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Lori
Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I ran across a little book that my parents had thrusts in my hands about 6 months ago, "My Covenant-Getting Ready to Meet Jesus". A week ago, I would have thrown it in the trash without a second thought. However, Lynn, had suggested I keep all the 'books' and mark them for contradictions, additions, etc......As it was a relatively small book, I decided to do that.

One subject in the book was: "Master Everything that the Bible Teaches About Death" with three suggestions as to how to study the subject. Here they are:

"1. Both the Old and the New Testament teach that death is an unconscious condition symbolically compared to sleep. Look up the word "sleep" in any concordance, and it will give you numerous references."

(Why would you look up the word sleep if you were studying the state of the dead? Shouldn't you look under death, dead, soul,ect.......)

"2. Death has no consciousness or mental activity. David declared that the dead do not praise God (Ps. 115:17)."

{This one threw me momentarily! This text says 'It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to silence;" At first I got my Bible Commentary to see if it showed the original interpretation of the word death. It stated that what was written, was an erroneous doctrine of OT believers concerning soul death. Obviously, the author of the commentary does not believe in the infallibility of Gods word. (I found out I need to get a different commentary!!!) But, after I read the entire chapter it seems to me that the dead in this chapter is refering to those who worshipped idols. And in comparing it to Ephesians 2:4, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ even when we were DEAD in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved." (Is this a proper comparison??) Aren't 'the dead' in Ps 115:17 and Eph. 2:4 speaking of the spiritually dead, not the physically dead? They have rejected Christ.)

"3. The third category contains just a handful of passages that seem to support the erroneous teaching of the existence of immortal soul. But remember, we must interpret them in light of the overwhelming biblical evidence that death is a condition of total unconsciousness."

(No scriptures references were given)

"In view of last-day deceptions, why is it so important to understand what the Bible says about death? "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions" GC p. 588 Accepting this statement at face value, we see why it is abundantly clear that we must understand the state of the dead "

What a trap!!!! Using these guidelines does nothing to help an Adventist find out if what they believe about soul death is truth!

What scriptures have ya'll found that have helped you in the adjustment from soul death to soul freedom?
Gary Mayo
Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you make a study of it, every major doctrine of Adventism is flawed in some way, or completely backwards. The state of the dead is just one piece of the mixed up puzzle we call Adventism.


The SDA-EGW Historical Society


.
Lynn W
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, Have you read my book entitled "Steps to Christ"? I'll print it for you.
Chapter 1
Page 1
Step 1
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31
The End

Hope you enjoyed it.


It's amazing that "Master Everything that the Bible Teaches About Death" is a step in getting ready to meet Christ.

1. You're right, looking up sleep is a distraction.

2. Bravo. You couldn't have hit it more squarely. To say that this means that the dead are spiritually dead, is to impose the presupposition of soul sleep into the text. You have to start with the assumption that when you die, you're dead, and totally ignore the promises of eternal life. Contrary to SDA teaching, when this body dies, that's when our life really begins. Since I won't be classed among the dead, I WILL be praising Him.

So was that by any chance an SDA Bible commentary?

3. What an easy cop-out. Just "interpret these scriptures in light of" our preconceived ideas.

"In view of last-day deceptions, why is it so important to understand what the Bible says about death? "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions" GC p. 588 Accepting this statement at face value, we see why it is abundantly clear that we must understand the state of the dead "

And where does Christ's atoning work come in?

"What scriptures have ya'll found that have helped you in the adjustment from soul death to soul freedom?"

Since it doesn't really matter, I don't worry about it.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn,

Your quote from EGW,

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions." GC p. 588.

set off a small alarm somewhere the the back of my head, though it's somewhat off subject. And that is this:

Yes, EGW did say here, and in many other places, that the Catholic and the Protestant worlds both attribute "sacredness" or holiness to Sunday. My question: Where?

I don't know of any specific or official documents in which Protestants or Catholics make that claim. To them Sunday is the Lord's day, the day on which Jesus Christ rose from the dead. That's the reason most Christians go to church on that day. But the day, Sunday, itself is not considered especially sacred or holy. And they certainly do not set the first day aside as a day on which, "Thou shalt not do any work."

So I don't know where EGW, and all Sabbatarian Adventists, get that notion. Do you?

Jude
Lynn W
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe Catholics do give sacredness to Sunday, but I don't have any quotes. The only Protestants I know of are the Church of Christ and an obscure offshoot of JW. If I've misrepresented either group, someone feel free to correct me. These are just from my experiences which were few.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read the Pope's 1998 encyclical on Sunday, the one that many SDAs thought was going to bring on time of trouble, and I don't remember his saying that Sunday had taken the place of the Sabbath and was sacred as 24 hours out of every week. If I have time, maybe I'll search for that document on the web -- I'm sure it's somewhere -- and get back to you. But I still don't know of any documentation anywhere that says Catholics believe one must physically rest from labor on Sunday.
Lynn W
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's some verses that prove that soul & spirit are more than just breath as the Adventists teach.

My Spirit shall not always strive with man - 6:3.
my soul may bless you - 27:4, 25. your soul may bless me - 27:19, 31.
his soul clave to Dinah 34:3. The soul of my son longs for your daughter 34:8.
Pharoahís spirit was troubled - 41:8.
Can we find such one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? - 41:38.
Nebuchadnezzar's spirit was troubled - Dan. 2:1.
We saw the anguish of his soul 42:21.
my soul, come not into their secret - 49:6.
Gary Mayo
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, I will share those with my wife, as that is a small hurtle for her to jump yet. It is amazing all the baggage we carried as SDA's. They might live longer, but their backs must be wore out.
Gary
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2000 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Lynn.
Maryann
Posted on Monday, April 17, 2000 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Guys,

I've been thinking again. I listen to "public radio" for most of my news and heard something that got me to remembering something that I've asked quite a few people ever since I was a kid. What's the deal these people that claim to have communion with the dead? Is it a trick?

The gist of the story was how so many of our boys and a few hundred thousand Vietnamese boys are still missing over there. One family decided after 25 years of looking to hire a psychic. This person did their thing and appeared to be talking in the voice of the missing son/bro. The MIA told exactly where he was buried through this psychic's voice. The family went there and found him and re-buried him near the family. Now, the claim was that 75% of the cases that the psychic's take on are solved? What do you think? Could it be the devil knows where the "boys" are buried and speaks though the psychic OR could this be an arguement for the soul not dying? I know this is "way off the wall", but if as EGW says the soul dies, including un-saved souls, then there could be no conmunication with the dead. If the soul does NOT die, then these psychics are free, through other than "Heavenly Beings", communicate with the souls of the un-saved?

I have really wondered about these things and would like some of y'alls learned opinions. (Try not to think the above is to "nutty" please!)

Maryann
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, The Bible is clear that we are not to go to psychics or mediums to contact the dead. That is strictly forbidden in both Testaments. Evil spirits do impersonate the dead, and that is one of the ways people are lured in the occult.

King Saul directly disobeyed God's command and cosulted the Witch of Endor to ask about his battle with David. God punished Saul by having him killed and turning his kingdom over to David. (see I Chron. 10)

The fact that we have living souls does not in any case mean that the living can contact the dead. The dead are with Jesus, not available to the living. The New Testament makes it clear that we will be reunited with each other at the resurrection, but our souls are in the care and keeping of Jesus until they're reunited with our resurrection bodies.
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Colleen,

Thanks for your reply. Just to make sure you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would never and have never EVEN CONSIDERED talking to, much less using the services of a psychic! That includes the astrologist too!

Somehow, I don't think I got my question across very well? I do now, since being de-SDAatized (another word in "my" dictionary) believe that the soul goes to Heaven. Your last sentence, "The N.T. makes it clear that we will be reunited with each other at the resurrection, but our souls are in the care and keeping of Jesus until they're reunited with our resurrection bodies." That, I believe of the "saved". I have just assumed that the un-saved were somewhere else? Did I assume wrong? Does God have both the saved and un-saved souls with him? PLEASE understand that I'm NOT trying to be trivial or stirring something! I'm dead serious! If the un-saved souls are not with God, they would have to be with the devil. If they are with the devil, would my question, (refering to only the un-saved) be a possibility? Could psychics communicate with the souls of the un-saved because they are with the devil, witches and mediums anyway. I truly believe that there is a "special unpleasent" thing for those that use this stuff. I'm "assuming" (showing my ignorance here) that evil spirits are the devils angels, not un-saved souls? If the evil spirits are simply impersonating the the un-saved, where is that in the Bible. I probably run across this type of stuff more than about anything at work and would like a few verses to help me sort it out. I would like to be able to make some appropriate comments at the appropriate time. It's funny how so many people involved in this stuff were raised in a Church and say they believe the Bible. I was raised in a Church too and look how ignorant I am as to where Bible grounds are.

I hope I made myself more clear this time.

Maryann
David
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My questions concerning the state of the dead are as follows:
1. Why do we need a resurrection of the body if we are already in eternal bliss at the moment of our deaths?

2. Why did Jesus rebuke the Sadducees about their misunderstanding of the nature of the resurrection? Luke 20;34: And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37: Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38: For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. How come he just didn't say "Those who believe on me go right to heaven when they die." Why did he use the word "attain" if we are already there when we die?. Why did He find it necessary to defend the doctrine of the resurrection?

3. Why all of the descriptive accounts of the resurrection event? In ICor. 15, practically the whole chapter, Paul is emphatic about the necessity of the resurrection and the clothing of the mortal with the immortal. In 1 Thess. 4:16 he reassured the Thessalonians that the resurrection will include the dead in Christ as well as those who are alive when Christ returns. Why his emphasis on the resurrection if we are "walking the streets of gold" when we die? Why do we come back for our bodies? What do we need them for?

4.How come, in the Revelation of John, are we given an initial description of heaven that is practically devoid of humanity save for 24 elders? How come, as his tour of heaven and the future progress and we do encounter praising and singing multitudes of humanity, do we find that their presence in heaven is always linked to an event; the coming out of the great tribulation.

5. How come, in Revelation 10:7, "..when the seventh angel begins to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed"? This mystery and this seventh and last trumpet are directly linked to Paul's description of the resurrection event in 1Cor15:57.

I just don't know how to reconcile this topic. I think of Jesus' last words on the cross, "Father, in to your hands I commend my spirit." Is this the example for us all? Physical death, like Jesus' only to reanimated in a spiritual body on the resurrection day because God has receive our lifeforce?

Just want to know.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2000 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi David,

Great questions. I'm still learning about what Scripture REALLY has to say about "the state of the dead." And I don't have time to delve into this subject too deeply right now, but I thank you for raising the questions. There's a lot for us all to learn.

I'll take a preliminary stab (the allusion is to the Scriptures being the "sword" of truth) or two at some of your questions, though:

1. Why do we need a resurrection of the body if we are already in eternal bliss at the moment of our deaths?

At present, I don't believe we do enter "eternal bliss at the moment of our deaths." I believe, rather -- based on the incident involving "the thief on the cross" -- that we enter "eternal bliss at the moment we accept and experience Jesus Christ as our personal Savior." Jesus told the thief that on that day, the original Good Friday, he would be with Christ "in paradise." He didn't say, AFTER YOU DIE TODAY "you will be with me in paradise," although we always seem to ASSUME that.

I further believe that the term "paradise" as Christ used it on Good Friday is identical to and indistinguishable from "the kingdom of heaven" as being a present reality for all who are in Christ as presented by Jesus some 57 times in the book of Matthew alone. Summary: Eternal bliss begins BEFORE, not after, you die if you are in Christ or a branch on the Vine. Branches on the Vine that is Jesus Christ may "sleep [go dormant]" but they DO NOT DIE!

2. "How come he just didn't say, "Those who believe on me go right to heaven when they die"?

Because those who believe on him go right to heaven BEFORE, not when or after, they die. There is only one kingdom of heaven, not two. Part of it exists THIS SIDE of the Second Coming and THIS SIDE of what we call "death." But Jesus says that those whom we call "the dead in Christ" are NOT DEAD AT ALL, not in the way we former Adventists have traditionally understood it, BUT ONLY SLEEPING!

3. Jesus says, "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

The Bible distinguishes between the first and the second deaths. When the born-again person dies once (according to the flesh), he does not stop being "in Christ" = "with Christ" = "in the kingdom of heaven" = "in paradise." He continues. This is the person who, like the angels, cannot die again. The "second death" is reserved for all those who are not "in Christ" = "with Christ" = "in the kingdom of heaven" = "in paradise."

4. "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage."

I don't know why "They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage."

Some have speculated by saying, "But it doesn't say there'll be no sexual intercourse!" Whether or not the angels have sex I have no idea. Remember, God has qualities or attributes other than those we traditionally talk about, such as, God is "love."

There are others as well, some traditionally unsung. One of these, and a personal favorite of mine is: "God is mystery." I also like to say, "Let God be God." In other words, We judge God only at our peril. For when we judge we always look on the outward appearance, whereas when God looks at us he looks in our heart and if he sees Jesus there he judges us exactly as he judges Jesus: sinless and fully sanctified.

Yes God does have an "outward side" or "a side turned in our direction." It's called Jesus Christ. But God also has a heart, an "inward side" of which we know absolutely nothing, except what he has been pleased to reveal unto us. Be humble, be very humble.

There are texts in the Bible for which I thank God, for they rightly limit our arrogant philosophizing. Examples: God is clothed in thick darkness. God creates evil. God sends "an evil spirit from God" in order to judge Saul. Let God be judge. We can be mocked. He cannot be. There are things we just have to take on faith and exercise a little trust that God has our best interests at heart.

5. "He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

Indeed so! For the "dead in Christ" are only dead "according to the flesh." According to the Spirit [Jesus], they are only sleeping. When the daughter of synagogue ruler Jairus died (according to the flesh), Jesus "went in and said to them, 'Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.'" Mark 5:39 NIV.

For Jesus knew, even if nobody else there did, that that precious child was a saved and fully sancitified and utterly perfect child, already in heaven, already in paradise, already a living branch on the Vine, and he was deeply moved to utter the truth: "The child is not dead but asleep."

Therefore, the child could not be dead. If she were dead, then God would not be her God. But God was indeed her God, for "God is not a God of the dead, but of the living" -- even if they are asleep.

Praise Jesus our God who could be so moved.

Well, David, but I'm fresh out of time. There is more, much more, to be said and learned from Scripture.

I guess my last response is this: Theologians of all religious stripes have had too much of a field day going off on their own tangents by violating the principle of the "mysteries of God."

For they have bound themselves up in human opinions and theories and positions and arguments and ego trips (nor would I dare mention such icons as Rick Rice or Fritz Guy) that have made them fair game -- sitting ducks -- for such critics as the post-modernists.

Let's retreat to a position of a bit more humility. That means, let God be mystery. Don't try to strip that away by having a human answer for everything. That, in my opinion, at least, is a form of mocking God. And God is NEVER mocked. Beware.

But, on the other hand, God is still love. So do not fear.

Bottom line: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own undertanding. In all they ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy path."

Agape,

Jude
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude, thank you for your insights. Good question, David.

I do not have the whole life after death situation figured outóI'm convinced that God intends for us not to fully understand it because he has given really incomplete descriptions of it.

I believe, however, that what he does want us to know is that when we accept him, we will never be separated from his love. Paul says, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present not the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Roomans 8:38, 39)

As an Adventist I understood this to mean that as my body would lie in the ground, the memory of me (my DNA or whatever God would use to re-activate my personality) was safe in his memory and heart.

The trouble with that understanding is that while it accounts for God's love holding onto us as a memory, it doesn't account for US not being separated from Him. The verse clearly says that nothingónot even deathówill be able to separate us from the love of God. Death involving soul sleep definitely separates us from that love. I can remember Adventists saying by way of comfort, "God cries with you in your loss; He is also separated from his friend and cannot communicate with him until the resurrection." That sounds like separation.

Also, in I Thessealonians 4:14, as Paul is describing the resurrection and the second coming, he says, "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." In other words, when Jesus comes again, he will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him. Those souls of the dead will be reunited with their resurrection bodies.

And then there is the statement by Paul that he would rather be with the Lord than to remain here. It is better by far, he says, to be with the Lord, but the people here still needed him.

About three years ago I was reading a book about the Holy Spirit. It's a book that's now out of print, but as I read it I began to realize that the Holy Spirit communicates to us through our own spirits. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, Paul says. I had always believed that my spirit was my "life force", my "breath". The Holy Spirit, I believed, communicated to me through my mind, my intellect.

I'm not suggesting our intellects are not involved with our communication with the Holy Spirit, but I Corinthians 1 and 2 make it really clear that intellectual knowledge is different from spiritual understanding. What seems wise to men, Paul says, is foolishness to God, and vice versa. When we become believers and receive the Holy Spirit, we "have the mind of Christ." (I Cor. 2:16) Spiritual understanding and knowledge comes to us via a route different from intellectual knowledge. That's why it's spiritually discerned, not intelectually.

I began to realize that spiritual discernment had to happen in some part of myself called a spirit. Why else would the Bible make such a point of talking about it? That spirit, I remember finally acknowledging to myself, was not in my noseóit was not my breath.

It began to make sense to me that the part of me that communicates and knows Jesus will never be parted from him. He clearly said that whoever comes to him will not die but will have eternal life. Soul sleep does not account for our not dying. We can play with semantics and call soul sleep "not really death", but the reality is that for however many months or years we are dead, our souls, if they're "asleep", are not with Jesus. The argument that we won't know anything; therefore it's as if we weren't separated is really rationalizing. If Jesus says we won't die, he means exactly that.

I'm not arguing that when we die we "go on living" in a diferent realm. I really don't know what exactly we'll do. But Paul seemed to think it was a state to be preferred to this earth. Whatever may or may not happen, I believe that the part of us that loves Jesus will go on knowing and loving him and being literally in his presence without a hiatus.

Seeing salvation as being given a living soul has helped me to understand this mystery a little better. When we accept Jesus and are literally born from above, we are made alive in Christ and given the indwelling Holy Spirit. That part of us that becomes spiritually alive is what survives death and stays connected to Jesus.

As for the unbelievbers, Maryann, I don't know exactly how God handles them. The Bible does talk about them being held in "hades" for the judgment. They will not be in the presence of Christ. Whether or not they will be aware of their surroundings, I'm not sure. I do think, however, that somethingótheir dead souls?óis held. If souls are simply memories in the mind of God, Richard (my husband) points out, then the resurrection would simply be a bunch of clones appearing.

I'll give you my take on I Cor. 15:57 and Rev. 10:7. I see I Cor. 15:57 being a statement that because of Jesus, we have victory over death. I don't see that as a statement of resurrection, although resurrection will be the ultimate finale. "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." I read this verse to say Jesus has ALREADY brought us from death to life. The law condemned us to death; we could not escape it. But Jesus has broken the power of sin and death, and we have victory over both through him when we accept his sacrifice.

The "mystery of God" which "will be accomplished" is not, I believe, the resurrection. Throughout the New Testament the mystery of God is defined as the fact that Jesus would come in a body, "was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory"(I Tim 3:16), and that salvation would be for both Jews and Gentiles. In the OT that reality was not revealed, but the prophets foretold it. Check out Eph. 1:9; 3:3-6, 9; Col 1:26, 27; 2:2.

Resting securely by faith,
Colleen
David
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 7:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When Dr Einstein was asked by a newspaper reporter to condensense his Theory of Relativity into layman's terms so that he could publish something intelligible for the masses, Einstein replied, "Suppose that I arranged for you to have the a date with the most charming and beautiful woman in the world but the date was only for one hour's time. That hour would see to you like a minute. Now suppose I arranged for you to sit on a hot stove for only one minute. That one minute would seem like an hour,"

Wben we look at the question of the state of the dead, it is ALWAYS imperative that we look at it from God's relativity. That means that as the eternal I AM there is no past present or future, just the eternal NOW. This helps me to understand the problems with our perspective. In my thinking, we are on the linear course of a time line that is moving towards the second coming unabated. It seems intermitable like Einstein's "hot stove" position. But the fact of the matter is that when God created, He also completed. He is outside of the law of time line and it confinements and he sees all "times" and things. Hence when a believer dies, he is swept by angels to the cloud of Christ's appearing and is ever with the Lord. It is only from our perspective that the dead exist in their coffin or in the grave. The actual moment of resurrection for him was the nano second between his last breath in this life and the impartation of the first breath of his resurrection life.

My Father-in-law died in my arms after about 35 hot stove minute/hours of CPR two weeks ago. I was devastated and the trama of that event has kept me awake. But just this past monday, God revealed something to me. It was just a thought like this one, "Well, Dave, you have seen the birth of your sons first hand and you have now witnessed the death of your Father-in-law firsthand..." I pondered this for a while, like for maybe two or three hours. My conclusion: I witnessed in the birth of my sons and the death of my Father-in-law the same thing, life in a new form. Their first breaths of temporal existence and his last, but thanks to God the transition was seamless and I am now at peace.

Yes, I know that from my limited perspective and relativity that my father-in-law is dead and buried, but yes I know that from his and God's perspective that he is now with God, because God is the eternal NOW. I choose to rise above the limited, temporal understanding of death. I choose to accept the truths that both positions have to offer because, in the final analysis, God is God and I am His in Christ and indeed, "nothing can separate us from the love of God through His Son, Jesus Christ."

I think that Einstein got his idea from Jesus' words and Paul's epistles.
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Einstein was a Christian. Funny how many "Greats" in the history of our world were Christians yet modern day kids generally are NOT taught that. In fact, they are taught just the opposite!

David, you have presented some thought provoking post.

Thank you........Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone,

This is turning into a great Discussion. I hope to hear from people who don't speak up much! Colleen and David, fantastic posts! I want to mix it up with you some more, when I have more time.

Maryann, Einstein wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew by birth and culture and probably instruction "at his mother's knee." But he did not believe in a personal God. He was fond of saying "the good Lord" when referring to the wonders of the universe -- such as general relativity -- and believed in some form of God, but nothing personal.

In fact, he wrote a book, which I read long ago, called "Cosmic Religion," which describes a sort of Great Mystery akin to the Native American Great Spirit. But he was not a pantheist or an animist. He did believe in "something" out there that is totally other than our highest and best ideas.

St. Anselm said, "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived." To this Einstein would probably have replied, "God is GREATER than that than which nothing greater conceived."

Bright dude, that Einstein.

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the Dude, Jude is bright too. Thank you for the QUICK correction. Okay, Einstein wasnít a Christian as such (or any such). My re-memory didnít serve me to well did it? But, he wasnít an atheist as he is portrayed by some in the circles I am in.

Now, I have a question :-( We all, in this discussion, understand what a Christian is. We all understand what an atheist is. We all understand what an agnostic is. Thank you Jude for making the opportunity for me to bring this up AGAIN, only I think Iíll be able to get my thought/question across this time. If youíll go back and look at the 2nd post I made in the thread, EGW and Politics (4-5-2000, 11:28), youíll see that I broached this question. Soooo, if Einstein wasnít an agnostic nor an atheist and because he didnít believe in the total, finished work of Christ on the cross, he was not a Christian. What was he? A non-christian Christian? Stop shaking your head, Iím serious :-) There is persecution of all the different faiths that make a ìclaimî to Christianity? What of it? They are not agnostic or atheist! So what are they? Non-christian Christian too? The SDA Church is raising such a federal case over Christian leaders in our country, like Chuck Colson etc praying with and trying to unite the Christians world wide. I consider Chuck Colson a Christian. He has the gospel and he seriously spreads it around. Isnít this what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 1 when he asked, ìIs Christ divided?î This is a very troubling issue to me. Are we painting hard and fast lines? Does God come to people or different faiths where they are? Please come back with some discussion on this in the same concerned manner that I feel.

I really have to go get some work done.

Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2000 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JESUS ON THE ìSTATE OF THE DEADî

Colleen and David, Your posts have ignited me. Question: What did Jesus teach about the state of the dead? Letís start with the story of Lazarus. First text, John 11:17-27 NIV:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

ìLord, Martha said to Jesus, ìif you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.î

Jesus said to her, ìYour brother will rise again.î

Martha answered, ìI know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.î

Jesus said to her, ìI am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?î

ìYes, Lord,î she told him, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.î
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now, as an SDA I always stumbled over Jesus words, ìHe who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.î They just didnít make sense. The reason: My eyes were veiled over to the great truth that salvation, sanctification, perfection, eternal life and citizenship in the kingdom of heaven here an now were all instantaneous benefits of recognizing the sacrifice-resurrection-ascension of Jesus Christ occurring 20 centuries ago!

I was walking in darkness. Then a Great Light dawned, illuminating the whole earth with his glory. And just as it hit Saul/Paul on the Road to Damascus and knocked him flat, it hit me and knocked me flat. And just as the scales fell from his eyes, they fell from mine too.

Hey! I thought. If I Iím already in heaven/paradise, what will happen to me when I die? Well, I devoured lots of Scripture. And among them was the story of Lazarus: Here was a man who was already in heaven/paradise because he had recognized his salvation in Christ. And yet he died physically. Here was an object lesson for me and for us all.

Satan could look at Lazarus and say to Jesus, ìLook! You put people into your heaven/paradise and they STILL DIE! Ha, ha, ha. Your kingdom is a joke!î

But God is never mocked, not even by Satan, and since Jesus is God, Jesus utterly destroyed Satanís argument by resurrecting Lazarus.

Hereís the reason Jesus could say, ìWhoever lives and believes in me will never die:î Lazarus was only physically dead; he was not spiritually dead. Yes, it is a great mystery. And we can never prove it scientifically, just as we cannot prove scientifically that Jesus himself rose from the dead. We can only prove it by faith.

And as the rest of the chapter of John 11 makes clear, Jesus did resurrect Lazarus bodily. This is our scriptural indication or pre-figuration that Jesus would be resurrected bodily from the dead. And that resurrection, Jesusí resurrection, is our scriptural indication or pre-figuration that we too will be resurrected bodily from the dead.

So if you want to learn about the state of the dead, learn here. Learn that Scripture distinguishes between that state of ìthe dead in Christî from ìthe dead in Satan.î The ìdead in Christî are only asleep and they are still spiritually alive, whereas the ìdead in Satanî are not asleep and are still spiritually dead. What that has to do with the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul I donít know, and quite frankly, I donít really care all that much.

More to come,

Jude

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