| Author | Message | ||
| Cas |
Thanks to those who responded to my post and for your prayers. It indeed is mind boggling to leave a church that I have been raised in. My family as well as my husbands are SDA. Our families would probably mark us with 666 on our foreheads themselves to save God from having to do it later! With all jesting aside I find it difficult to deal with the idea of leaving now. (I guess it is the head trip thing). I do agree with Pastor Harry, his statement really hit home that living on both sides of the fence eventually tears one apart. Yes Pator Harry that is exactly what is happening. So I continue to pray that God will resolve this issue and guide us where he wants us . Thanks to everyone for the support. | ||
| Karen marketti |
Cas, This is my first time on this website so I hope you will still get to read this. I understand how you are feeling. Last October the Lord started dealing with me about the SDA church. He was leading me to get out of the EGW books and focus on him. When he told me impressed me to leave the church after this. I couldn't. I was scared. I felt secure in the church. Well you know that the Lord knows best for us. It took another six months to do it though. Infact, They read my letter last week on requesting to be taken off as a member. It has been a scarey road to out there without the security fo the church. I no longer have contact with anyone. They all think I am lost. They don't understand what new joy I have now. The Holy spirit has taught me that God does not have favortism of any kind. He also showed me to look at the Pharisees and Sudacees. They were afraid to lose their comfort in the church too. They liked the rules and the security it brought them. Thier attitudes of them being the true people showed me how the Sda church is. You see Cas, the Lord is leading you to freedom. He wants you to accept the truth in Galations. Look at Pochus Pilot. (another way the Lord opened my eyes) Jesus told him he was the King and told him who he was. He wanted to believe the man doctrine over Jesus. He was so close, but he let his feelings of what people might think of him get in the way. Cas please don't let family or friends get in your way to follow what God wants for you. You might be marked by friends and family with the 666, but the Lord said in Matthew 7:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his rightousnes: and all these things shall be added unto you. Remember the Pharisees and Sudacees. They did not accept the Lord. They believed so much in thier owm man doctrines that they lost the message the Lord wanted them to have so badly. God does not have favortism, and I don't belive he has a favorite church either. I will sincerely pray for you, Cas. | ||
| Joni Buhler (Joni) |
I happened upon this site 3 weeks ago. I have not written yet. I have been reading with amazement all the comments. I was a SDA from 73 to 85 and then 89 to 97. I left the Church in 85 because of personal problems. I became a hermit. I started to study my Bible in 90 with a group of women. We used "Precepts",very indept studies using the inductive method. I loved it. I learned that God loved me a sinner. I did not have to isolate myself from God and man. He came to save me. I learned for the first time what it meant to be born again and to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit. I am sure of where I stand with God. You see I believe His living word. I could no longer attend the SDA Church. Since 1997 we have attended another Church. One book that I read was "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVondren. It helped me to finally leave the SDA. 2 weeks ago the new pastor from the SDA Church came to visit me. Now I am a bit confused. Esp. about the dead, eternal suffering, and Sabbath. I do not want to focus on these issues. But they nag at me. I have been studying my Bible like never before and I teach "Precepts" to mostly women in homes. There is so much that I need to learn and I need to trust more. In the back of my head is a little nag that says what if Sabbath really is the seal of God? What if Sunday really is the mark of the beast? How do I get rid of this. I want to glorify God and bring others to Him and To a true salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to serve others and be a true bond-servant of Christ. There are some close friends that I know who still go to the SDA Church. We do things together often. One of them gave me a lecture on not coming to Church. My husband's family is all SDA and live in Berrin Springs and his parents at CUC. When they come I take them to the SDA Church. And it starts all over again. My husband went to all SDA schools and graduated from Loma Linda Med. School. He is just now having faith in God again. He is supportive and does not want to go back to the SDA church at this point. He has started coming to the Bible Studies at the church we attend with me. Please pray for me. Once and for all I want to be grounded in the Lord and the Bible. Joni | ||
| Lydell |
Joni, I'll try this again. Apparently my last message didn't post. It sounds like you are having a rough time. Please don't feel like it is just you. All of us who have left the church have been through the questionings. Yours is probably tough because of the family and friends input. In the spirit you KNOW that the most important issue is salvation by grace alone. And you KNOW that you are secure in the Father's arms. And you KNOW that if He were truly upset with you about not keeping sabbath, then He certainly wouldn't be pouring out spiritual blessings on you as you have told us that he has been. Right? Those are things that we can take the scriptures and point out the references to show where we get what we believe. But the knowing is something entirely different! That is something that happens in the spirit because the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit that they are true, as well. Remember that you have already learned that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So, any feelings of condemnation that come on you you should realize quickly are NOT from God. It sounds like you have a sincere heart to know and teach the truth. God knows that about you. He is never going to leave you to blunder into error again while your heart is so firmly fixed on Him...and you are willing to listen for His guidance. May I suggest that perhaps the problem with your frustrated feelings could be coming from one of two things. First, perhaps you are allowing other people to turn your focus on this stuff that they believe is important, but that their voices are interfering with what God is trying to say to you. He is likely trying to teach you many many other things like prayer, the gifts of the Spirit, walking by faith not sight, and instead you keep getting caught back in the trap of looking at those things that the SDA's always declared were SO important. If that is the case, then it is going to have to take you getting with God and placing these issues firmly in His hands. let Him know that you want to hear from Him and Him alone when He is ready for you to learn about these topics and, until then, ask Him to cover you with the ability to set them aside and not let other people trouble you. If you can do that, I can tell you from personal experience that when His time comes for the learning to happen, He will feed you the information left and right. Everytime you pick up the Bible something new will leap out at you and the threads will just come together. Every sermon you hear will address the topic. There will be magazine articles, songs, and yes, even those darn conversations with the relatives new stuff will leap out saying, "hello...that ain't right!...or HEY I never thought about that side of it before." If it really IS a matter, you believe, of God wanting you to now look at these things, then maybe the problem is that you have all the SDA teachings still rolling around in your head. (And they are constantly being renewed by friends and family!!) But now it is time to put the inductive studies to work and examine the other side. My I offer the suggestion that for looking at the issue of the sabbath, you can't get better info than is in the book on this site. http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~rlm/brin.html It won't be just stuff about the sabbath. You can't approach the study it that way. The whole issue rests in a solid understanding of law/grace/and the covenants. I believe you will find, as I did, that there is stuff here that will tie all the threads of what you have already been learning together. Like I said, use those inductive study skills and be patient with yourself. You'll get there. The issues you mentioned aren't THE issues of importance to your salvation. You have time to study them and let the Lord confirm and confirm and confirm again what He wants you to see. He is faithful to do that for us. One thing that struck me from reading the site I'm sending you to is that we get tripped up from approaching the topic, for instance of the sabbath, from a standpoint of answering the SDA arguments. You really can't start from there tho, because they start at the wrong place. You simply can't understand the substance of grace by looking at the shadow of the law. The subjects have to be approached as the early Christian church did. They took what they had seen, heard, and experienced in Christ presence among them, and then looked backwards to see how all the stuff they had been taught as a kid fit with that reality. The SDA's instead start with the Old Testament and work their way forward. I believe if you think about it for awhile, you will realize that this is exactly what they do. It's backwards thinking and we have to guard against falling into the same trap. Anyway, I'm praying God's blessing on you in your search for the peace in KNOWING that you KNOW. | ||
| Joni Buhler (Joni) |
Lydell, Thank you for responding. I never thought about the fact that I am still being blessed and learning and have found (or maybe I should say God has provided)wonderful born again Christian friends. I think my problem is that the old tapes still run when I am faced by my friends from the SDA church. I truly think they are afraid for me. I just realized the question at the top of this forum. I think I did answer it in first letter I wrote. I have been reading Revelation over and over again the last few weeks. Does anyone know any good books or studys on Revelation besides SDA? Joni | ||
| Lynn |
Joni, the 2nd most important book you can own is an exhaustive concordance, such as Strong's. If you don't own one, you need to start there before you can really go much further. Look up every occurence of seal of God. See what it is; also notice what it isn't. I know that leaving the church is not enough. Even when you decide that, from now on, you want all your doctrine straight from the Bible & nothing else, you still have a head full of doctrine which you've always assumed was scriptural. My friend who's been out of the church for 3 years still frequently starts questions to me by saying, "Now is this Bible, or Ellen White...?" She'll be sorting for a while, but she's getting it. You need to attach yourself to a Christian friend who is very knowledgable of scripture & willing to disciple you. Then fire away with questions whenever they come up. I guarantee, some of your questions will shock your non-Adventist friends because they are concepts so unheard-of outside Adventism. Yet a good Christian friend will respect that you are simply putting what you've always been taught to the Biblical test. In the process, you will challenge them to confirm what they believe by scripture & together you will both learn more. Keep searching. God Bless. Lynn | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Joni--I understand what you're going through. I agree with Lynn; have a biblically grounded Christain friend of whom you can ask questions. Before my husband and I left the church we had weekly Bible studies with Christian friends who didn't know much about Adventism. When we read through Revelation and we'd make comments about what we thought passages might mean, they would say, "Where's that in the Bible?" It was such a "revelation" to read that book with someone who didn't know the EGW interpretations. Another thing that was very important for us was realizing the spiritual bondage connected with Adventism. When we enrolled our boys in a Christian academy instead of an SDA one last year, our younger son was dealing with fear of changing schools. I sat down with him to talk about it, and I was praying that I'd know what to say so he could resolve his fear. What came out of that conversation I'd never thought of before. I asked him why EGW was a problem, and when he said that she was a false prophet, I asked him where her visions came from. He replied, "Satan." I said (and this surprised me) Satan is the father of lies, and since the church was founded in deceit, Satan claims anything Adventist. Jesus has a claim also because the church teaches Jesus, but because Satan has a claim, he confuses the truth and makes it so people can't understand the reality of salvation and the truth of the Bible. I told my husband of my new understanding, and after talking about it for a few days we decided we had to renounce Adventism. We got our boys together, and the four of us knelt and asked God to take away the spirit of Adventism from our hearts. We asked him to place his Holy Spirit in the place where the spirit of Adventism had been. After we prayed, we knew without any doubt that we were no longer Adventists, and we have never looked back.Also after we prayed, many subtle but distinct SDA beliefs popped into focus, and we could see how they disagreed with the Bible. God wants us to be free, and he wants us to live in the joy of his grace. He will lead you steadily, one step at a time, toward himself and his love and Truth. Remember, He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it! (Ph. 1:6) I'm praying for you! | ||
| Joni Buhler (Joni) |
To all above, Something that just hit me while reading your letters: I have an attitude that really bugs me. I think I know it all!!! I know "truth" I know answers, I know my Bible!!!! But what you both are saying is that I know Adventism!!! I find myself getting so upset because of this attitude, it's the same in the SDA church. The same spirit of satan isn't it? The father of lies and arrogance. He wants us to think that we know everything so we don't ask questions of others. I was taught not to read other's materials. I hope that I'm not making a pest of myself. It has been so long in keeping all this to myself. I was afraid to talk to Adventists for fear of putting "doubt" and "confusion" in anyone else's mind. I was afraid to talk to my new Christian friends because I thought they wouldn't understand. Thank you, Joni | ||
| Lynn |
Joni, Wow, you just about quoted from my ex-Adventist friend's testimony, "The church gave me many things, including a love for truth and a curiosity for spiritual things. I thought it also gave me a knowledge of the Bible. I was complimented while very young that I knew the Bible very well for a child. I prided myself in being good at Bible trivia. I worked with the young people in the Pathfinder Club and taught Sabbath School at all ages. Nobody could say I didnít love my church, but I didnít realize how limited my understanding of God and His Word was." She still quotes "verses" she learned as an Adventist, such as "do not grieve away the Holy Spirit." As Colleen wrote, you should be asking of everything, "Where's that in the Bible?" When a scripture has to be rewritten, that's a clue, that something has been changed to fit doctrine. The one thing I noticed most consistently with Adventists is that they always told me not only what they believe, but also what I believe. But never did they ASK me what I believe. Built-in safety measure, of course. Keep asking. Lynn | ||
| Joni Buhler (Joni) |
lydell, I have just finished reading most of what you reccomended in your reply. It was most interesting and it does put together everything that I have been studying, seeing, thinking etc. Interpreting the OT from the NT does seem to make much more sense. It really hit me that Holiness is found in Christ. The author says that infantile minds find holiness in substance, times and places: foods, what day to worship and where to worship. The elements of the world Gal. 4:13 Isaiah 66:23 as the glory of the messianic age being filled according to the Spirit of the new age, instead of literally: this was interesting to me. Have to meditate on this. It does make sense. Also the difference of the law and the Spirit in Romans and why Paul seemed to rely more on the law was very interesting to me. It all comes together. All in all I learned and enjoyed reading this. Thank you for your help. As I was reading the parts about sabbath keeping and the testing truth according to SDA. I remembered one time I was riding my bike on the Sabbath in our neighborhood which was all SDA. (well almost). The next day I got a visit from a neighbor who explained to me that I was breaking the sabbath because I rode my bike. The next week on sabbath I rode my bike past her house many times so she would see me. No one was going to tell me what I could and couldn't do. My spirit has been broken by Christ. I am stubborn, quietly stubborn. I pray that Jesus takes this away so I don't miss what He says. He is so faithful. Anyway thanks for the info. Joni | ||
| Susan (Susan) |
JONI, Just read your request for good books or studies on Revelation. I'm in Community Bible Study, (a wonderful non-denominational, world-wide program, kind of similar to Bible Study Fellowship) and last year we did a study of Revelation. Wow! It's now one of my favorite books of the bible. As an SDA-kid, Revelation always freaked me out. When I became a Christian, as an adult, I kind of stayed away from the back of my bible. What a mistake! It's filled with so much encouragement for believers/overcomers (I love this description!). Anyway, if you have this program CBS or BSF in your area perhaps you could contact them to see if you can join,(you'll be blessed beyond belief!) or just order the lesson. I'm not sure if they do that. While doing the study last year I also read Michael Card's book "Unveiled Hope" on Revelation. Great insight, and there's a music CD with the same title. Any Christian book store should carry it or Christianbooks.com will have it. I've heard good things about R.C. Sproul's book on end times(haven't read this one). Don't know the title but it's fairly recent (1-3 yrs. it's been out?). But most of what Sproul puts out is exremely reliable. Hope this helps a little. I have a phone # for the headquarters of CBS it's 703-438-8223 they should be able to direct you to a local study and answer any questions about obtaining materials. God Bless! Susan | ||
| Lydell |
Joni, it blesses me to hear that the info I sent you to helped. The thanks go to God, of course, not me. :-) The Holy Spirit has done some funny things in our lives since we left the SDA's. He has proved that He has a sense of humor. And I feel impressed to relate how I came to read that website myself. Maybe it will help someone else somehow to see that the Lord is also working in funny ways with others. A bit over 2 years ago, we had reached the ends of our ropes (my hubby and I and my best friend Kathy who came out of the SDA's with us). We knew we needed something more in our lives. We had been meeting as a home church.....oh so incredibly stupid! We felt that longing for the corporate experience of worship. We knew we needed refreshing from God. We just didn't know what in the world to do about it. Well, finally we took a really desperate step. We stopped praying about the problem and actually decided to shut-up and listen to what He had to say in answer. Radical, huh?! We asked for his direction of where to go, and that he would confirm in several ways that we were following his direction. Boy, has he been faithful to answer that prayer! We first went to a Christian coffee shop. We had prayed on the way there that if this wasn't the place, someone would give us an invitation to the place where God really wanted us. Guess what, that night three people there invited us to visit their church. ( It turns out that their pastor also had stopped by that night for a visit and we briefly met him. It was the only time he ever visited that coffee shop.) And that church has turned out to be the place where God wanted us. It has been such a blessing in our lives! The first time we walked through the doors we felt the presence of God. The confirmation that it was so came later in so many ways. But, after we had begun attending there we were still bothered about the question of, "what about the sabbath." We honestly believe that the Lord was the one who laid a conviction on us to start keeping the sabbath before we went to the SDA's. Now here he had led us to a church that met on Sunday. What in the world was He doing now! It was so confusing. I kept praying that no one there would ask me anything like, "well how does it feel to no longer be keeping sabbath," because I didn't want to have to try to explain why we WERE still keeping sabbath also. I'd begun having the sneaking suspicion that the whole issue of sabbath was standing in the way of other things God was trying to do in me. Particularly in the area of bringing healing to a certain area of my life. And that he wanted me to set that aside for awhile. I wasn't about to voice that suspicion to the others mind you! And besides, I was a bit annoyed with God anyway. I figured that if HE had laid the conviction on me to keep sabbath, then it was up to Him to explain it personally, and I wasn't interested in hearing what anyone else had to say! I'm stuboorn too!! We were having a discussion one day about the subject. We were saying that probably what was going on was God was just going to teach us some stuff for awhile and THEN sending us back to the SDA church to witness to people there again. And that was why we didn't understand yet. My friend left the room for some reason, then came back a short time later with the funniest look on her face! Like I said. God sure has a sense of humor! She told us, with a great deal of embarrassment, that she thought maybe she had just had a vision. She saw us walking through a forest carrying boxes and we met Jesus on the path. He told us to set down our boxes and follow Him. We protested that we had our stuff in our boxes and couldn't just leave them there. His reply was, "just set them down. It will be okay. You can come back for them later." "Now what the heck is THAT supposed to mean!" she asked in shock. Man, I knew! The sabbath was in the way, and when he was ready He was going to explain the subject. So, I gave the "box" to Him and promised not to worry over it until He told me to. (By the way, we had discussed it that day and were sure! this meant that someday he would take us back to sabbathkeeping again and a sabbathkeeping church body. That all this was just a temporary measure.) Several times He would have to tap me on the shoulder and say, "excuse me, did I just see you peeking in the box? You aren't ready for that yet." And I'd repent and go back to the topic he had been trying to teach me........which by the way was always something I didn't really want to learn yet. One morning I woke up and my first concious thought was , "okay today is the day. This is the day we are going to look in the box." And the next thought was the website address I gave you. I laid there praying, "hold up God. This isn't fair! I'm not looking at anything until we first review all of those verses you gave me before you sent us to the SDA church!" Like I said, I AM stubborn. You know what? I couldn't think of them! NONE of them. Hey, all of you know what it is like. You know those verses cold! You can recite them backwards. ( I can rattle them off the top of my head again now.) But just at that moment, they were all GONE! It was as if the Lord were saying, "no way. We are starting clean here. If you want to hear from me, then you are going to hear from ME!" (Since then he has taken me back over all the standard arguments, by the way.) When I went to the website, I just clicked on a chapter at random and the thing that immediately leaped out was, "I AM your sabbath rest." And such a tremendous peace and certainity! I read much of the stuff there in protest, but realized that I couldn't argue with it. It was truth, straight from the word. God is so patient and good! | ||
| Bruce H |
Hey everybody, check out the very last word in the old covenant (or old testament)! Wow, is that just a coincidence or what. |
