| Author | Message | ||
| jtree |
I often ask: If you were to die today and stand before God, what reason would you give Him for admitting you into His heaven? Are you relying on your efforts to live a good life, keep Ten Commandments, do good, help others, go to church (even putting something in the plate!)? Are you trusting in the fact that in the past you raised your hand, walked an aisle, or signed a card? Do you believe that joining a church, being confirmed, or being baptized will save you? None of these reasons are acceptable to God. None of these things will save anyone. In spiritual matters, manís ways are not Godís ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). Unsaved men view the essence of Christianity as very broad, and its expression amazingly narrow. In other words, some believe a man can get to heaven pretty much as he chooses, and his ěfaithî makes few demands of him. Thus a man can get ěsavedî any way he wants and live with no sense of obligation toward God. I am going to insist that it is just the opposite. The Bible teaches that there is only one way to be saved and that the Christian life affects every facet of a manís life, radically changing his thinking, his attitudes, his values, his priorities, his desires and his conduct. In the Bible the essence of Christianity is very narrow, and the expression of it very broad. | ||
| George |
If what has been said about believing being the only requirement to get to heaven, what is the point of having to die daily? Dying daily should be a moot point. George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Everyone, This has been THE best overall thread yet. It has been so insightful. I have learned a lot from it. It has been interesting watching George's post change as he's begun to understand Salvation. Now to the my "paraphrased" answer to what's the point of dying daily and if you have to die daily , you also have to be born again daily. Or take up your cross daily. We have seen beyond a shadow of a doubt that the only sin to keep up out of heaven is the sin of "unbelief". We are judged by "believer or unbeliever". I believe that when we are to "die daily" and/or to "take up our cross daily", we are NOT even in the same ball park as Salvation. We are in the "REST" of our life that comes after Salvation. (I want to stay away from the "standard catch phrase", Sanctification, for obvious reasons right now.) We are in the life long battle of our natural nature, beings that we are of ourselves sinful and will be till Jesus returns for us. Therefore, since we understand the awesomeness of what was done for us, we want to serve God more and more. We strive to do what we know is right. We know what is right by the promptings of the Holy Spirit and by reading His Word. We have the law written on our hearts, but, we are like Paul when he says in Romans 7; I do not do the good things I want to do. And I do the bad things I hate to do. Paul is an Apostle, he believes and he is saved. If he, in his believing saved condition has to take up his cross and die daily I certainly don't think it is to much of a stretch for us to do the same. Dying daily to the natural man's pride, selfishness, dishonesty, lust, hate, jealousy etc etc is nothing but the work of Sanctification taking place. And what does Hebrews 10:14 say? "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are Sanctified." Are we Sanctified? Of course! The day we sign our $1,000,000 mortgage, is it "OUR" house? Every payment we make on the house brings it pennies closer to being ours. Everyday that we are being Sanctified, brings us closer to the will of God. For the purpose of this illustration, paying off a $1,000,000 house is the work of a life time and so is Sanctification. Did I dig myself into a hole? It's clear in my mind, but did it come across clear to you guys? As for the Acts 2;38 verse. That is the Oneness Penticostal's "BIG" one. It is on their literature in big print, on their business cards and the flagship for their theology. V 38..Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission/forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the the gift of the Holy Spirit. In reserching that verse, (and I'm sorry that I can't tell you the commentary right now that seemed to prove this very convincingly), the word "FOR" the remission of sins should be translated as "BECAUSE OF" the remission of sins. What a difference that makes in the verse. It makes it line up with the rest of the wonderful, assurity of Salvation, verses. What do you think? Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
George If you believe ask the Holy Spirit for the answer he will give it to you. It may take time but be patient. Let me give you my answere to one text. Matt 16:24 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. So if we see that we are sinfull and can not keep the law we see that we are condemned, We must deny that we can do anything to save our selves. Thus we see that we are heading for the cross to die. This is the first part of the Gospel, that is we are to deny our ability to sanctify ourselves. Thus if we lose our life or die to ourselves he will give us Life through His spirit. To pick up the cross daly this is Luke 9:23 I believe once we are saved it is a done deal. But I have notice that in order to do Gods work, or have the Holy Spirt work through me I have to do Gods will and not my own, with my family and friends I have to die daily to my flesh for I still dwell a sinfull body, I am saved but I run the race for the reward 1 Cor 3:10-15 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. I pick up the cross daily for the REWARD. Notice That the reward is not salvation read verse 15 very carfully. I run the race for the prize not for myself but for my savior. George Pick up the Bible and claim the promise that he will reveal all truth and believe. Now read the other text about, dieing daily, read the verses before and after read everything that Paul is saying and in what context. Then wait and be patient he may answere you that day or some time form know but do it and you will find he is true to his word. I recommend every body to do this. Get a ledger and when you come across a text that you do not understand get out your ledger and write the date and the text down and write what you do not understand about the text. Close the Bible and pray and claim the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. Then when the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you it may be then or the next day or even a while from now. When you get the answer write the answer down and the date the Holy spirit revealed it to you and the circumstance. After a while look at your journal you will be suprised. Dont trust in us but in him if truth is revealed to you it is the Holy Spirit. Bruce Heinirch | ||
| Bruce H |
Sorry I have not answered I am on vacation. | ||
| Cas |
George, Wow, just wanted to say you have come a long way baby! If I remember right your posts of a short time ago sound like a different person than now! Is the Lord working through you or what! This is a great thread. | ||
| Colleentinker |
George--I'm rejoicing at how much more peaceful your posts are sounding! First, I want to second what Bruce just posted. I understand your antipathy for the Bible just now. But I would like to encourage you to tell God that you can't read it and concentrate--or even understand it--and ask him to help you begin reading it in a way that will make sense to you. You've been hurt badly by religion. But you must know that the religion that hurt you was not derived from the Bible! Let the Holy Spirit help you begin to foray into His word. He will help you. And, by the way, all of us here got what we believe from the Bible! As to your questions of whether or not all sins are forgiven and whether or not belief is the only requirement. Yes, I believe belief is the only requirement. Yes, I believe we die daily! Truth is always a paradox. The daily dying we do as born-again Christ-followers is our turning over our (still present) sinful impulses to God every day. If we do not "die daily", we are still safe in Christ's heart. But our relationship with him will begin to suffer, and our lives will be less productive. Becoming alive in Christ does not remove temptation from us. It doesn't make us immune to the attractions of self-indulgence. We have to choose to turn over these desires and impulses to Jesus. And he is faithful to hold them and to remake us, gradually and surely. But this part of our spiritual life doesn't negate our security in Christ! Check out Phil 1:6 where Jesus promises that he will complete the work he begins in us. I agree with Bruce: the Cross is what we take up as our reward. The cross may not be pleasant, but it brings joy. By the way, the faith we have is also a gift of God. Our faith is not something we generate. It's something God gives us. Prayers and blessings continue with you, George. Colleen | ||
| George |
Colleen, You sure have a way with words. More later. George | ||
| Lynn W |
George, It looks like you're on the right track. I'd like to also add my vote for reading the Bible. I'd recommend starting with the Gospels and read, not to prove anyone right or wrong, but read to get to know Jesus. Pray that Jesus Himself will be revealed to you in a personal way. Don't worry so much about doctrine just yet, but get to know the character of Christ that you may become more and more like Him. Nothing brought me more peace as a new Christian than learning about Jesus. Also, if you have access, the Movies "Jesus" or "Matthew" are great ways to learn of Jesus. | ||
| Lori |
Hi, George, I would like to recommend to you some tapes that I have listened to over the last several months that have helped free me from the guilt and tremedous burden which lingered within me, because of detesting religion of any sort. He has a rather different approach to ministry than any minister I have ever heard, he does not preach religion at all!!!! He preaches a relationship with Christ. A relationship that is not about do's and don'ts but about the love of God. He preaches a relationship with God that is about who God is and not about who you are. He addresses unbelievers from a language that they understand, UNBELIEF! It did something important for me, it started me from the beginning instead of from the middle (like growing up Adventist did). If you'd like me to send you some information about ordering the tapes (they are completely free of charge) just email me and I'll send you a form back. | ||
| Plain Patti |
For George: I would like to thank you. I have been involved in discussions on a couple of forums concerning Calvinism vs. Arminism. The specific debate has been: Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, or just for the sins of the righteous. Calvinists (or hyper-calvinists, according to many reformed believers) believe in a limited atonement--that Christ died only for the sins of the elect. While I can understand their rationale (quite consistent with the rest of their fundamental beliefs), I could never quite accept it. And the reason I could not accept it was that I do not believe it is supported by the preponderance of Biblical evidence. During the time that I was debating the above question, I just happened to read your response to my post. Your words jumped out at me from the screen: "Now, whoís sins did He die for? The sins of the righteous only, or all sins? If it is ALL sins, then it was for the sins of those that will not get there too. If that is so, what will keep us out of heaven. I think that unbelief is the only thing left." Of course, I believed that, but your words hit me anew, and I finally had my answer. (It was in the Bible all along, but you helped me put the pieces together): John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." This may not seem like an earth-shaking revelation to you, but it is to me. I can now reconcile Christ dying for the sins of the entire world with the punishment of the wicked. How? Because the wicked are not punished for their sins. They are punished for rejecting the One Who can save them, for not believing that Jesus Christ, their Substitute and Surety, is their full salvation, for not accepting the gift of the life and death of Christ on their behalf. WDYT? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, I heard something while driving this morning that made me almost wreck my truck. "It is easier to be friends with God's friend's than to be friends with God." WDYT? I have been trying so hard to deal with the gut wrenching pain of leaving my new found "friend's of God" in another state, that I haven't even really tried to be "God's friend" myself. I try so HARD to deal with it. I guess I need to quit leaning on my own strength and lean on Jesus, huh? If my memory serves me right from 25 years ago, the old SDA Hymnal has a song called "Leaning on Jesus", page 618. I so miss the "good old songs!" I always think of Chuck Swindoll telling from personal experiece, just how difficult it is for "self sufficient" people to trust in Jesus. I hope this concept helps any of you struggling like I have been. Hopefully most of you have grown past this point. Maryann | ||
| BRUCE H |
Maryann What you said is so true. By the way I to miss some of those Old songs. They play them once in a blue moon at my church. Maryann when I saw you and I here you talk I can tell that you are a real self sufficient person, george come across that way also. But If you look at all the greats in the Bible they were all pretty self suficient, but they did rely on God. By the way does anybody know where Jude is??? | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Bruce, Being self confident is a thorn in my side. Properly channeled, it COULD be a blessing. Jude's computer has the flu. Funny how that just a few short years ago, "we" would have said, "what's a computer?" Now it's like losing your right arm when the "stupid" things go down." Maryann | ||
| George |
Plain Patti, I really wish I could take the blame for the statement you gave me credit for. That honor goes to Lori, I think it was posted this last Saturday. It is real nice to see something said a little differently and have it jump out at you. You did that for me when mentioned John 3:17-18 and I think it was verse 36. WE always hear John 3:16 but never the rest of it. And when we do, we still never hear it because we are still hearing ěFor God so loved the world.î While this is a good thing to hear, it should not stop us from hearing the rest of what is said. I have another thought. For those of you having friends and family that are still SDAs that donít want to change, think of this. How strong is your faith in the idea that ALL sins are paid for and the only ěsinî is unbelief . If your friends and family believe that salvation is a free gift and accept it, that in itself, will cover all the ěsinsî of SDAism for them, and you will see them there. Sometimes those closest to us are the ones we are least able to teach. Do any of you have any thoughts on the idea of salvation as it has been explained here on this thread, being the perfection that we have heard so much about? It seems that it is to me. The best to you all------George | ||
| George |
Can anyone tell me how to explain to a child, from the Bible, that it is not only important to listen to and do what God says, but to listen to and do what the parents say,if they believe that the ten commandments have been nailed to the cross,and the commandment to honor your parents is gone, and there for he need not be done any more. This is a kid that EXPECTS the parents to toe the line when he says sometheng and doesn't believe he needs to do what the parents say if he doesn't agree with it. How ever, doing what God says seems to be important. HELP----George | ||
| Grandma. |
You will automatically honor your parents. The holy spirit causes you to do the things you should. That is because you are now depending on the Lord to do in you what you should be doing. | ||
| George |
Grandma, That doesn't work with this child. You noticed I said this child EXPECTS the parents to jump to his tune. With that kind of an attitude you would not think that he is saved, and that he is just using God as a way to get what he wants. He also says it doesn't matter what I do now that I am "saved". This is the part of once saved always saved that bothers me. How do we get this idea out of his head? This kid got his views on salvation from the Baptists. All though I don't think it would have made much difference where he got it. The point is to HIM it means he can to what ever he wants. I have to go now but will finish later. George | ||
| Lori |
Hi, George, Concerning the child: He needs to be warned! That if indeed he is saved and he has accepted Christ as his Saviour then whatever he does that is against God's rules; he will be disciplined by God. "because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son" Heb. 12:6 The original language of this text actually is a lot stronger than this--a more correct interpretation reads more like: He skins us alive with a whip!!!! I can't imagine anything on earth being so fun as to endure being skinned alive with a whip, by God. Your child needs to become more aware of what it means to be a child of God. It is not, believe in Christ, claim His inheritance, and then, go party, be insubordinate and suffer no consequences. Whatever sin that you do, if you live through it, you better hold on for the heavy hand of God will be upon you to deliver discipline AND the discipline, George, may very well be from your hands or the hands of the judicial authorities or from the unseen hand of God. The 'child' is not losing his salvation, over deeds of misbehavior, however, he has lost all inner peace and happiness here on earth. And, the discipline of God can lead to physical death. "There is a sin that leads to death" I John 5 This is not speaking about spiritual death but rather physical death. If your child wants to lead a most miserable life on earth, he may go along and continue on his self driven path. The most miserable people on this earth are Christians that decide NOT to do the will of the Father and the happiest people on this earth are Christian who are taking in Bible Doctrine every day and following the Father's will. If you don't experience discipline than you can know that you are not a child of God! Paul specifically addresses children in Ephesian 6, saying 'children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right" The original Greek meaning of what follows this statement is, that if children obey their parents that they will live a happy and useful life on this earth. In other words, they will have inner peace and happiness from God. And a child that disobeys is breaking the commands of Christ. Because he has commanded us to love and part of loving is obeying! One other point that is very clear in Romans 13 is submission to authorities. It clearly states that everyone is to submit to established authorities. All authority is established by God and their is no authority that God did not establish. Parenting is an establish authority, it is an establishment of God. It goes further to say that anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against God, it is a sin to rebel against authority, and we are punished when we sin, do not confess and continue on our self directed way. | ||
| BMorgan |
George, I will like to add this to what Lori has so eloquently stated. Colossians 3:20 says "Children obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord." The greek word means to line up under someone out of duty. It is a moral obligation. Parents are the God appointed authority for their children. Like Lori says, Rom 13 commands us to obey authority which are from God. Proverbs 30:17 says: "The eye that mocks a father and scorns a mother, the ravens of the valley will pick it out and young eagles will eat it." Some examples of authority include Pastoral, referee, police, teachers, and of course parents. They are not the law, but enforce the law (natural) ie to see everyone is treated equitably. It was seem that the parents are to carefully help their children to obey them. Not by being permissive or authoritarian but with respect, so they will not exasperate the children. v.21 The basic thing I think, is that obedience to parents (authority) Romans 13 is to bring glory to God ultimately. Bringing glory to God, means that we make Him bigger or reflect Him so more people can see. Matt5:16 BMorgan (Who is moving from Law based parenting to grace based parenting and whose children are beginning to enjoy the kingdom of God here on earth.) |
