| Author | Message | ||
| Timo K |
Bruce, Yes, I would be happy if you put everything in net from the Enclyclopedia. Tertullianus was for sure a traditionalist. Also conditionalists admitt that. Many other, you mentioned are disputed. Have you looked at Arnobius? One reason (in my opinion) why there is controversy about some early Church Fathers is the difficulty to always interpret what they ment by "eternal fire". Of course if you have the opinion that eternal fire for them always ment eternal in time, there is not much argument against it. Do you agree that "eternal" also can mean "age to come"? I would suggest that you read Fudges book "FIRE THAT CONSUMES" and then give a critical analysis of the book. I am not a "hopeless case" against your arguments. I can mention, that some aspect of the "rapture"-discussion and Israel discussion I have been re-thinking after reading your posts about the subject. Who knows, how much I have to re-think conditionalism. The arguments has to be very good ones, since I am now very convinced about conditionalism. Even if you are a smart scholar, I am sure you don't get the conditional view without studing it thorougly. Pinnock is a Canadian professor of theology and he is baptist (Are you reading my post thorougly? I have mentioned this before). The home church for Fudge I don't know-but he is evangelical. The others I think are baptist, but have not read their material yet. If you take the challence and read Fudges book and do a critical analysis of it I can later start a more serious discussion with you, because I am plannig to study the traditional view better. I will next study a book, I just ordered, which is brand new: "TWO VIEWS OF HELL" InterVarsity press. Writers are Robert Peterson and Edward Fudge. This book gives me perspective to compare traditional view with conditionalistic view. After that, if I still feel for more study, I try to compare different traditionalistic views together. Since I am not loosing my soul on this study, I can have it as a "hobby". As long as salvation is salvation and hell is hell we are in good shape. Fudges book can be ordered tollfree (1-800-632-6657) Moyer's Family Bookstore, Portland, Oregon, or (Paternoster Press, Box 300, Carlisle, Cumbria, U.K.) In bookstores this is hard to get at least in Florida, since it is a few years old and almost sold out. The American edition is all sold out, this 94 edition is published in England. "TWO VIEWS OF HELL" can be ordered from any bookstore. timo | ||
| Lori |
George, When Adam was created, he was created in the image of God. The Trinity has three divisions. Adam had three divisions, body, soul and spirit. The body is simply a tent that houses the soul and spirit. The soul is that part of us that makes us the individual that we are, it is the living, breathing part of us that makes us alive and each breathe of our soul is by the very grace of God. The soul is also, our human volition. The spirit is, what you mentioned, that part of us that is implanted in us by God at the point of our salvation. When Adam chose to sin, with his soul (human volition), he lost that part of him that connected him to God. He was told that when he sinned that he would surely die. He immediately died spiritually! Hence, all of us born after him are born with only a soul and body. Only by accepting Christ do we again obtain the spirit that makes us truly alive!!!! Picture the soul and the spirit as two rooms, separated by one of those heavy electronic doors, the one that you can't stand in the doorway, because if you do it shuts anyway and your shoved back into the room of the soul. The 'soul' room is where we stand before we accept Christ, because the 'spirit' room has not been created yet. Once we accept Christ the spirit room is instantly completed and ready for occupancy, inside this 'spirit' room we find the mind of Christ, we find spiritual discernment and understanding and the ability to apply this information to every situation. The 'spirit' room is a place of inner peace and stability. On the other hand the 'soul' room is a place of familiarity. We can freely move from one room to the next, it is our choice. The door has an automatic locking system when you leave the 'spirit' room, it is opened very simply by a password. The password is the confession of your sin, because only that which is pure may enter the 'spirit' room. Your actions and thoughts determine how long you reside in the 'spirit' room, because nothing impure may remain in the 'spirit' room, either. Let's say you confess your known sin and you enter into the 'spirit' room, but immediately upon your entrance you encounter the most obnoxious person you know, what is the first thought that runs through your mind, possible something along the line of maligning and slander of that person, even though it may just be a thought and not verbalized, it is enough to separate you from God, because it is a sin. And out of the 'spirit' room you go. What do you do to get back in? You confess. The longer you remain in the 'spirit' room the more Bible truths you learn, the more peace of mind you have, the more ability to apply Bible doctrines, but then again the only time these are usable is when you are in the 'spirit' room. Once you enter into the 'soul' room, your operating under your old sin nature and even though what you do may be a good thing, it is filthy in the eyes of God. But the 'spirit' room is still there. And the fact that you have a 'spirit' room is what salvation is all about. It's not how much time you spend in it, it's whether you have one!!! Spending time in the 'spirit' room gives you blessings, inner peace and happiness, relaxed mental attitude, spiritual discernment, etc....so if you have one, why would you want to reside in the 'soul' room? Just because it's familiar? | ||
| Lori |
Allenette, Only two groups remain blinded: the spiritually dead, and the spiritually alive that choose not to learn biblical truths. All others know the physician intimately and have been cured of their blindness because they have followed his prescription without deviation. | ||
| Allenette |
1) It was a FABLE...(an ancient object lesson) 2) I was talking about Emergency Room Physicians resusitating (CPR) people, obviously if they can come back from being a "former"-live person then their Spirit or whatever religious term you like, hasnt "left the building" yet, has it? ....oh never mind. :-) Maestro, scriptures, please......... | ||
| Lori |
Someone asked about The Rich Man and Lazarus--a more extensive study of it. Why Christians Suffer Luke 16:19-31--Believer suffering for reasons out of his control. Why did Lazarus suffer? 1) to glorify God 2) teach beleiver the shortness of time on earth and the lengthiness of eternality. All suffering for the believer is confined to time on this earth. These scriptures tell of: Two Men in life Two Men in death Two Men in eternity v. 19--Rich man represents an unbeliever who has prospered and had happines of earth (all the luxury that money can buy), purple dyes were on o fhte most expensive dyes, only the most affluent wore purple, it states he lived in luxury every day!!! vs. 20 Beggar--destitute, had nothing, (did not even have the food, shelter or clothing) The Greek word, that is simply translated "laid" in our Bible, actually means, he was cast there (like garbage) and he laid there because he couldn't get up and move" Our translation says 'sores' but the Greek word actually means skin cancer (the only other mention of this word in the Bible is in Job) So in other words, Lazarus was thrown there and he continued to lay there because he could not get up and move, he was covered with skin cancer and he longed to eat what fell from the table. The dogs came and licked his sores. Can you imagine???? No people came to help him.....but dogs came to lick his sores. I suppose that most of you know the cleansing effect that dogs have, this was actually a blessing........no people came to help him so God sent the dogs to minister to him. vs. 22 The beggar died and the angels carried him to Abrahams side (paradise). The rich man died and was buried. In hell, where he was tormented he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Can you imagine the rich mans funeral? All the best........all the dignitaries and his five brothers following the procession. They were honoring the body, but his soul (he had no spirit) had departed and went to hades for all eternity. For all eternity he will be in misery. Apparently he was a Jew, a religious Jew, because he called 'Father' Abraham, only a religious Jew would have done this. So let's assume the Rich Man lived 70 years (that's a very attainable age that someone would live to be in our time). He not only lived for 70 years, he lived in absolute happiness, he lived 70 years with all the joy and happiness that money could buy and he enjoyed his life on earth!! Was it worth it, compared to eternity???? He could have purchased anything that he wanted on earth, but now he cant' even get a drop of water. vs.26 There are no second chances--once you have passed from this life without accepting Christ, you have had it. vs. 27,28 He realizes that he can do nothing about his circumstances, but his thoughts are on his family. He requests that Abraham send Lazarus back to testify to his brothers, to warn them, so they will not end up in this place with him. They all knew Lazarus, they had passed by him many times. vs. 29 Suppose somone returns from the dead to tells us how things are---Abraham told him that they had the words of Moses and the Prophets (they had scripture). vs. 30 The Rich man disagrees vs. 31 If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets (scripture), they will not be convinced even if a dead person returns and speaks the word of God. The Bible is more powerful and more important than anthing that anyone has to say, even more convincing than the words of a dead man that returns to speak the words of God. Lazarus is in heaven, he will never again suffer in eternity. The suffering of Lazarus had a purpose. It glorified God and recorded the principle. If not for the suffering this principle would not have been recorded. These are the words of God. This is a small window that has been opened to give us a glimpse of eternity. Does 70 years of happiness on earth outweigh suffering eternally? Some people think so! | ||
| George |
Allenette, Thank you for your observation. It is something that as been bothering me for quite a while. In the last 40 yrs. or so I have listened to so many people argue their point with so much force not knowing they are arguing about something different than the other person is thinking. I have also seen two people argue the same side of a subject and not know it. Another thing I have seen happen allot is people going around and around and around on the same subject and neither one be willing to even look at something new. While I like a stimulating discussion on any facet of religion, these ways of doing it will never get anyone anywhere. Take soul sleep for example, it seems to me that unless we can agree on what the soul really is we will never be able to agree on where it goes. It is like everyone is arguing on a different rung of the ladder and no one wants to go down to the bottom and see what the ladder is standing on. Sometimes I wonder if more people are going to discus and argue their way to hell that sin their way there. Anyway, thanks for noticing and saying someting and giving me a chance to rattle on a little as I had about decided not to post any more. George | ||
| George |
Maryann, How soon they forget. If you will remember it was I who was saying that we had to ask for frogiveness for our continuing sins. I am happy to say that I no longer believe that. What could be worse than having to worry about accedently sinning and not going to heaven. If after you are saved sins don't keep me out of heaven, why ask for forgivness, just forget them. What could be simpler? George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Timo, I'm just getting back on line after having been away for three days, and I haven't had time to read everything posted during that time in this Discussion. But Friday 21 April 00 you posted "When Christ returns we will be transformed to the same eternal beings that we already are in Christ. The Holy Spirit gives a 'foretaste' or 'firstfruit' for us to taste from the eternity above." I've searched the Scripture for evidence of that, but have come up empty. Specifically, how do we know that the Holy Spirit gives us only a "fortaste" or "firstfruit" here and now? My recollection is that the "eternity above" is ours here and now it all its fullness if we are in Christ. True, our UNDERSTANDING is imperfect, for we "see into a polished metal mirror" only dimly and then "face to face." But our EXPERIENCE is perfect if Christ is in us and we are in him. Is this not so? Needing Scripture, not just opinion, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
WAS LEROY EDWIN FROOM REALLY A SCHOLAR? I remember reading Froom's "The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers" (CFOF) many years ago. But I never finished it. And there's a good reason why. I remember reading enough of it to reach the conclusion that it was anything but scholarly. Froom misused all kinds of historical evidence and abused the Bible in what I felt was a shameless manner, with everything engineered to back up Ellen White's statements regardless of what those statements were. At the time I was an SDA who firmly believed in the SDA position about the state of the dead. But I was also an honest person and my nose was accustomed to sniffing out baloney. My position was -- and still is -- that I'll read anything that seems reasonable, but only UNTIL I RUN INTO BALONEY. Then I stop. That's what happened when I read CFOF. Bottom line: Froom's no scholar and is not recognized as such in the scholarly world. | ||
| Lori |
George, There is only one fallacy to your point about not confessing your sins-----in not confessing sins you remain under your carnal nature and completely lose the inner peace and happiness that you can have in the 'spirit'. Lack of confess ion keeps you from having spiritual discernment, it keeps you from having the ability to apply doctrine to your life. In essence you behave just like an unbeliever. Yes, you can be saved, even if after your salvation you never confess another sin, but you will be among the most miserable people on earth, the unhappiest people on this earth are Christians, because they refuse to walk in the Spirit and they are disciplined by God!!!! --We've had this discussion before-- We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. When you ignore that command, by not confessing known sin, you will be disciplined. (Unless of course, you are not His child........) | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
WHAT DOES THE PASSAGE OF TIME MEAN TO THE DEAD? Someone posted that "the dead make a seamless transition to that moment [reception of resurrection life when Christ arrives upon his cloud] as passage of time means nothing to them." Passage of time means nothing to "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus"? Whoa! How do we know that? If that's so, then how can Paul, after becoming "absent from the body" be "present with Christ" if in Christ's presence no time passes? If they who drink Christ's "water of life," eat his "bread of life," and as a result "never die," then how can they enjoy their "eternal life" if no time passes? Doesn't having life mean experiencing the passage of time? Our discussion seems to be going around in a circle: And we're back to Lori's significant question: Why would Christ give us eternal life only to interrupt it for a period of death? What does that do to our definition and understanding of "eternal life"? It seems to me that this is a matter essential to our Christmas present -- the salvation package. We either have eternal life in all its fulness, or we have nothing at all. I think if, as Christ's little children, we ask him for bread, he will not give us a [grave] stone. What does everyone else think? Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all The thing that has made the most sense to me out of a week or so of this conversation is; why would God promise us "ETERNAL life" here and now when we "believe, only to take it away when we die? God is a mystery, I do understand, but it makes NO sense to promise us something, then put us and His PROMISE on ice! Well, I gots lots to read. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL: THREE POSITIONS 1. The conditionalist believes the soul is not immortal, doesn't dream during "soul sleep," and while in heck only burns as long as his stack of sins holds out. 2. The traditionalist believes the soul is immortal and can burn forever, like Moses's "burning bush," without ever burning up. 3. The mystericist -- that's me -- believes that the nature of the human soul is a mystery just like many other mysteries of Scripture. So I take a step back and say, if I can't prove it from Scripture, then I won't take a stand on it. So what are you? Conditionalist? Traditionalist? Mystericist? Or something else? And why? I'll going to "soul sleep" now, perchance to catch a dream or two (since I'm not a conditionalist), while I await your noetic avermentations and perspicacious peregrinations. Grace and peace always to every one of you, by no means the least among whom remain Allenette and George, Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
I agree. Obviously we aren't supposed to completely understand what happens after death. If we were, Jesus would have made sure he told us. But it doesn't make sense to give us eternal life only to take it away for a period of death. Even though a dead body doesn't experience the passage of time, still the living left behind do experience it. It really does make a difference to me to know that the dead in Christ are not separated from him. I like knowing I won't be in a limbo of death for who knows how long after I die. I like knowing those I love will be safe in Jesus' love when they die. By the way, George, Lori gave a good answer regarding confessing of sins. When we're born again and receive the Holy Spirit, we are called to live holy lives. Developing spiritual discernment, as Lori said, involves being aware of our sins of the flesh. God wants us to repent of these. If we don't, we allow our hearts to become calloused to the Holy Spirit's promptings. We do not feel remorse when we trangress against others or ourselves. Remorse is God's way of waking us up to the areas of our life He wants to transform. | ||
| Timo K |
Jude, For me there are two main events is history. The first and the second comming of Christ. Regarding our salvation they are One and Same event. Already we have in Christ everything inputed what we will be imparted when He comes back. So I call what happens in me as the "first fruit or taste" when the Holy Spirit comes to the heart. In Christ I always have eternal life. It doesn't matter in what state (phycically dead or alive) I am otherwise. Only if I choose to seek my security "outside of Christ", I am in danger. timo | ||
| George |
Lori, Salvation is either as simple as believing that Christ died for all our sins and the only thing that will keep us out of heaven is our unbelief, or it isnít. It canít be both ways. I thought the carnal nature is what we got rid of when we were saved. I also thought we were filled with the spirit when we were saved. If we can get back our carnal nature and loose the spirit if we donít confess our sins then there is something wrong with the above description of salvation, and I donít see the point in the exercise. So we are back to ń If I kill someone and canít confess before I die will I go to heaven?ń apparently not if we get our sinful nature back and loose the spirit. Come to think of it, I think we will have our carnal nature till we actually get up there. I wondered some time ago if the above mentioned description of salvation is the perfection that we hear so much about. If we are not perfect ( Perfect in Gods eyes as His are the only eyes that count.) after salvation what is the point. The way that I have been thinking about it lately is: There is God, Christ, me, a chicken and some eggs. So here I am and my chicken (sinful nature) lays a lot of eggs (sins) which I keep in a basket because I canít do any thing else with them. Some where along the line I take all them to Christ and say ěI am sorry I laid all these eggs, here You can have all of them and what is more I donít want to lay any more and keep them in my basket.î To which He says ě I will take them and what is more I will take all the rest of them as soon as you lay them for as long as you live (just as long as you believe I will). Why in the world would I want to keep confessing new sins. Would it be that I donít really believe that He is there with His hand under my chicken? Or could it be that I donít think He knows that I canít help but lay eggs even though I donít want to? Maybe I think He will get mad at me for laying eggs and take His Spirit away and my salvation also? At this point I think the only thing He will get upset about is our unbelief. Why must we make things conditional. He puts only one condition on all of it, BELIEF. Well I have to go------ George | ||
| Plain Patti |
George, some very astute comments. One of the differences between RCC theology and that of the Reformers was exactly what you are referring to. The RCC believed(s) that God forgives sins, therefore, each individual sin must be confessed and repented of (and penance done for). The SDA church believes the same, only replacing penance with remorse. The reformers taught that God forgives sinners. Completely. Of course the difference is in the logical and systematic analysis of each system. Catholics (and SDAs) believe that sin is what we "do"; the reformers, like Paul, taught that sin is what we "are." RCC (and SDA): We are sinners because we sin. Reformers: We sin because we are sinners. It is very interesting when you follow the beliefs of each system to their logical and inevitable conclusions. A powerful church is on that can hold guilt over the heads of its members for their sins; Jesus has taken our guilt upon Himself, and, therefore, breaks the power of those who wish to control others by guilt. "The Truth shall set you free." "If we are in Christ we are free indeed." God bless, Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi, Timo, I appreciate your personal testimony, how that the Holy Spirit has provided a foretaste or firstfruit for you. I wish, though, that you had some Scriptural support, since I cannot accept for myself any teaching that comes only from anyone's private personal conviction. I personally have not found in Scripture any references that the Christmas package of salvation given to me by Jesus Christ is only a foretaste or firstfruit experience. That is an SDA doctrine that I learned early on, but one that Iíve had to discard as inadequate. In fact, what I have found seems to oppose the foretaste or firstfruit idea. Scripture seems to be saying that the package is complete. Two texts: Ephesians 2:6-7 NIV: ěAnd God raised us up with Christ and SEATED US WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY REALMS in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.î 1 Corinthians 2:7-10 NIV: ěWe speak of Godís secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: ëNo eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love himí ń BUT GOD HAS REVEALED IT TO US by his Spirit.î In my SDA past whenever Adventist speakers or writers presented this text in 1 Corinthians, they would always stop at the end of: ěNo eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.î They then would go on to expound that we have to wait till heaven above before we could see what ěNo eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived.î Oops! BIG BLUNDER. For the text goes on ń ěbut God HAS REVEALED it to us by his Spirit.î And, it seems to me that the SDA degrading of our salvation experience in Christ here and now is fully compatible and consistent with the SDA degrading of Jesus Christ, making him into something less than fully God with all the powers and prerogatives of God. For orthodox, historical SDA doctrine holds that Jesus Christ: 1. Is not God, but only Godís son in some lesser, diminutive sense. I once wrote an article for an SDA church missionary journal in which I asserted, ěJesus is God.î ěOh, no!î said the editor-in-chief. ěHeís not God! Heís Godís SON!î And the article had to be changed to fit this horrible heresy. 2. Is our Savior only in the sense that he is our EXAMPLE! In other words, he doesnít really save us. As our perfect example he shows us HOW to be saved, and we then save ourselves! Sound familiar? 3. Is only an archangel, Michael, on a par with the rival archangel Lucifer. And the two of them duke it out on equal terms in the battle of Armageddon. 4. Is only our ELDER BROTHER, thus denying his full divinity while overemphasizing his humanity. This leads to all sorts of error and perfidy, such as saying Jesus Christ had ěsinful flesh,î meaning that if he became perfect by overcoming his own sinful flesh, we too can become perfect by overcoming our own sinful flesh! But if we lift Christ up as Scripture intends us to lift him up, these heretical notions will fall away and our Christmas present will no longer be only a ěforetasteî or ěfirstfruit,î but fully the real thing. For (John 314-15 NIV), ěJust as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. And that includes being ěseated with him in heavenly realmsî where we are free to enjoy what ěno eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived.î Is this not so? Jude | ||
| George |
Patti, Thanks for your answer. I have to confess I donít know what the RCC is nor do I really understand what all the other religions believe. Those I would like to explore sometime but not right now. You see, right now I am involved in a life or death struggle, and I donít mean just a spiritual one. I donít know how much you know about Post Traumatic syndrome. It is the name given to behaviors we learn in response to traumatic things that happen to us. Most often very violent things. One of the contributing factors is not knowing where the enemy is coming from which leaves you wondering if you will live or die, all the while knowing that you have no control over what ever happens. One of the things I have learned in the anger management class I go to is that for what ever reason, I grew up with the feeling that I didnít count, in a sense I was worthless. Lots of things in my childhood reinforced this feeling, I had to be good or I would get spanked, sometimes I even got spanked when I was good. Now, add to this a religion that told me the same things. God is up there and you better be good or He will get you. Then there was the devil, you better watch out or he will make you do things and then God will get you. See, you were damned if you did and you were damned if you didnít and you still didnít know when any of this would happen. Just as I finished my last post I had to go for a one on one with the head of the anger class. I asked him what he thought of this idea. to make a long story short he said no wonder you are angry!!! I am telling you all this, one because I have wanted to explore ńreligion and psychologyń and two, to tell you that for the first time in my life I feel some relief from inner turmoil I have experienced as long as I can remember. The thing that did it for me was when I finally saw that it wasnít ěsinsî that would keep us out of heaven but, just our unbelief. You see, now it doesnít matter if the devil makes me do things, or if I just screw up on my own, or accidently forget to confess some sin. THEY ARE COVERED no matter what, as long as I believe, and continue to weed out those things that lay eggs as the Holy Spirit points them out, and then there will only be good things left. It is not that I have to go out and do good things on purpose, (that would be works) it is just the good things that are left. Now you see, if I had to go back to that cloud of damnation I think I would just give up. George | ||
| Timo K |
Jude, Rom.8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the wit, the redemption of our body." In the finish translation the meaning of the the word is like "firstborn fruit" and it has a meaning to me that there is much more to come. One of the major jewish yearly feasts was pentecost. It was a spring feast where the "first" harvest was gathered. Pentecost came after passover. Also in christian life our basis is always the Blood of Christ and the fruit is the Holy Spirit. We have not accepted Jesus if we are not born again by the Spirit. Also the Holy Spirit is described as our Seal in Eph.5:30: And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption". By "firstfruit" I do not mean to give a small place to the Spirit. He is the Third Person of God Almighty. The power of God is not in discussion, but the Redemtion. The Holy Spirit gives us Christ life. We are babtised by The Spirit, because Jesus ascended (Acts.2:33) and the Spirit gives us what Christ gained for us. That I mean by "firstfruit". timo |
