| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
STATE OF THE LIVING: We SAY eternal life begins now, but do we BELIEVE eternal life begins now? Seventh-day Adventists generally believe that eternal life begins at the end of this earthly life. Some Evangelical SDAs believe that eternal life begins now, but they have little clue as to what that means. For they recite Ecclesiastes 9:5, ěThe living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,î to prove that when a Christian dies he is unconscious, senseless, ědead as a door nail,î and no longer aware or a sentient being in any sense. But they ignore the context, which makes clear that this dead state relates to the living world here and now all around us: ěThey have no further reward [HERE and NOW], and even the memory of them [HERE and NOW] is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished [from the HERE and NOW]; never again will they have a part in anything that happens [HERE and NOW] under the sun." The context makes it obvious that the ěTeacher, son of David, king in Jerusalemî (Ecclesiastes 1:1) is not writing here about the state of the ědead in Christî or ěthose who have fallen asleepî (1 Thessalonians 4:15). For the subjects of this passage ěhave no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.î The ědead in Christî DO have ěfurther reward.î And their memory is certainly NOT forgotten by God. Sorry, my friends the Adventists, but you canít use this text to prove your theological points about ěthe state of the deadî who await bodily resurrection at the sound of the trump of the archangel. Its own context wonít permit it. But you can use John 6:50-51 NIV: ěHere is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.î Now, how can you say that those who are saved-in-Christ, sanctified-in-Christ, perfect-in-Christ citizens of the kingdom of heaven on earth here and now ěknow not any thingî just because they have ěfallen asleep in Christî (1 Corinthians 15:18)? Such a position makes no scriptural sense. Hereís a position that does make scriptural sense (John 4:10-13 NIV): ěJesus answered her [Samaritan woman at her village well], ëIf you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.î ěSir,î the woman said, ěyou have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" Jesus answered, ěEveryone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.î There is much about ěthe state of the deadî that is mysterious, and rightly so. Hear Jesus (in Luke 16:19-31 NIV): A selfish-rich man died and was buried ěin hell.î From there, suffering ětormentî and ěagony,î he cried out to ěfather Abrahamî, ěIf someone from the dead [meaning the righteous Lazarus] goes to them [his five selfish-rich surviving brothers], they will repent.î But father Abraham ěsaid to them, ëIf they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.íî Summary: Mystery compounds upon mystery. 1. The Teacher in Ecclesiastes tells us that ěthe dead know not anything.î And yet the context indicates that this ěknow-nothingnessî relates only to the worldly realm. He does not say they ěknow not anythingî relative to the spiritual realm. 2. Jesus tells a parable portraying lively [no pun intended] conversation going on among the dead, both righteous and unrighteous. 3. Several texts equate the ědead in Christî to those who have ěfallen asleep in Christ.î 4. Jesus is adamant that those who partake of the bread of life (himself) and drink the water of life (himself) will never die spiritually. 5. Jesus makes a number examples out of some who have died physically -- but not spiritually -- by resurrecting them from the dead. 6. Jesus himself rises from the dead. We canít prove this scientifically. Nor would we want to. For by so doing we would make faith irrelevant. And without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). I think at least a partial answer can emerge by recognizing that there is a package -- a Christmas gift, really ń that comes to us when we recognize and accept what Christ has done for us 20 centuries ago: He has given each one of us acquittal, salvation, sanctification, perfection, citizenship in the kingdom of heaven here and now, and eternal life here and now. Nor does it ěgo awayî into nothingness when we die physically and await physical resurrection. We may not know much about ěthe state of the dead.î But we know all we need to about ěthe state of the living.î What do you think? By the Word which is Christ Jesus, Jude | ||
| Lori |
Well, I just have something 'simple' to add. I have troubled over this truth, too. And the basic thing I have come to lately is: How can something be eternal, if it going to cease at some point and then be made alive again at a later point. The very essence of the words eternal life implies that it does not cease. I Thess. 3:13, " May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus COMES WITH ALL HIS HOLY ONES" He is coming WITH his holy ones???? Where did they come from? 1Thess. 4:14" We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God WILL BRING WITH JESUS those who have fallen asleep in him" Again it seems to say that believers will COME WITH JESUS, if they are coming with him, they had to of previously arrived before his return. I'll write more later, have to go for now..... | ||
| George |
What exactly is the "soul"? Is it the breath of life as with Adam in Genesis? Or is it our thoughts which are electro/chemical impulses stored in the organ called the brain? What is the "spirit"? Is it the mysterious physialogical "thing" that makes us alive as compared to dead? Is it the electrical impulses that the body runs on? Or is it simply something implanted in us by God that has nothing to do with physiology? If we are to figure out what happens to the soul we need to decide what the soul actually is. Lets have a thoughtful discussion on this. George | ||
| Allenette |
Anybody on here ever heard the fable of the blind men and the elephant? Just in case not, here's the short version: blind men are attempting to describe an elephant, one feels the elephant's tail and says, oh yes, the elephant is like a snake; one stands beside the elephant, rubbing the hide and says, oh yes, the elephant is like a thick piece of papyrus, one feels the trunk and says, oh yes, the elephant is like a thick tree trunk. Guess what--->they are ALL right, and.....ALL wrong. When ANYONE one here figures out THE SOUL, SPIRIT, BREATH OF LIFE, vs. electro-chemical reactions in the brain, etc etc etc....PLEASE notify your nearest Emergency Room physician, ok? So they can accomodatingly re-calibrate their medical equipment. :-) Back to the Bahamas for me :-) (I wish) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Allenette, Good to have your presence pop up. I've been thinking about you in the last week. Bahamas sounds like a good choice. Leave it to George to get something "interesting" going of this nature. I'm really interested in seeing what kind of discussion happens. Actually, that "is" a good question. I certainly, much to my shame, can not define soul. Maryann | ||
| David |
Lori, I would like to address your question concerning where the "holy ones" come from when Jesus returns. Let me preface my comments with the assertion that your observation is both correct, and, paradoxically, it is incorrect. Let me explain. It is a sad truth that today the church is caught up in many speculations concerning the second coming of Jesus. One need look no further than the shelves of the bookstore to ascertain that the market is lucrative and the demand is great for an explanation concerning this event. In fact, the church, in my opinion, has reached the fulfillment of Paul's prophesy to Timothy that in the last days the church will be more concerned with "fables" or fictions than the truth as it is revealed in the Scriptures. When you correctly note that the Bible says that He will "return with His holy ones", the text is referring to His second coming. But how did the "holy ones" get to be with Him in the first place? There is a preceeding event; the sign of the Son of Man, that is described in Acts 1 and Revelation 1:7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. We read and see in Revelation chapter,14:14-16 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16: And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. In the following verses we see the harvest of the wicked, but that harvest is not at the same time as the harvest of the righteous described for us here. You will note that Jesus is described as being seated upon a cloud with a crown upon His head, a description that is in total contrast to His description at the time of His second coming which commences with the pouring out of the seventh and last vial of the seven last plagues upon the earth. In Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. This is the event that you correctly point out, but can you see the differences in the timing between the two? The first is the resurrection event and the gathering of the righteous harvest into the heavenly barn. The second is the return of Jesus to this earth to exact judgement and tread the grapes of wrath. These two events are separated by the outpouring of the seven last plagues. At the sound of the seventh and last trumpet of God, the mystery of God will be completed. The resurrection/rapture event will take place and those who remain upon the earth will be exterminated when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom. This event also represents the fulfillment of the parable of the Ten virgins when five are prepared to attend the Bridegroom and the five foolish are shut out. It also represents a fulfillment of the endtime parable about the harvests and how the angels go through the four quarters of the earth and gather together those in Christ and deliver them to Him upon His cloud. The rest are bound for the burning. It is the appearing of Christ that will mark our day of final victory over this world. That is the day when the sons of God will be revealed to the world and the covering of this mortal flesh will dissolve and our spiritual bodies will be revealed. So how does this fit in with our discussion about the state of the dead? From our relative position at this particular time, we have not arrived there. We groan and earnestly long for this moment because it is our vindication. It is for us a future event. From God's perspective and from that of the dead in Christ, this moment is a present reality. They have heard the trumpet and are ushered by the harvesting angels to the cloud of Jesus to receive their crowns. So, what illustration can I offer to you that will make the differing perspectives more understandable? Suppose we are seated across from one another at a table. There is a coin, say a fifty cent piece facing us. I see the front of the coin, you the obverse. On my side, I see John Kennedy in profile; the inscription "In God We Trust; the date; the mint mark; the inscription "Liberty"; and the initials of the designer. On your side, you observe the national seal surrounded by fifty stars; the inscriptions "The United States of America" and "Half Dollar". The same fifty cent piece but from opposite viewpoints. So it is with the state of the dead. May God bless us with increased revelation concerning all of the mysteries of His grace towards us. | ||
| George |
Hi everyone, If it is pointless for a blind man to try to figure out what an elephant looks like, it is just as pointless for him to try to figure out where it is going. If you can't define what it is, how can you decide with any degree of accuracy where it is going. Electrical and chemical things disapate when they stop, but if it is a misterious thing that God gives us, how could we possibly know where it goes. George | ||
| Lori |
David, I probably shouldn't have posted last night, I didn't have time to finish and you are right the one text did relate to the dead and the other did not. Thanks for the clarification. In my haste to get across the point, that there would be people already in the prescense of God prior to the second coming, I neglected to stay with the topic of the state of the dead. The other things I was going to mention seem to be related to the state of the dead.........Phil. 1:23,24 "I desire to depart and be with Christ,which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." and 2 Cor. 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know but God knows---was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell." (Isn't this text thought to be Paul speaking about him self when he was stoned and left for dead? --Acts 14:19---Sounds alot like what people call a near death experience) Lastly, the Rich man and Lazarus--Luke 16:22-31, "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' He answered, 'Then I beg you , father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 'No father Abraham', he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' Do these texts support continuation of life after physical death? | ||
| David |
Lori, in answer to your question, I will respond by saying that I believe that we are innocently talking by each other. I know that I have been guilty of doing this in the past when my tunnel vision takes over and I may not present my position as clearly as I would have hoped. The point that I truly wanted to make is this one: It just doesn't matter about the state of the dead as long as their position was in Christ while they were physically alive. To ponder the eternal is difficult for us finite beings. But to really understand the position of the believer in Christ, I would recommend that you re-read what Jude has written concerning the FACT of our present eternal life and our position in Christ and of the fact that we are now seated with HIm in the heavenly places even though we muddle through this timeframe to the best of our abilities and the grace of God. When every believer KNOWS that His salvation is a done deal and that it is his responsiblity to hang on to Jesus, the state of the dead is a moot point indeed. In fact the eternal truth of nothing being able to separate us from the love of Jesus becomes even more profound. I hope that this has helped you understand my position better. Now about the rich man and Lazarus: Lori, this is a parable that Jesus pointedly directed to the Pharisees to show them that they were truly a heartless bunch and that they were hellbound. You will notice that poor Lazarus lay in his wounded and unsheltered position at the very door way of the proud Pharisee's residence; a position whereby the rich man had to literally step over him each time he left or entered his home. And he did nothing to help poor Lazarus. The Pharisees believed that ANYBODY who was poor or sick was a sinner suffering the penalty of their sin and therefore they excused themselves from helping the poor and the sick because God was judging them and they had better not interfere with God's judgement. Sounds sorta like the cold comfort offered to Job by his friends, doesn't it? Imagine the surprise and anger that this group of Pharisees must have felt when Jesus said that it was poor Lazarus who made it to "the bossom of Abraham" while the rich Pharisee ended up in the flames. The point was that the Pharisees were supposed to help the sick and the poor, not condemn or ignore them. They thought that wealth, power and honor was a sign of God's favor towards them, and here, in this parable, Jesus says that those things mean nothing. The second thing to notice about the parable is that the rich man begs "Father Abraham" for a cooling taste of water from Lazarus' finger, but Abraham reminds him that it is not possible for Lazarus to do what has been requested because of the great gulf between them. In otherwords, unless you repent, you will be separated from eternal life. The rich man then asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers to testify so that they will not end up like him. The answer was that if they would not listen to Moses and the Prophets, that even a resurrection would not convince them. This is exactly what happened. When Jesus raise the real Lazarus to life, the Pharisees began to plot against Him to kill Him. The Pharisees were very proud their lineage to Abraham, yet Jesus told then that not everybody born in the line of Abraham would be saved, rather those who did the works of Abraham would be saved. That work was faith in God, the very thing that the Pharisees lacked. Salvation is not about material wealth, position, honor from men or about who your daddy was. It is about repentance, mercy and following Jesus, not tradition. So Jesus did a pretty good job of showing them the error of their belief. Is this parable a true record of what the Scriptures say about heaven? No, it is just story designed to tell a specific audience in language that they will understand the error of their position. We cannot take a parable and build a doctrine of heaven or hell or the state of the death around it. It would be just as unreasonable for us to take the parable of the sower literally and scatter ourn precious garden seed helter skelter on unprepared ground. The parable is not about farming or agronomy 101, it is about how God reveals the plan of salvation to the world and the world's response to Him. | ||
| Bruce H |
David Did not the concept of the state of the dead with soul sleep come from the Adventist to cover up the lies and mistakes that the SDA church had made in saying that God was coming in 1843 then 1844 followed by it was when Christ went into the most Holy place to judge people in 1844. You had people saying well I thought you went right to heaven and the High and mighty SDA's who do not want to look bad or they did not like the person challenging them on this point came up with the concept of soul sleep. See you have a problem if Grandpa went to heaven and we see he is a mark of the beast guy well what is God going to do kick him out of heaven, no he was asleep. Bruce | ||
| Bruce H |
George Here is somthing on the Body soul and spirit. BODY - Soma, carnal 1 Cor 3:1-3. The flesh or body is what touches the Material world through the five sences of sight, smell, hearing, taste, touch. Soul - Psyche, natural 1 Cor 2:14. The soul uses the "Five Senses" of the body as its agents in the exploration of the phenomena of matter and historical research, and for its self expression and communion with the outside world. The Gates to the soul are Imagination, Conscience, Memory, Reason, and the Affections. Spirit - Pneuma, spiritual 1 cor 2:1. The Spirit receives impressions of outward and material things through the soul and Body. The Sense Faculities of the spirit are the Spiritual faculties of Faith, Hope, Reverence, Prayer, and Worship. I found this I hope it will Help. Bruce | ||
| Bruce H |
David I do not see that you can say (From the Bible) that the story of lazerus is a parable. Lori Good point. | ||
| Timo K |
Hi all, Since SDA-ground is more and more shaky, I have tried to study what evangelical conditionalist think about "state of the dead". At the moment there is a growing number of evangelical scolars, who believe in "soul sleep". To my satisfaction, they have proved that "soul sleep" is not a cultic doctrine as many traditional evangelical scolars try to tell. In the month of May a new book is coming out of print called "Two Views of Hell: A Biblical and Theological Dialogue"; by InterVarsity Press. One of the writers (conditionalist) is Edward Fudge, and the other writer is Robert Peterson (traditionalist). I have almost finished reading Edward Fudges book "The FIRE that CONSUMES" and would like to recommend that book. This book can be ordered by calling toll-free number 1-800-632-6657 (Moyer's family Bookstore, Portland, Oregon). There is also a Canadian Professor of theology at McMaster Divinity College, who has written about conditionalism. He is baptist. He is also a co-writer in the book "FOUR VIEWS OF HELL". Those who are "shaking with adventist" could also read what evangelical conditionalist write. There might be a Gospel aspect of "the state of the dead", that have been overlooked by adventist. In Fudges case it is specially interseted, since he was a former traditionalist. He is a very profoud writer, who uses about 1000 texts from the scripture in his study. Some of the material, in my opinion, is dry reading and too detailed, but as a whole I regard the book as a classic for the conditional view. Late F.F. Bruce wrote forward to Fudges book, where he also stated that Bible is not all too clear about after death stuff. I include state of the dead with hell discussion, even though it is not the same thing. F.F.Bruce wrote: "While this subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr Fudge present here." According to conditionalist writers, that I have read, the conditionalistic view is gaining ground among evangelicals. This should also be noted. If "soul sleep" is cultic, we still need to know the arguments, so we can warn evangelicals. In my opinion the whole evangelical conditionalist view is Biblical. I am still studing though. For further study, here is some addresses: Edwfudge@aol.com http://geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5862/hell2.html www.sovgrace.org (Calvinistic Sovereign Grace Fellowship timo | ||
| David |
Thank you Timo for providing resources for our discussion. You know what really amazes me about state of the dead discussions? It is the almost shrill denial that soul sleep is even considered as a possibilty. You would think that it was purely an Adventist device to cover up the errors of SDA church doctrine. I even saw a tape of Dale Ratzliff saying that the state of the dead is the Adventist defense of the IJ. This is not true and in fact trivializes the topic. Conditionalism has been around since the Bible was being written. This subject has been the source of legimate debate and Bible scholarship for centuries. Let each believe as he will, for in my opinion the state of the dead is not the issue like the SDA have made it out to be. The real issue is whether or not you have repented and been born again. Has Jesus found His way into your willing heart? Are you fully connect to Him in a daily, thriving relationship? The state of the living, then is more important. Lori, I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree whether or not the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal depiction of heaven and hell. I find it extreme, in my thinking, to view myself resurrected to "Abraham's bosom" when in fact the Bible says that we will be resurrected to meet Jesus in the air. I find it an extreme position to say that we, in that place, will be able to view those in torment in hell. This is a really a "comforting doctrine" for all of us who have unsaved relatives on our hearts. To think that I could watch from heaven the torments of my loved ones for eternity from heaven, places heaven on the same level as hell where sin is never wiped out and everybody is punished; some because they did not believe and others because they did believe but could not convince their loved ones to believe. How does God go about wiping away all of those tears of all of His saints if this parable is literal? It is not possible for compassionate human beings to know in their hearts that their unsaved love ones have reserved for them a place of eternal torment to ponder the error of their ways in the most dispicable conditions, but that is what your position says will happen. I rather perfer to accept that God is merciful, even to the unsaved sinners and the they will be put out of existence. In Malachi we are told that the wicked will be ashes under our feet. So be it. I can heal from that and my tears can be wiped away and sin and death can be swallowed up in victory. If what you believe is true, however, sin will never see and end and God is the ultimate despot. No thanks. | ||
| Richard, Jr. |
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus as found in Luke 16: 19-31, appears on the surface to present a puzzling paradox. We need to ask the question, " How do we intrepet Jesus' parables? Or,"is it even a parable?" In my opinion, it seems to be a parable. As I re-read this section two things stood out in my mind. Jesus forces us to take a hard look at our state of living. How are we treating our neighbor? And secondly, due to some of His listeners hardness of hearts, the law and the prophets weren't doing them much good, why would sending them a ressurrected person help? | ||
| Bruce H |
David Could you back up your statment. ---- I even saw a tape of Dale Ratzliff saying that the state of the dead is the Adventist defense of the IJ. This is not true and in fact trivializes the topic. ----- Could you show us that this is not true? ----bject has been the source of legimate debate and Bible scholarship for centuries. Let each believe as he will, for in my opinion the state of the dead is not the issue like the SDA have made it out to be. The real issue is whether or not you have repented and been born again. Has Jesus found His way into your willing heart? Are you fully connect to Him in a daily, thriving relationship? The state of the living, then is more important.----- Amen I agree. But later on in you article you seem to think differently. -----To think that I could watch from heaven the torments of my loved ones for eternity from heaven, places heaven on the same level as hell where sin is never wiped out and everybody is punished; some because they did not believe and others because they did believe but could not convince their loved ones to believe.--- You have to remember that this event (Lazerus) toke place before Jesus died and then redemmed those from the pit or Hell. It was not untill after Jesus death did he bring those belivers with him, so the condition Jesus is talking about is before his death, I Peter 3:18-22, 4:1-6. -----How does God go about wiping away all of those tears of all of His saints if this parable is literal?---- Same answer as above. ----- It is not possible for compassionate human beings to know in their hearts that their unsaved love ones have reserved for them a place of eternal torment to ponder the error of their ways in the most dispicable conditions, but that is what your position says will happen. I rather perfer to accept that God is merciful, even to the unsaved sinners and the they will be put out of existence.----- Here is the problem. It sound to me like you are judging God (Maxwell) or saying if God is a God that would burn or punish people for eternity then he is not a loving God. Another way I see this is you are making an Idol, you are saying I will only worship a God that fits the image of a God of love the way I see it. I am not trying to prove if there is an eternal Hell or not but I do see a REAL DANGER in saying these kind of statments because they can not be supported by the word of God. Please use the Bible to support your points. ----some because they did not believe and others because they did believe but could not convince their loved ones to believe.--- We cannot convince our Loved ones ever to believe. People eyes are opened by Jesus and him alone, Jesus may use us and our prayers but it is his WORK not our remember the Sabbath you shall do no work. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Timo K |
David, It is true that conditionalism and "soul sleep" was not invented by adventist. Most of the very early "church fathers" held the conditionalistic view. The idea of "immortal soul" came to cristianity from hellenism. Plato was the main architect of the idea. Since English is not my mother language, I will copy from Babu G. Ranganathan (former hindu, now a baptist since 25 years) he also was a traditionalist before and is now a conditionalist. This is from the web-site I did send to you before: "What most people believe about hell is influenced very much by what they believe about the nature of the human soul. The ancient Greeks, Hindus, Egyptians, Babylonians, and others believed that the human soul is immortal and must live on forever even after the body dies and dissolves into dust. This is becouse many of the ancient believers believed that human soul was intrinsically divine, having the nature of deity, and so it could not die. This philosophy of the universal immortality of the human soul was a cardinal teaching of the ancient Greeks and strongly influenced early Christian thought on the nature of the human soul. Although early Christians rejected the belief that the soul was of divine essense or deity many eventually compromised with Greek philosophy by accepting the idea that all humans have a soul that is immortal. The very early Christian Fathers, however, such as Clement of Rome, Ingnatius of Antiochus, Shepherd of Hermes, Polycarp (apupil of the Apostle John), Justin Martyr, Tatian and Irenaeus held to the belief that only those who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior will eventually inherit immortality and eternal life." I will end with his statement which I also fully agree: "Some cults and non-Christian relogions may have some correct seconhary doctrine, but their primary doctrines about Christ are wrong and incorrect". Soul sleep is of course a secondary doctrine and this doctrine is not ment to divide the "Body of Christ". timo | ||
| Timo K |
Bruce, I will quarantee you that all evangelical conditionalist use Bible to support their ideas. Brother Fudge uses around 1000 Bible verses to support his idea. Clark H. Pinnoch (whose name I forgot to mention in the context of the book "Four views of Hell") also supports his ideas with the Bible. The way to find out is to read a non-adventist book about conditionalism. Many attempts have been made to classify the conditional view as cultic, but in vain since more and more Biblical evidense support the doctrine. Conditionalism does not change even if adventists over-emphasises it. I read an analyse of the Greek word "aionion" which stated that there are many meanings of the word, which is mostly translated "forever" refering to time. Those who know greek could comment on this. timo | ||
| Lori |
David, Concerning the Rich man and Lazarus: I was just asking a question, did this support continuation of life after physical death as opposed to soul sleep. However, are there any other parables (if this is a parable) that use actual names? I can't recall any at the moment. My understanding about Abrahams bosom is that, prior to the resurrection of Christ, all believers who died, went to a place referred to as Abrahams bosom.......because atonement for all sins had not been made yet and believers could not go to heaven. After the resurrection, those who physically died (in Christ) entered heaven. Abrahams bosom is non existent for the Church age. And I understand the concept, that you referred to, where Jude was talking about our eternal position in Christ. It is now!!! We receive it the moment of salvation.......we are in heavenly places, now. But, in the same respect, there are many people who believe that aspect and still believe that at the end of their physical life, here on earth, that they will sleep (soul, body and spirit) until the end of the tribulation. Maybe I'm missing the topic of discussion----I thought it was just about the state of the dead in Christ, not about our positional authority and security in Christ and when that begins. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lori, I think you are absolutely correct when you write, "How can something be eternal, if it going to cease at some point and then be made alive again at a later point? The very essence of the words eternal life implies that it does not cease." And you have pointed your finger right at the fallacy in SDA "Evangelical" reasoning on this point. For, they mouth the words -- "I have eternal life now" -- but they go on to insist that the dead: 1. Do not praise God 2. Know not anything But what they're really saying is that they have to give up their "eternal life" when they die only to get it back again on Resurrection Morning. Question: Where does Scripture say that those who have "fallen asleep" in Christ "know not anything" and "do not praise God"? Answer: Nowhere. Scripture distinguishes between those who are "dead in Christ" and those who are just dead or, as I like to put it, "dead in Satan." For all who have not Christ are "dead in trespasses and sins," whether they are physicially alive or dead. But all who do have Christ are spiritually alive, whether they are physicially alive or dead. Thus could St. Paul write (Philippians 1:21-24 NIV): ^^^^^^^^^^^ For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." ^^^^^^^^^^^ And Paul eventually did stop "living in the body." He departed, and joined "with Christ" in a state no longer "in the body." That's where Paul is now -- "with Christ" but no longer "in the body." Can one say, then, that Paul knows "not anything" and does not "praise God"? To be consistent, then, "Evangelical" SDAs are forced to say that even though Paul has "eternal" life and is "with Christ" that he still knows nothing and no longer praises God! But there is zero scriptural support for their absurd conclusion. The scriptural conclusion is to recognize that in every instance, when Scripture says the dead know nothing, do not praise God, etc., it ALWAYS refers to the dead who are NOT IN CHRIST. Nowhere does Scripture say that those "who have fallen asleep in Christ" know nothing and no longer praise God! Reason: Because Christ has been raised from the dead! What a glorious Easter message! For (1 Corinthians 15:17-19 NIV): "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost." And I would go so far as to assert that under the SDA "Evangelical" model, if the "dead in Christ" "know not anything" and "do not praise God," then they are lost! But they are not lost! Therefore, they DO know something and they DO praise God! For, being "with Christ" means they do indeed have some form of consciousness or sentience, mysterious to us though it may be. What do they know? Let the faithful Job (19:25-27) speak for for them and for us all: "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another." And so, Lori, you have had it right all along, even as they have had it wrong: "How can something be eternal, if it going to cease at some point and then be made alive again at a later point? The very essence of the words eternal life implies that it does not cease." Amen, Jude |
