| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
SHEEP STEALING? OR TURNING GOATS INTO SHEEP? Our Former Adventist Fellowship has come under subtle pressure. Subtle but real. From high places within Adventism. Higher than you probably realize. Pressure to change our name. To get the word "Adventist" out of the title. Because we don't "own" it you see. Because the SDA church has trademarked it. As though faith is a trade -- like McDonalds or Goodyear or General Electric! Doesn't have to make sense. If the SDAs can get it through the courts they'll sue anybody for trademark infringement. Don't laugh. There's a court case going on in Florida even as you read this. SDA attorneys, such as Robert Nixon, are asking the court to prohobit a "splitoff" historical SDA church from using the name "Seventh-day Adventist." On the ground that religion is a trade and not a faith. Like I said, it doesn't have to make sense, legally or otherwise. If it works -- and they're trying their best to make it work -- they'll use it regardless. I wonder why? Why the pressure on FAF to change its name? Is it because we're having an IMPACT? Hope so! A group of dedicated Christians could do worse than to turn legalists into Christians. Couldn't they? In his grace alone, Jude | ||
| jtree |
What? Change it? They were Millerites at one time, how about this for a change. Former Millerite Fellowship. Do they own that name too? | ||
| ApostleDave |
If you dislike the SDA church so much why would you want to have ANY association with it (including the name?) I don't know why you have become disenchanted with the SDA church, that is between you and the Lord, and I will not criticize your decisions. After all, the Lord has given us all free wills to worship whomever, whenever and I won't usurp the will of God. However, I will only guess that you want to keep "Adventist" in your name because then people will be able to see you discrediting the church. If you have something to share concerning the SDA church you have every right to share it. However, do so with love and distinguish yourselves as much as possible....If you are asked to drop the name then do so...Nothing lost (in your opinion anyway) | ||
| Steve |
Hi ApostleDave, When I was looking for some support on the Internet (funny, but quite a place in this day and age) I found FAF. If it had been named something else, Former Millerite Fellowship, etc., I never would have found it. These people have provided support, a listening ear, a shoulder to cry on, wonderful Biblical insights, someone to get angry with, someone to get happy with. In one word: FELLOWSHIP. The SDA church carries a very heavy responsibility. It has led people into numerous theological errors. This is a place where we can begin to find ourselves after having allowed ourselves to be lost in SDAism. I doubt VERY MUCH that these people want to keep Adventist in the name so people will see us discrediting the church. This is a place of support for people with similar backgrounds and experiences. Of course we're going to say some demeaning things about the SDA church. As a Seventh-day Adventist, there have been numerous individuals IN THE CHURCH who have criticized the church in acceptable ways. We are those who have begun to criticize the church in UNacceptable ways. As Steve Daily said, people tend to discredit others' experiences in direct proporation to the absence of those experiences in their lives (that's a paraphrase of Daily's Law, something shared recently in the Destination Sabbath School at La Sierra University church.) Just because you don't agree with those here who have had valid experiences does not give you a right to criticize those who have had those experiences. Please understand that this Fellowship serves Christ in some very unique ways. And if an ORGANIZATION suffers, so what? Christ did not create an organization, He created a Fellowship of Believers, the Body of Christ. That Body goes beyond denominational barriers, and includes this Lowly Fellowship. There is a need for Kidneys and Livers in the Body of Christ. Steve | ||
| Ann L |
ApostleDave, "If you dislike the SDA church so much why would you want to have ANY association with it (including the name?)" They were once SDA's and now they're not, so that makes them "Former Adventists." What's the big deal? Will SDA's soon be handing out lawsuits to people who say that they are former adventists? And moreso, it's not "Former Seventh Day Adventist Church", they just chose "Former Adventists" which is quite definitive of who they are. I'm quite sure that sda's wouldn't have a problem with a group called Former Mormons or even moreso Former Catholics. I can understand to some degree if a church who broke-off from them kept the name, but come on, this is just petty, childish nonsense! Will sda's soon be slapping lawsuits on churches who include "Adventist" in their name because they believe in the second coming of Christ? Or churches who include "Seventh-Day" in their name because they choose to worship on Saturday? I'm sure the Seventh-Day Baptists didn't make a big issue over sda's "taking their name." And I'm sure that Baptists don't make a big issue over SDB's keeping the "Baptist" in their name either. So what should be the difference when it comes to sda? "I don't know why you have become disenchanted with the SDA church...then people will be able to see you discrediting the church" No one "dislikes" the sda church, we just happen to "disagree" with some of its teachings because we believe that they contradict the Gospel. There are many sites out there who are probably anti-sda, but this site is not one of them. As far as discrediting goes, isn't that what the sda church does to the Roman Catholic Church? In fact, isn't that what the sda church does to all other churches that aren't sda? I don't see the Catholic church wanting to sue the sda church. I concur with Jude, the only reason the sda church would want this site to drop the Adventist out of it's name is because it feels threatened. And like I said, the sda church has more than discredited the Catholic church, so you shouldn't even be trying to talk about someone discrediting sda. | ||
| Ann L |
Amen Steve! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi ApostleDave, I will deal with your mistaken assumptions/guesses first, then address the thrust of your post. Mistaken Assumption/Guess No. 1: That I ìdislike the SDA church.î The truth: I donít. I was born into the SDA church and, like family, I will always be a part of it. In fact, contrary to your assumption, I love the people of the SDA church. Mistaken Assumption/Guess No. 2: That I ìhave become disenchanted with the SDA church.î The truth: I havenít, at least not in the sense I infer from your post. I have become demystified from the SDA church and de-cultified from it. Thus I see it now as a ripe mission field, white unto gospel harvest. Mistaken Assumption/Guess No. 3: That I want to keep "Adventist" in FAFís name because then people will be able to see me discrediting the church. The truth: I want to keep "Adventist" in FAFís name because many honest-hearted Seventh-day Adventist people, such as yourself, will home in on that ìbeacon word,î arrive at our website -- where ìthe righteousness of God without the law is manifested,î Romans 3:21 ñ and be converted to Jesus Christís doctrine of grace plus nothing at all. Mistaken Assumption/Guess No. 4: ìIf you are asked to drop the name then do so.Ö Nothing lost (in your opinion anyway).î The truth: A great deal would be lost in my opinion, namely a great many SDA people who might otherwise be saved from their quasi-legalism, which, incidentally, is a far more insidious form of legalism than honest, out-and-out legalism! The thrust of your post: ìIf you have something to share concerning the SDA church you have every right to share it. However, do so with love and distinguish yourselves as much as possible.î My answer: Yes, indeed, and thank you for that affirmation. Blessings only upon your head, my friend, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Apostle Dave, Very interesting name. How did you come by it? One of my brother's was in Vietnam. He was a medic. He saw some horrific things. He had to choose to give life to one and not the other because he would die anyway, and his death gave a fighting chance to the other. He was shot down over enemy territory in a helicopter. The gunner's head blew off all over my brother and the pilot was shot through the heart. The co-pilot crash landed and they had to pull the dog tags off the two dead buddy's and burn them and the helicopter. It took them two days of dodging the enemy and bullets to get out to safety. What's the point? My brother attends Vietnam Vet functions and groups,.....NATURALLY! Does anyone criticize our Vietnam Vets for using that name?! No way!!!!!!! They use it to identify who they are and where they have been and to offer encouragement and help to those still suffering from the trauma they experienced!!!!! They are not stealing anything from Vietnam, sheese! Now, since you did bring it up, I'll bring up some more. There are some of us "FORMER adventist Fellowshippers" that have been shot down, burned and left for dead. There are some of us FaFers that have seen our friends and families shot down, burned and left for dead too. We want to identify ourselves as a safe place to heal and it would be hard to do that as Former --------- Fellowship! You posted: If you dislike the SDA church so much why would you want to have ANY association with it (including the name?) That has to be the MOST absurd thing ever to grace these pages, REALLY! I'm very thankful to be a former SDA and to be able to identify with some poor hurting soul. If you are not aware of some of the stuff that has been done in the name of the Christ of SDAism, you are indeed rare. If you are hiding pain behind the Christ of SDAism, and would like to get to know the Christ of the Bible, God's son, not Michael the Archangel, please join us as a welcome child of God. Your welcome anyway, BTW, Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Ann L., Wonderful post! I especially liked this part: "I DO NOT HAVE TO REFER TO THE OLD TESTAMENT TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE AS A CHRISTIAN. I understand that the sabbath (the seventh day and all the others) were only a shadow pointing to Christ. FACT (whether or not some believe it, it remains a fact): Colossians 2:16 says that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH was a 'shadow' but the 'reality' is Christ. This coincides with 'till all be fulfilled.' The sabbath was fulfilled in Christ." Ann, bless you, as far as I can tell, you are absolutely right on. And Scripture backs you to the hilt. Refer to Acts 15 about the Council at Jerusalem. There, at the "church headquarters," so to speak, the earliest Christian leaders debated whether or not Gentile believers needed to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. Conclusion: No, not at all! In fact, the earliest "church president," if I could make so bold as to use that title, James, "ruled" this way (Acts 15:19-21 NIV): "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should NOT MAKE IT DIFFICULT for the Gentiles WHO ARE TURNING TO GOD. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." That's it! No Sabbath! No circumcision! No Ten Commandments! Wow! Jude | ||
| Steve |
Wonderful stuff, Ann & Jude I especially like the stuff about the church council in Acts 15. That used to be one of my favorite texts. But after joining the SDA church, I was sure they left some things out. HA! The laughs on me. Nothing was left out. As you, and the text pointed out, their intention was to NOT MAKE IT DIFFICULT for those turning to God. ApostleDave, who's Apostle are you? Are you preaching Good News to those who are the outcasts of this world, or are you preaching an organization's message? Let's not be guilty of binding up burdens for the world weary souls. BTW, please come back. We want to hear your response to our thoughts. Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
IS THE FAF WEBSITE ANTI-ADVENTIST? A friend told me recently that there are "over 1000 anti-Adventist websites" on the Internet, ours included. FAF anti-Adventist? I've been thinking about that. Is it so? "Apostle Dave" seems to think so. But stop and think: During WWII there was a tremendous amount of "anti-German" sentiment in newspapers and national magazines and on the radio. But I think it was mostly anti-Nazi, rather than anti-German. Thoughtful Americans were able to distinguish the German people from their government and leadership at the time. I think the same can be said for most of the so-called "anti-Adventist" websites. I've examined only about twenty to twenty-five. But those I looked at seemed to be anti-SDA doctrines/dogma/teachings that conflict with the gospel -- not anti-Adventist people. I would certainly hope that most who post on FAF would be able to make that distinction. Sometimes people who have been deeply hurt and damaged by "the church," have to be given room to "vent." And in some of those "ventings" some very harsh things may be said. But after the dust settles, the former Adventist should be able to come to terms with his/her past, deal with it, and get on with life. And it is the gospel, after all, that at the end of the day rescues us from the delusions of Seventh-day Adventism. So, be of good cheer, for Jesus Christ has overcome the world, including the SDA quasi-heresy about Christ. And we can now think of ourselves as people who -- though we may have been walking in darkness -- have seen a great light. Blessings, Jude | ||
| Steve |
I have given talks ("seminars") on the cults over the years. I've done much studying with various groups (although I didn't investigate SDA like I did the others). Although SOME have accused me of being anti-Mormon/Jehovah Witness/Children of God/Hare Krishna/Urantia Brotherhood/Christian Science/Unification Church/ and about 15 others, I have always been recognized by those who know me, and have listened to me, as being PRO-People, but Anti-false doctrine. Now that I've recognized my own church as being in a similar, or the same, category, it's amazing that I would be called an Anti-Adventist. Especially, since I am still an SDA. (OK, theologically, I'm not SDA, but technically, I still am.) Those few Formers that I know are wonderfully Pro-Seventh-day AdventIST, while at the same time, being Anti-Seventh-day AdventISM. ApostleDave, and others who may be searching this website, we love SDAs. Some of us are still SDAs, but we can't stand for what a human institution has done with the Gospel of Christ. We aren't in the majority. There are many I've talked to on the Walter Martin Religious InfoNet website, who don't see the problems in SDAism, and of course, there are many honest SDAs who don't realize that there are problems. Perhaps one of our missions here is to simply bring people out of trusting an organization into trusting Jesus completely for everything. In the meantime, and through these discussions, some toes will get stepped on, and we may even appear to be Anti-Adventist. But nothing could be further from the truth. It would be easy to simply drop out of the religious scene. But we have found Jesus. And because He is so wonderful, we want to share Him with everyone, ESPECIALLY our brothers and sisters in SDAism. This website is fullfilling a mission of bringing people closer to Jesus. It has fulfilled that mission in my life. So even if you view this site as Anti-Adventist, it is Pro-Jesus -- and Pro-Jesus websites, if they lead people to Christ -- are fulfilling the Great Commission. We look forward to more fruitful and meaty discussions with those who are questioning, not questioning, defaming, and defending. May we all, regardless of our affiliations, be led closer to Christ through these experiences. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Dennis |
It is indeed worthy of praise and honor, that Jesus Christ is the central theme and inspiration of this FAF Web site. Despite our theological detours, our hearts have been melted at the foot of the Cross. As a result, we will never be the same again. We share many commonalities with each other as former Adventists. May we ever uplift Christ to a dying world! In His grace, Dennis J. Fischer |
