Christ's return, and peace and surity in my salvation through Jesus Christ. God is so good!
Standing on and resting in the promises of God,Sherry |
Breezy
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 11:38 am: | |
I think the reason that SDA's fight against the Sunday laws is because EGW said that they should oppose them so as to try to spread the message to as many people as possible before Jesus comes. I personally don't see so much of the IJ stuff you guys see. I know that any SDA with common sense could realize that people saved right before Jesus comes won't have time to have perfection of character. They will be saved as all have been saved, immediately by Christ's grace. I think the point of character perfection is to never remain stagnant. Yes we are saved just as we are. But I sure don't want to remain this way. By the influence of the Holy Spirit in my life, I have a natural desire to grow to be more like Christ. This is what comes after salvation. Not the requirement for salvation. I think this is just not explained well enough to people. I think fewer Adventists would live in fear if they could just understand that simple truth.
God is Good!
All the time!
All the time!
God is Good!
Wendy |
Patti
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 12:56 pm: | |
Sherry wrote:
Know this song..."are you ready for Jesus to come? Are you faithful in all that you do? Have you fought a good fight? Have you stood for the right? Have others seen Jesus in you?"
Yes, and I detest it. Because the answer to all of the above (for anyone who is honest and who is looking at his/her own character) is "No."
So glad to leave that one behind.
Reminds me of a story I heard Venden tell. ( I think it was Venden.) A man was talking to an SDA evangelist. He asked the evangelist just exactly what his message was. The evangelist replied, "Why, I am telling them to get ready for the coming of Christ!"
The man asked, "What if Jesus should come tonight?"
The evangelist replied, "Oh, that would be horrible!"
"Why?" asked the man.
"Because I am not ready!" replied the evangelist.
My sweet little grandmother prayed until her dying day that she and her family would "be ready." She told me this once, and I said, "But Grandma, I am ready." Then she warned me about being presumptuous. There was no comprehension that Jesus Christ worked out our salvation for us. Sad. I do not say she was lost. God forbid I should make that call on anyone! But it is sad that she lived all 102+ years of her life without the certainty that Jesus Christ had truly paid all for her salvation. Same with my other Grandma. Who lived in fear all her life of the justice of God. So sad. |
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