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Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope y'all don't mind me being so forward, but there are some things I think you can help me with. When I left SDAism--I should say when I found the Gospel--no, rather when the Gospel found me--there were some people that I have never met who were highly influential in clarifying many of the Gospel Truths to me. One of the foremost was Robert Brinsmead. Geoffrey Paxton's book, The Shaking of Adventism first got me thinking about reformed theology (as opposed to SDAism). Brinsmead's book, Judged by the Gospel for me was a first textbook on reformational theology vs. Catholicism. So powerful I found his presentation of the Gospel, so hungry was I for "Truth," that I devoured his materials from Verdict magazine, his taped sermons, and anything I could get my hands on. I attended a weekend seminar of his in the early 80's in Nashville, Tennessee.

I read an article of his in the later 80's, and I was quite confused. To me, it did not sound like the same man speaking. I don't remember exactly the content of the article, but as I recall, the premise was that there is a further blessing than just being justified with God; that we move on to a higher experience, which is sanctification, which, in my view, put him right back in the Roman camp.

Does anyone have any information about the path that Dr. Brinsmead has traveled? I know he did a 180 from the 60s to the 70s; from being an extreme Ellenologist, to believing in the reformed faith.

I would be grateful for any info that anyone could provide:

1. Is Dr. Brinsmead still actively evangelizing?

2. If so, what is his message?

3. If not, was there a significant change in his message between 1980 and 1990?

4. What about Geoffrey Paxton? He was an Anglican priest, I believe. Is he still evangelizing?

5. What became of the Brinsmead "coalition"--that is, Brinsmead and Verdict Publications, et al.?

Thanks in advance.
Grace and peace,
Patti
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Patti,

I don't have time to look for it right now, but I believe Adventist Today published an interview with Brinsmead a few years back, which I read. In it, if memory serves, he had gone into a more philosophically skeptical mode. He may have been deeply affected by the ongoing debate between modernism (rebuilding the Tower of Babel) and post-modernism (throwing brickbats at the construction crew) that's been going on for a couple of decades now. I'm not sure. But I am sure that you're right -- he's not the same person he was. I don't think we're here to judge him, though. And I believe he still has a lot to say that's worth hearing. From this, I guess you can see that I almost violently disagree with all the people who're getting their self-righteous "I told you so" jollies by sending him to hell right now.

I will say this, though: If you get too overly literalizing about your religion, WHATEVER your religion is, and you start to reify it and over objectify it and de-spiritualize it and compartmentalize it, then when the philosophical stones start landing -- from, say, the post-modernist camp -- and your glass house begins to crack, you do become liable to doing a Brinsmead. In that I certainly do disagree with him and what he did. Not so much because he imbibed too much of modernist and post-modernist philosophy. More because, in my humble opinion, at least -- he put TOO MUCH AUTHORITY IN HIS OWN ICONOCLASTIC IDEAS. Lesson: Stay humble under the sovereinty of God. Or, in the words of the Psalmist, "under the shadow of the Almighty!" Let God be God.

Nuf sed,

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

My family was quite close with Brindsmead years ago. To the best of my knowledge, Bob is alive and well. He is involved in tourism in Aust. It's funny you ask right now because I have our U.S. contacts number at my computer with the intention of getting ahold of Bob in the near future.

Paxton was also such a "shaking" good impact on so many of us. Last year, I dug out a set of his tapes and was listening to them at work and nearly crashed my loader when, on a tape, taped so many years ago, he made a reference to me. I grew to 9 times my size from the goose bumps on top of goose bumps. It just flooded me with so many memories so violently that I had to go to one of the "little green" job site houses to wipe my eyes and gain some composure. He, as far as I know is totally retired and relaxed.

Funny how the littlest things can impact you.

Maryann
David
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brimsmead has gone off the deep end. I don't believe that you can call him Christian anymore. There is a web-site somewhere. We too read his concise explanations of the Gospel, but he has abandoned the gospel now, more's the pity.
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We ran an in-depth story on Brinsmead in one of the last Adventist Today magazines that I worked on. David's right; he's not truly Christian anymore. He believes in "God", but it's a sort-of naturalistic theology. His trajectory over the years was unsettling to me. How he got from the position of atonement by grace that he held several years ago to where he is now gave me pause. I'm convinced that we all have to stay actively connected to God and ask him to reveal truth and protect us from deception.

I'm convinced that as former Adventists we are more vulnerable than many to certain types of deception. We grew up under a satan-induced veil of denial and falseness, and we have certain weak pointsósort-of like an alocholic always being more vulnerable to a relapse than someone who never drank.

I pray for us all!
Steve Pitcher
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Folks,

Colleen: I didn't realize you were involved with the Adventist Today as recently as 1999. I've dug out the May/June 1999 issue and found the articles you're referring to.

The main article is written by Larry Pahl, who also has a website on the Investigative Judgment. It is a (abbreviated I think) Master's thesis he wrote, refuting the doctrine. His website can be found at: http://members.aol.com/larrypahl/dan814-2.htm

(I've been in touch with Pahl as I've been asked to facilitate a group discussion regarding the Investigative Judgment in one of our pastor's homes this Thursday [4/20/00]. The pastor knows of my disbelief in this (and it looks like ALL) of our so called distinctives. I'll be referring to some of Pahl's work when I lead this discussion.)

The other (3/4 page) article is written by Raymond F. Cottrell. Although Cottrell says he agrees with Brinsmead, in that, "... some of our concepts related to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary need further study, clarification, and probably revision."

However, in the other article, Pahl shows Brinsmead for who he really is. In that article you can find the following:

[In response to a question by Pahl, regarding what Brinsmead would tell a young man, looking for guidance, asking about God, life, reality, Brinsmead responds.]

"God is a spirit and he is everywhere. He is the Spirit of life and he's not far from any one of us. Reading the Bible or some other book may help you, but God reveals himself, as a Spirit, by the things he has created, including human life.

"We can see the face of God. There is a spirit of life. If we surrender to it, obey it, we have the spirit that is for life. To help, to save, to restore, to be compassionate and promote life -- that is the spirit of God working in us and through us . . ."

"After I told Brinsmead that someone had asked me if he (Brinsmead) was saved, he laughed heartily. He ended our long interviews with this response: 'Here's the real point of the whole conversation: The question should not be, "Is he saved?' But, "Is he human?"

It's obvious that Brinsmead no longer thinks that the Bible is a special revelation. It seems that any other writing is just as valid for him.

It seems as though Brinsmead has indeed gone off the deep end into the same error that Kellogg, and E. J. Waggoner had gone into. (Waggoner's Pantheism is documented in Eric Claude Webster's Crosscurrents in Adventist Christology. Webster's son, John Webster, currently teaches theology at La Sierra University.)

Brinsmead's website, which has some Verdict articles is located at: http://www.quango.net/brinsmead/index.htm

I agree with Colleen that we Former's must be careful. Although there is a saying, "Once burned, twice shy," we must be careful of what we're shy of, and careful that we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth as revealed in God's Holy Word.

Steve
Steve Pitcher
Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2000 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought after my last posting. It may be that Kellogg did not go off into Pantheism. It is possible that the SDA church panned that off on us to cover up the fact that Kellogg was actually theologically orthodox, even though he differed from the church on some issues.

I'm not clear on all of the Kellogg issues, but according to someone I trust he was not a Pantheist.

Steve
Richard, Jr.
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, You might be on to something about the church and Kellogg. They must have done some very heavy spin control. They seemed to be very uncomfortable with him. They could not contain and control him. Richard
jtree
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do any of you realize that both Kellog and Ellen and James (her husband) are buried in a cemetary in Battle Creek, and they are buried less than 100 yards from each other. like neighbors, "across the street".
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only do I realize that, jtree, but I lived only a block or so away from that cemetary as a kid.

Dad pastored the Battle Creek Tab. Unbelievably embittered saints populated that town, tons of ex-adventists whose parents or grandparents had left the church in the wake of the Kellogg disfellowshipping.

I used to wander alone among the stones of that little cemetary. The White plot had a low concrete wall around it, broken by the roots of the unrepentant box elder and pine trees that grew around there with black squirrels playing hookie in their branches.

The plot itself had a concrete obelisk in its center which was surrounded by the stones of various family members. I used to wonder, of a crisp late-summer afternoon, how when Jesus came her stone would be cracked apart, her grave opened just like the pictures showed in Uncle Arthur's books.

We lived only a few houses away from the whole block occupied by Kellogg's tumble-down mansion. There was a jogging road that ran round the property inside the chain-link fence that was broken open in places. We kids used to wander around in the mansion and shiver as we told tales of his ghost arising angry out of the junk piles and order us off his property. The swimming pool was partly filled with sediment onto which abundant weeds were growing.

Ah, those were the days. My parents had were given a copy of the typewritten record of the pre-disfellowshipping meeting held in his mansion, when he hid his private secretary (it was a MAN, Allenette!) behind the floor-to-ceiling burgundy draperies to record every word spoken. I can't remember the names of the principles there, except for one, John Loughborough.

Some of the points made by him and his cohorts were absolutely rediculous -- needle-nosed, obfuscating, if you catch my drift. For Kellogg was no pantheist, and this, in retrospect, is no great matter.

Or is it?

Jude
Plain Patti
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is really no good place to post this, so I suppose I will retitle it, Where Am I Now? so that it will fit here. This is just a little story about my weekend.
==========================
Good morning!
It is great to be alive today!
However, I am not alive where I thought I would be alive today. I thought I would be alive in Houston. But I am not in Houston. I am alive in Boston.

(To catch those of you up who did not know I went anywhere, my half-sister flew me to Boston for her birthday. So I had a nice Weekend in New England--hmmm, sounds like a great name for a Barry Manilow song. Anyway, I had never been here before and I will definitely be back, if I ever manage to get out of here, that is! The city of Boston is beautiful! The architecture is amazing, and the churches are old and awesome!)

So I board my plane like a good little Texan, on time yesterday at 4:55. We sit on the plane for about 25 minutes before take-off. I have no idea why, but I have a suspicion it had something to do with what happened next. The plane moves to the runway and begins to rev up for take off. We had just started to move, when there was a very loud boom--sounded like a small explosion to me--the plane shook, and it sounded to me that something actually cracked. I was then saying to myself, NO! Don't take this thing in the air! when there was another "explosion" louder than the one before. People were just starting to panic, and there was a third. The plane began immediately to decelerate and I was thanking God that the pilot was aborting the take-off. We taxied back off the runway. The pilot came on the intercom and said, "Greetings, folks, this is your pilot speaking. We are getting a indicator on our gauges that says there is something abnormal in one of our engines." (DUH! There were 150 passengers who could have told him that! The stewardesses had already unlocked the emergency doors!) The first time he said we were just going to sit where we were until the mechanics could check the plane over. The next time he came on (about 15 minutes later) he siad that they had not made a decision yet, but they were trying to find a empty bay so that they could let us off while they worked on the plane. He also told us that AC was on the way. (There was no AC on the plane with the engines down.) They brought a portable AC--about the size of a railroad car--and hooked it up to the plane and cooled it down a bit. The stewardesses brought us all ice water. The third time the pilot came on, about a half hour later, he told us we were going to dock but not in a Northwest bay. So we would have to disembark and walk back to the ticket counter at Northwest where we would be helped.

They let us off the plane at 6:50 (2 hours after departure time). We went to stand in line at the Northwest ticket counter. Again. They made us wait until they had helped all of the other passengers, which made some people very angry. I can understand it; they were making sure that the others got to their flights on time, but it did seem to me that they should have taken us somewhere else, to a lounge maybe, and had others to help us, instead of making us stand in line again. It was 9:00 PM before I got through line. I was the next to last one.

They booked us at the Hilton for the night, which is nice. I buddied up with a gal from Louisiana and we got adjacent rooms. The accomodations were excellent, of course, but when we got outside the airport, you guessed it! We had to stand in line again for the hotel shuttle. There were two tours of students on the plane. Both eighth grade. And a lot of folks were pretty upset with them when they came out last, pushed their way through the crowd, walked farther down the street and caught the shuttle before it got to the stop. So we had to wait even longer. But I understand it completely, having worked with the little demons for years!

So finally a shuttle picks us up and then we get to the hotel. And guess what? We had to stand in line AGAIN to get a room assignment. FINALLY at 9:40 I opened the door to my room.

The airline gave us vouchers for dinner ($13.00), breakfast ($7.00) and phone ($5.00). They allowed us to combine the meal vouchers for a single meal, so we (Fran, my Cajun friend, and I) ate high on the hog last night. We started with clam chowder--it was out of this world! She had NY strip--I should have gotten that! It was fabulous. She couldn't eat it all so she split it with me. I had scrod--which sounds really crass, but it is actually baby cod according to the waitress. It was pretty good, but the NY strip was unbelievable.

We called it an early evening because Fran had to catch a 6:00 AM plane this morning. I was pretty tired myself after walking all over Boston for 3 days. I got a 1:30 flight home so that Ron could pick me up at 7:40 this evening and not miss any work. So Lord willing, and barring any more engine explosions, I will be in Memphis at about 4:00 and Houston about 7:40.

Feel free to say some fervent prayers at those times!
God bless!

Patti
Maryann
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2000 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, Patti,

You DIDN'T EAT clam chowder!! Yikes, I'm shocked. How could you? Ha Ha ;-) Funny thing, I haven't ever been able to eat clams, but shell fish, ham and bacon are de-scrumptious.

Sounds to me thumbing it home would have been safer. Glad you have your usual great attitude about things.

Now that you composed "Memories on Tarmac" so well, let's see you add equally to "Memory Lane".

Maryann
Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, I know you were joking, but just for the record:

Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything (including clam chowder!) but another man, whose faith is weak (!), eats only vegetables.

:) :) :) :)

Parenthetical comments and smilies inserted by writer. :)
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

I'm glad you've landed and all feathers seem in place.

Maryann
Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Maryann.

It was a feather-ruffling experience, fer sure!

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