| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Everyone, I didn't see anything on the Forum about the Trinity. Soooo, I think I'll bring it up. Being married to a non-trinitarian has been interesting to say the least. Getting theologically buried by his church people has been very uncomfortable and frustrating! :-( They, for the most part, are very well studied in the KJ only Bible. They are artist with it. If you've never come up against a non-trinitarian that knows his stuff, you have NO idea how well they can present their stuff! I was always taught the Trinitarian view as an SDA. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit = 3 in 1 God. I have heard other explanations that were passable. I heard something today that really made more sense to me than anything I had ever heard. The Trinity is a mathematical nightmare. 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 God. That just doesn't make sense. Then there is 1 whole pie divided into 3 pieces: 1 whole piece + 1 whole piece + 1 whole piece = 1 whole pie. That doesn't work either as you have reduced Each to 1/3 of a God to = 1 God. Now, what DID make sense was 1 whole God x 1 whole God x 1 whole God = 1 whole God. Mathematiclly correct and makes sense to a human mind. Is my human mind messed up? Does that make sense to you guys? Please let me know what you think of this. Maryann P.S.......I was personally introduced to Chinese medicine today! First, I was metamorpha-sized into a "porcupine" with a zillion needles sticking out of me, then, I went to "death row" by having some of those needles hooked up to a zillion volts of electricity and zapped till I was dead, then, was rolled over and a bonfire of herbs lit on my back till I was "cremated!" :-( Some how I came back to life. And guess what, I'm going back for more Friday?! And I wonder if my mind is okay? | ||
| Joni |
Maryann, I have a friend who is a lovely "Christian" I'v known her for a few years before I found out that she does not believe in the trinity. I never realized that there was such a belief. But what she says makes sense. She wants me to read a book called "ONE LORD ONE GOD" I prayed that if the Lord wanted me to read it she would send it to me because I am not going to buy it. So far no book. It gets so confusing. I pray continually. I only want to know God and have a relationship with Him and to know His own truth. Joni btw I enjoyed your chinise experience!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Joni, How about beating your friend to the punch. There is a book called, "Oneness Penticostals & The Trinity", by Gregory A. Boyd (a former Oneness} and. "The Forgotten Trinity", by James R. White", that would be great for HER to read. Actually, good for you to read too. If you can't find them, I'll get you more info. Oneness Penticostals are generally known as, United Penticostal Church (UPC) There is a UPC author, David K. Bernard, that has written a stack of books, but "One Lord, One God" isn't one of them he has listed. In one of his books, "The Oneness View of Jesus Christ" p. 10, he claims monotheism, then takes it to "his" interpretation. "One of the clearest themes of Scripture is an uncompromising monotheism. Simply stated, God is absolutely and indivisibly one. There are no essential disinctions in His eternal nature. All names and titles of the Deity- such as Elohim, Yahweh, Word, and Holy Spirit- refere to one and the same being." It is hard to just pick another quote as there are so many that are un-believable. P.69-71 states this under the heading, "Begotten at a Certain Time". "The Bible never speaks of an 'eternal Son,' which is a contradiction in terms, but of the 'begotten Son.' Contrary to trinitarian theory, the Son is not eternal but was formed during the time of the law and in the womb of a woman. "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law' (Galations 4:4)" "The Son is not eternally being begotten as orthodox trinitarianism teaches, but the begetting of Jesus occured at a certain point in human history. 'Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee' (Psalms 2:7; Hebrews 1:5). The Book of Psalms declares this truth propheticlly, while Hebrews explains that the prophecy came to pass in Jesus. Jesus was begotten as a baby in the womb of Mary before his birth in this world (Hebrews 1:5-6), and He was begotten from the dead by His resurection (Acts 13:33: Rev. 1;5)." "The begetting of the Son was still future in the Old Testament, and therefore all Old Testament references to the Son of God are prophetic. Using II Samuel 7:14 as a type of the Messiah, Hebrews 1:5 depicts God looking to the future" 'I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son.' The distinction between Father and Son does not apply to an eternal relationship within the Godhead, but it referes to the relationship of the Spirit of God to the authentic man in whom He dwelt fully. In short, the role of the Son began with the Incarnation." "Trinitarians often cite two Old Testament passages as proof that the Son existed as a second person before the Incarnation. First, Proverbs 30:4 asks, 'Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the winds in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name if thou canst tell?' The context, however speaks of human ignorance and error in contrast to divine perfection (Proverbs 30:2-6). The prophet Agur issued a challenge: Do you know anyone who can do what God can do? If so, name him, and identify him by telling us who his son is. In other words, no one is God's equal." "Daniel 3:25 records King Nebuchadnezzar's description of the forth man that appeared in the fire with the three young Hebrew men: 'the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.' In the original Hebrew text, there is no initial definite article ('the'), and thus the phrase can be rendered 'a son of the gods' (NIV). It is unlikely that Nebuchadnezzar knew about the prophecies concerning the Messiah, and it is historically impossible for him to have referred to the doctrine of the trinity. We can be sure of what he meant, for in the same passage he identified the figure he saw as an angel of God (Daniel 3:28). Perhaps this figure was a temporary manifestation of God (a theophany), but if so, nothing indicates that this manifestation had the features of the Son later born of Mary." ?????????!!!!!!!!!!!! :-( Grrrrrrrrrr Soooooooo, can you see one of the reasons why I miss the company of my "new" friends? I'm surrounded by heresy. My kids don't know which way is up, who to believe etc etc. I'm on constant alert to detect some heresy someone has told them. Then, do you wonder why I tried out Chinese medicine? This morning, I drank the 1st of 6 cups of the nastiest Chinese tea (black sludge)that I am to drink over the next 3 days :-( So far, it has stayed down :-) Well, I have to go do something. Maryann | ||
| Steve Pitcher |
Hi All, The doctrine of the deity of Christ and the Trinity are two that are very special to me. For starters, if Jesus is not God Almighty, then we are still in our sins. He may have died for HIMSELF, but if He's not God, His sacrifice would only have been an example for us, not a substitution. The more I read the NT, the more it becomes crystal clear that Jesus was God in human flesh. Scripture says that Jesus is the very representation of His Being. Not just His character, not just His love, but all of Him. I've met with Jehovah's Witnesses ever since I became a Christian and it's amazing how blind they are ("seeing, they do not see"). The claims of Jesus we're clearly seen by the Pharisees. In John 8:58 in a discussion with them Jesus stated: "In all truth I tell you, before Abraham ever was, I am." Walter Martin (a personal hero) always taught that the Greek words ego eimi were the exact same words used in the Septaguint. When reading Exodus 3:14, the Jews always read ego eimi when God said I AM. Jesus was very clear to them who He was claiming to be. It was because of this that they picked up stones to stone Him. Why? See John 10:32,33 "so Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many good works from my Father; for which of these are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'We are stoning you, not for doing a good work, but for blasphemy; though you are only a man, you claim to be God.' If the Pharisees recognized that, why are we so slow to come to the same conclusion? Of course, the SDA church is guilty of having Arians (the ancient heresy of Jesus being only a created being, not God) in their midst. At a sabbath school I taught a few months ago, I asked how many joined the church before the mid-50's. A number of hands went up. I went on to explain that not only did the church not teach trinitarianism until the 1950's, but in the hymnal, the hymn Holy, Holy, Holy had been changed in the "old hymnal" FROM "God in three persons, blessed Trinity" TO "God over all, who reigns eternally". Only in the new hymnal published in 1985, was the hymn returned to it's original phrasing. (It's number 73 in the new and old hymnal, if you want to check. Of course, if you came to SDAism before 1985 and sang Holy, Holy Holy from the old hymnal, then, perhaps unwittingly, you were changing the teaching of the Trinity in that song, to an anti-Trinitarian stance. JUST FOR THAT SONG! I myself sang that, but only realized later, when a pastor pointed it out to me, that it was not just non-Trinitarian, but because of the change, it was actually anti-Trinitarian.) I notice that much effort goes into trying to make the Old Testament show the Trinity. Although we can look there and see evidences of the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, we must be careful to realize that the fullness of God was revealed in Christ, and is now revealed to us through His Holy Spirit. It is in the New Testament that we can clearly teach the Trinity. Just as we have left/are leaving SDAism, once we understand the Law, we don't use the Law to explain the Gospel, we use the Gospel to explain the Law. The same goes for the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. We need to be clear that the NT explains the OT, not the other way around. Beware of those who say that they don't believe in the Trinity because the word never appears in scripture. Just because a word never appears doesn't mean that the idea is wrong. When studying the Deity of Christ, I found a great study when I looked up the words First and Last, Beginning and End, and Alpha and Omega. When discussing this with Jehovah's Witnesses, I've been able to show that not only Jehovah God (Yahweh) calls Himself the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, but Jesus is called that as well. Comparing the scriptures in Isaiah and Revelation regarding these phrases is a great blessing. A part of the heresy of the Oneness Pentecostals is an idea close to Modalism. Modalism teaches that God was once the Father, became the Son, then became the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure about the UPC but with folks like Witness Lee and his Living Stream Ministry, they also teach that God will eventually be manifested in His church. Yes, THE CHURCH WILL ACTUALLY BECOME THE FOURTH MANIFESTATION OF GOD! Doesn't that sound a lot like the SDA teaching that the believers in the last days will live PERFECTLY, WITHOUT THE NEED FOR AN INTERCESOR? I'm afraid that SDAism comes awfully close to this teaching. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that SDAism is Modalistic. But after 150 years of compromising the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, are we (they) really going to get it right without a struggle? In Jehovah's Witness literature, Should You Believe in the Trinity, they teach that the idea of the Trinity is pagan, and the Christian Trinity came about because of the Council of Nicea. A careful study of that, which I've done, will show that the idea of the Trinity, and the very word itself, was in use long before the Council of Nicea. Gregorius Thaumaturgus not only taught the Deity of Christ, he also taught the Deity of the Holy Spirit and used the word Trinity in the year 170 AD. (I hope my memory is serving me right!) The Trinity, the Deity of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father, has been a teaching of Christians since long before 325 AD. Let's not let craftiness and an appeal to paganism cloud our thinking. The pagans also believed in God. Does that mean that we should't believe in God? If we the logic carefully to a conclusion, we can see how dangerous that kind of thinking is. If Christ was not God in human flesh, we are still dead in our trespasses and sins. In Him, Who is my Hope, Steve | ||
| Bruce H |
Here is a way a friend of mine put it to me. He says we are made in Gods image and we are three things, Body, soul, and spirit. know when I look at myself I only see one but the Bible says I am three. Know think obout this, Jesus is the Body or physical body of God and his Spirit is the Holy Spirit and his soul is the Father. Remember Moses would talk face to face with God with no problems, that is because he was talking to the Body, but when he wanted to see God he said I will hide you in a rock and put my hand over you and I will let you see my backside, Moses this time looking at the soul of God. Do not take this as scriptual I have never read this Idea from any body or writer but it does sound interesting. By the way steve I agree with you on this statment. ----The doctrine of the deity of Christ and the Trinity are two that are very special to me. For starters, if Jesus is not God Almighty, then we are still in our sins. He may have died for HIMSELF, but if He's not God, His sacrifice would only have been an example for us, not a substitution.--------- Amen to that. BH | ||
| Bruce H |
Here is a way a friend of mine put it to me. He says we are made in Gods image and we are three things, Body, soul, and spirit. know when I look at myself I only see one but the Bible says I am three. Know think obout this, Jesus is the Body or physical body of God and his Spirit is the Holy Spirit and his soul is the Father. Remember Moses would talk face to face with God with no problems, that is because he was talking to the Body, but when he wanted to see God he said I will hide you in a rock and put my hand over you and I will let you see my backside, Moses this time looking at the soul of God. Do not take this as scriptual I have never read this Idea from any body or writer but it does sound interesting. By the way steve I agree with you on this statment. ----The doctrine of the deity of Christ and the Trinity are two that are very special to me. For starters, if Jesus is not God Almighty, then we are still in our sins. He may have died for HIMSELF, but if He's not God, His sacrifice would only have been an example for us, not a substitution.--------- Amen to that. BH | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Maryann and all, This is the first time I've read here the anti-trinitarian stuff, such as: "The begetting of the Son was still future in the Old Testament, and therefore all Old Testament references to the Son of God are prophetic. Using II Samuel 7:14 as a type of the Messiah, Hebrews 1:5 depicts God looking to the future" 'I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son.' The distinction between Father and Son does not apply to an eternal relationship within the Godhead, but it referes to the relationship of the Spirit of God to the authentic man in whom He dwelt fully. In short, the role of the Son began with the Incarnation." And I admit to being a bit surprised. I've never before read such garbage (as the above graf)! This is not so much an attack on the trinity so much as it is an attack on the deity of Christ. This is the point not to be missed. Anti-trinitarianism, may have some independent importance, but it is as nothing compared to the attack on Christ's full divinity. Jesus Christ is God, completely and fully. For example, John 8:58,59 NIV says, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am! At this, they [the Jews] picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." The term "I am" is the meaning of the name Yahweh. In other words Jesus was saying, I AM YAWEH!" That's why the Jews picked up stones to execute him, since the Old Testament law says: "Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD [YAWEH = I AM] must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name [LORD = YAWEH = I AM], he must be put to death." Leviticus 24:16 NIV. The fact that in Euclidian math 1+1+1=3, not 1, has no bearing at all upon the spiritual reality that Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all IDENTICAL. This is no "committee God," as our SAD friends would have us believe. It is a mystery. How dare we shake our puny Euclidian mathmatics in the face of YAWEH! "The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his wrath, saying 'I have installed my King [Christ = I AM = YAWEH] on Zion, my holy hill." Psalm 2:4-6 NIV. How powerful! How beautiful! And how true! Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude the Vacationer, Soooo, you voiced your opinion on "1+1+1=3, not 1, has no bearing at all upon the spititual reality that Jesus and the Father and the Father are all IDENTICAL." You didn't comment on the 1x1x1=1? To my "little pointed" head, that makes it really easy to explain. Please correct me if I'm wrong minded. Do you have a bit of a taste of what I'm up against with this anti-trinitarian stuff. Do you see why I've asked several people to help me out? Do you see why I've essentially thrown my hands in the air? I brought this subject up so as to take a break from the "grind" of SDAism. I sorta needed a change. You mentioned John 8:58 as one of our cornerstones. Here is what they do to that and other similar verses. Hang on :-( Page 54 of the above "Bernard" book under the heading, "Creation by Jesus Christ". "The New Teastament reveals that Jesus Christ is the one God of the old Testament-Jehovah-manifested in the flesh (John 8:58;20:28: Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16). Thus, as the following passages declare, Jesus is the Creator. *'All things were made by him; and without him was not anything that was made' (John 1:3). *'By him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him' (colossians 1:16). *'Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands' Hebrews 1:10)." "Some of the passages that speak of Jesus as the Creator also refer to Him as the Son. (See Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 1:8.) Conequently, trinitarians maintain that an eternal Son co-created the world alongside a distinct person called the Father. But these passages can be understood as simply stating that the One who later became the Son created the world. For example, when we say, 'President Lincoln was born in Kentucky,' we do not mean that he was president at that time. Rather, the one who later became president was born there." "The title 'Son' refers to the humanity conceived in the womb of Mary. (See Luke 1:35; Galations 4:4; Hebrews 1:5.) As such, the Son did not exist before the Incarnation and did not create the world in the beginning. The Creator is the eternal Spirit of God who later incarnated Himself in the Son and was manifested as Jesus Christ." Sorry to cause such a gasp! But this is un-real. I MUST say, I don't know how I have been able to hold on to the little remaining saneness that I have left! I'm so discouraged at times, and RIGHT now is one of those times. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Yo Maryann! Bless you! And love your 1x1x1=1. That's as perfect as a joshua tree flower! Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Yo again J the V, I just came back from painting baseboards in the garage and was feeling a twinge of guilt as I seemed to have "grouched" at you. Sorry :-) Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, I can not comprehend the struggle that you are having because I haven't been there and even if I had, I know it still would not be the same as what you are going through. Your reaction need not be to push the panic button and enter into panic palace to reside there. You need to rest in your faith, it's God's battle, not yours, it doesn't matter what the source is. You need to claim those promises of God, whether it is a single verse or a certain doctrinal subject and rest in it!!!!! If you are 'breathing in' (inhaling) the word of God then when you breathe out (exhale) you should be able to exhale a resting faith in the promises you have inhaled!!!! You've simply got to stop inhaling the garbage, it doesn't matter why you are inhaling the garbage, you've got to stop. It's clogging up your breathing system and making it difficult for you to rest in faith. You're gasping for your next breathe instead of inhaling (truth-the word of God) and exhaling (divine points of view and resting in faith). Every time you inhale the false doctrine, it clogs you up!!! It moves you into despair, which is the front yard of panic palace. And, that's where the enemy wants you to reside, because you are without inner peace when you are there. But God wants you to reside in His Word. His Word brings inner peace. Even while standing in opposition to your family there is no reason that you shouldn't have the inner peace of God with you all the time. In all situations. Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Lori, Thank you for the above post The "Inhale" and "Exhale", that was good. I still have to disagree? (I'm such a disagreeable person). :-) :-) I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT ALL THIS OTHER IS ABOUT BASICLY! How else am I going to understand the little "Chicken Scratch" things that are always coming up? They are so sly and subtle! I haven't mentioned this before, but, my husband is also a "Worshipful Past Master" of the Masonic Lodge ! :-( Grrrrrr!? Add that to the Oneness, SDA and Agnostic in my immediate, living on the same property family. Maybe Jude was right, way back in Feb. when he said God had a plan for my life. There is nothing I'd rather do than to stick my head in the sand and let all this go away. BUT, I JUST CAN'T. I got to know what the heresy is to protct MY kids. They are MY responsibility. So sadly, I've failed them miserably. I'm not biting you head off, please understand, I'm drowning. Don't be shy about answering back, I really DO appreciate it. Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, I understand your disagreement!!! I don't fault you for it...... And, Jude is 100% correct, God does have a plan for you and you are in it RIGHT NOW!!! My means to protect my children is to give them Bible Doctrine-----not religious doctrine or church doctrines, but Bible Doctrines. My children are still relatively small and I'm beginning right now to arm them with scriptures that they can apply to the things that confront them. I've become accutely aware of how deficient I have always been bringing Bible Doctrine to the forefront to combat things with. I'm just beginning with my children to teach them scriptures to help them with their fear of storms, the dark, etc....My favorite for night time fears is Psalm 4:8, "I will lie down and sleep in peace for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety". It works!! My littlest was scared of tornados last night, we repeated the scripture several times and he fell asleep with no problem. I realize that your drowning; (I can 'hear' that in your notes).........I want you to stop trying to hold the others up while your still trying to swim because they will be much easier to save if you will climb in the boat first, the life boat is right beside you!!!!! You've got to get in the 'life boat', that is where you will find the inner peace that you need. How can guide your children, when all they can see is you flailing around in the water, struggling to keep you head up? Won't they sense that where you are is danger and they must find another route on their own? Find those scriptures, the simple ones that ground you in what you believe now, and when the circumstances arise that usually make you gasp for air, fill your mind with that scripture, teach them to your children so they can do the same thing. It works!!!! | ||
| Maryann |
In other words, I got to take care of myself first, so there will be strengh to draw on when someone else is drowning? Yeh, I agree. Nothing like two drowning people trying to save each other only to end up actually drowning each other. Grrrrrrrr, easier said than done :-( I had an awful dream before I took a trip with the kids to Ore. a couple years ago. We stopped and went swimming in a lake and both kids were drowning. They were far enough apart that I had to CHOOSE who to save. I could only save one. Had I tried to save both, all three of us would of drowned. It was one of the few dreams that still breaks me out in a sweat and feel pukey. It was un-believably real. Funny thing, we got into a situation in the Feather River in Ca. that had I not had that dream, I'm very sure I would have been in a position to make that choice for real. That dream caused me to use caution that I other wise would NOT have used! :-) Thank you for your encouragement and advice. Maryann | ||
| Steve |
Hi All, Just a quick thought. I noticed the 1x1x1=1 equation and thought of another very interesting example. It is known as the Triple-Point of Water. In one test tube scientists can bring the temperature down to such a low temperature that at one point in time, there actually exists H2O as a solid, a liquid, and a gas, ALL AT THE SAME TIME! It's really an amazing phenomenon. It goes beyond many other examples I've heard from nature. Steve | ||
| Maryann |
Lori, Your last few post's have smacked me pretty hard. Thank you for "stealing" my sleep :-). Try this out. I'm this "person" that knows in my heart that I have a wonderful, loving, caring God and Savior, but, my mind seems unable to accept it. He "seems" to be such a "personal" God to you and most of the others on the Forum. In other words, he is "your" friend. Somehow, to me, he is an illusive "thing". It's like he's not personal to me. I have heard teachers and preachers talk about a "personal" God many, many times. But it has only been here on the Forum that I have met "real live people" that know this "personal" God. Kinda like, "real for you but not real for me." Being in Redlands was such an experience for me. Everywhere I went, whether it was to a home, Church or even in a car, it was alive, "Spiritually alive." Coming home to the stench of death has me gagging. Picture this. I'm in a totally dark room on a BIG pile of books with a shotgun in hand and a big crate of shells handy and every time someone puts a light in the socket and turns it on I "blast" it away. I'm barefoot, so everytime I want to get up and walk out of this dark room, I cut my feet on the "thick" layer of glass on the floor. There is a pair of boots on my pile of "stuff" (I like that word) but I'm to stupid to put them on before I try to walk out! :-( My kids are in a corner of this room, scared to death. They can't see anything either. Everytime the light comes on, Mom blast it into oblivion. I suppose the next step is to start lacing on the boots and walk out into the light. (And NOT use the boots to kick butt.) Then pull the boards off all the windows and skylights and get a broom and sweep all the glass out, put "all the books on a shelf except for the Bible and put it at a big table by a big window and invite the kids out of the corner to sit with me in the light. Oh yeh, bury the shotgun. I go back and read alot of the post's and am somewhat disturbed by my tone and re-action to the life preservers all you guys have thrown my way. I don't regret anything I've posted because it is truly coming from deep inside. I guess when it comes down to it, I'm mad at God for marooning me without even "one LIVE like minded hand on my shoulder." I keep thinking of what Lydell told me (and I bit her head off for it...sorry!) about not needing to be around other Formers. That really brings into focus, the statement; "it's easier to be friends with God's friend's than to be friends with God." (I still want to be around like minded Formers :-). Hey, I think I should go put on some boots and pick up a broom. Maryann | ||
| Lynn W |
Maryann, it's not wrong for you to want the fellowship of good strong Christians, in fact, the Bible commends it. I've been extremely busy lately, but I still check in here from time to time. I ask the Lord to forgive me for not spending more time in prayer for you. I want to set time aside each day and earnestly pray that God will give you the desires of your heart as well as what you need to grow in Him. Also that He will give you a vision of Himself which will reveal Him in a very personal way to you. Perhaps we could all make this a matter of prayer until God brings some good, Christian women into Maryann's life for fellowship and discipling. | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, You already know God loves you. You already know that he is there for you. What it seems that you haven't learned is how to love Him back. (Am I understanding what you said correctly?) The way that you learn to love God back is to claim his promises. To 'inhale' them like I was talking about before, so when the situation arises (and it will) you simply 'exhale' the promise instead of your own human viewpoint. Do you follow? After you pass each 'test', as it comes, you begin to mature spiritually......and you begin to love the Giver (God) and not just the gift (the evidence of his love). And that's how he becomes real!!! That is how it has worked for me....... I'm relatively new at being able to consider God a friend and actually being able to say I love Him!!!!! Instead of just He loves me! I've still got some scar tissue (hardening of the heart) that was produced because of my past as an Adventist. You have to do a lot of rejecting of truth, in order to stay an Adventist and rejecting the truth creates a 'hardening of the heart', that's the real reason why, it's so hard to leave Adventism; its because your heart is hardened (it's covered with scar tissue) and scars don't disappear with one prayer, with one Bible study, with one confession. It may take years and years of Bible studies to heal you. That's why I continue telling you, get IN the lifeboat. As an infant in Christ you haven't the skills to help someone else. But God does have the skills, let him take care of it. He has a plan for your family. The situation that you are in and facing right now, is no surprise to God; he is not in a panic, trying to figure out how to work this situation out. He knew what was going to happen to you before the world was ever created. Your families dissillusionment is not bigger than God. "With God all things are possible" "cast all your cares upon Him for He careth for you". These are some promises I have written in a promise notebook that I keep by my bed. Start you a promise notebook and use them. Romans 8:28, I Thess. 5:18, I Pet. 5:8, Ps 37:4,5 , Luke 1:37, I John 1:9, John 10:28, Ps. 4:8, Deut. 31:6, Isaiah 26:3, Phil. 4:6,7 Ephesians tells us to put on the full armor of God, but it doesn't tell us to fight, it just tells us to stand up. (Put your Boots On, Put Down the Gun-your carrying the wrong equipment, remember this isn't a battle with flesh and blood, Grab your Promises and STAND UP, Crush the Enemy (the glass-I noticed its all already broken and you have the protection, if you've already put it on) Put the Light Bulb in and Stand In the Light so your Children can See You.) You already see all this......now get up and act upon it. The Truths do no good unless you can apply them. It's like having a closet full of clothes and standing outside the door to the closet, complaining that you have nothing to wear. You can't use the clothes because you are refusing to open the door, because when you do open the door you will realize that the clothes are all yours. All the clothes are there, beautiful clothes, with designer tags, custom made for you, how much longer are you going to stand outside before you open the door and claim what it is yours? Is that where you are Maryann? Don't be afraid.....you can not even imagine the peace that you will find.....even in the midst of the storm your family will create around you. Give him your battle. If you don't know how....then do this: every time you feel anxiety or when you feel that you have to deliver a essay on what you believe, when you are discouraged, whatever the dilemma, just repeat 1 Peter 5:7 over and over again. Don't let your situation control you (that's the human viewpoint), let scripture control the situation (that's divine viewpoint). I know that I wouldn't know you if I saw you on the street, but I want you to know that I love you and I care. And I want more than anything for you to find that peace that you so desire, but you won't obtain by figuring out all the errors and you won't get it by changing your family, you'll only get it by believing in God's promises. In our human state we always seem to think if we just had _______, we'd be happy. Israel thought if they had freedom they would be happy. Were they? Israel thought if they had water they would be happy. Were they? Israel thought if they could just get in the Promised Land they would be happy. Were they? they even thought that if they could go back to slavery they would be happy. They were never happy.....because.....they were only loving the evidence of God's love. They weren't loving the Giver. They couldn't love the Giver because they never did claim his promises. They failed every 'water' test he gave them. Too much water--Red Sea (failed) Wrong Kind of Water-bitter (failed) No Water (failed) and then the children got the same 'water' test that their parents had and they failed them, too. They didn't 'inhale' and 'exhale', they never learned to claim the promises. ------What's your water test? Who are your giants? God has already promised you victory------but you have to breathe out what you've breathed in to get the peace. Notice Israel failed every test, but God still supplied what he had promised. What he couldn't give them was inner peace, BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T USE IT. It was right there and they refused to take it!!! Well, I've probably said too much..........I really didn't intend to write this much........I just hope in some way this is usable information for you.......and I hope there are no major typo's, my mind works a whole lot fast than my fingers type and many times whole words get left out!!!! I love you, Maryann. Lori | ||
| BMorgan |
I love you too, Maryann. I really do. Lori. you hit the nail on the head. Even today at my bible study group, I felt the need to talk, talk, talk of my grief of the WASTED years being a SDA. Like Maryann for so many years I felt that God-Jesus was an illusive somebody who loved everybody but me. Maryann when it finally penetrates through the "scarred tissue" you will sing, shout, dance, and cry all at the same time. You may still feel unsure many many times but the Spir(IT) will be there. Do I make sense? May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. Hugs and hugs to you. BMorgan P.s. And He accepts you JUST the way you are, the personality He gave YOU. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lynn, Thank you for your specific prayers. I have wanted Christian fellowship and descipling for sometime now. Last year, I went after that rather agressively. It just never worked. They had no clue where I was and had no clue how to deal with my questions. It actually was more of a, "this is what our Church believes" sort of thing. The Church I go to is so large and is good but still a seeker church when you get down to it. It really is a wonderful Church, just the people that I tried to get with were not aquainted with "our" needs. Hi Lori, Welllllll! I had to change my clothes as there were "Lori Shoe Prints" all over the back side of me :-) Seriously, the fact that God loves you is awesome. Returning that love to an intangible God Being is hard to even comprehend. This "inhale" "exhale" thing is obviously where it starts. Thank you for that concept. As to the SDA scarring. I don't have that as an excuse as much as some do. For me, it's more a strong willed, egotistical, stubborn, hardheaded and mostly an independent attitude. I keep mentioning that Chuck Swindoll commented on the fact that God has the hardest time with the "independent" person. That is so true. You said, "As an infant in Christ you haven't the skills to help someone else." That also is true to a point. But that is part of my "panic". I have such a fire inside for the SDA people that I know I could just explode. As Jude put it across so well, yesterday I think, we got to provide a way of escape for these deluded people. By mutual agreement, I'm getting nailed on the nature of Christ by the next to best friend I have besides all you guys. I want to be able to show him that Jesus didn't have a sin nature! It's like I have 47 to many irons in the fire. "Put your boots on, put down the gun." That's hard! But that's what's got to happen. Do you suppose that God knows that I don't like designer clothes and would like to have a closet full of jeans and T-shirts? :-) Don't worry about what you say to me. The mark of a good friend is a friend that has the guts to say the tuff things. The Bible is such a big book that you don't really know where to start sometimes. I tend to go to Proverbs in the Chapt. that matches the date. It always amazes me at how on any given day, you get a word of advice that fits that day. I read the gospels too. I really found something neat in them Sunday that was almost like someone was turning the pages for me. Thank you who say you "love me". I'm still an infant enough to not say that on the Forum. I'll venture something like that e-mail though. Hi Morgan, You brought up something that crossed my path today. (I'm taking a break and reading a cool book this Christian gal wrote.) Guilt. There is "good" guilt and "bad" guilt. If my son informs me that he just MUST have an expensive name brand pair of jeans or else the guys will harass him and I don't buy them, this is "bad" guilt. If my son says, "Mom, you don't spend enough time with "me" is "good" guilt. I really related to that. If I don't spend enough time with my kids, it's good to have "good" guilt nagging at me, and hopefully it will effect change. I've been getting a twinge of "bad" guilt everytime I read any of Steve's post's. He was getting into Bible study about the time I was leaving God. He is so well read in many area's and knows his Bible very well too. I wasted those very same years, just trashed them :-( and I have been really beating myself up about it. That is "bad" guilt. Today, I need to go forward and not look back. Easier said than done! Also in this book I was reading, the gal was explaining about shopping at a clearance rack and described going up to the cashier. "Using an old fashioned system, she listed each piece of clothing on a carbon-backed receipt: one skirt, one blouse, one sweater. Then she totaled the debt I owed and, when I handed her my check, wrote, "Paid in full" on the receipt. I got a copy and so did she. My store debt was paid in full by the rendering of money. My sin debt was paid in full by the rendering of Christ's blood. But with the latter transaction, there was no receipt, no carbon-backed paper listing all the times I had fallen short. I have no record of my sins nor do I need one because God forgives, pays in full, and does not desire a receipt. He keeps no record of my wrongs. How unlike God I am." Y'all, isn't it sad that these people that "we SDAs" felt such pity for because they were so lost, have had the gospel in it's simplest form for so many years!? I'll try to get rested up for tomorrows flogging! :-( Just a joke Lori :-) <that is my personality, Morgan. Maryann |
