| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Timo, And I would be the last person to argue with that truly scriptural interpretation of "firstfruit." Good job. God bless, Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
This is off of the subject of this thread, but this seems to be the spot that this particular conversation developed, so I will continue it here. George, I understand your anger. I am not trying to sound goody-two-shoes here. I have experienced a lot of what you are speaking of. I think one of the first steps that one must take in dealing with anger at being deceived or abused is to realize that it is OK to be angry. If you were raised as I was, I heard repeatedly that "even when Jesus gave His most scathing rebukes, there were tears in His voice." And that we should never raise our voices or get angry. Now, I trash this along with the rest of the unnecessary EGW baggage. When Jesus called the Pharisees "You snakes!" and "You sons of Satan!" He was no mealy-mouth. I am quite sure that those moneychangers in the Temple flew from Him in terror! The point being that since we are forgiven in Christ, we can accept our humanness, we can allow ourselves to feel things that we were trained we were not supposed to feel. One of the things I love about the Psalms is that sometimes David just throws up his hands and says, "Where are you, God?" It is ok to be human (since we really have no choice in the matter.) It is ok to be angry. And it is ok to break off abusive relationships. With people; with organizations; with our own self-flagellations. This is not to say that there will not be pain, but sometimes the pain of the surgery is worth cutting away the sore. Hang in there! God never promised to take care of all our troubles for us, but He did promise to stay with us until the end. God bless, Patti | ||
| Lori |
George, Reread my post about the soul and spirit, etc....I wasn't refering to you losing your salvation. And, no, you don't get rid or your carnal nature, your carnal nature is your soul.......When you are seal with the Holy Spirit when you believe in Christ, your salvation is sealed!!!! It cannot be removed. That is not the issue that I was talking about. The Holy Spirit indwells us when he seals us. There is a vast difference in being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit!!!! When you don't acknowledge what you do as sin, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, he still indwells you, but you are not walking in the Spirit. Your description of the eggs is Great---it's the same principle. You gave the eggs (sin) to God, but you keep laying more (sin).........if you don't keep giving them to God (confessing) then your baskets going to get awfully full and awfully uncomfortable (no peace), but if you keep giving them to God (confess) then you have peace. You have the concept........don't keep sitting on your eggs (sin), (confess) give them to God and have his peace! Oh, and what God gave you to lay the eggs in (the basket) is what really saves you, doesn't matter what you decide to carry with you, that only determines how comfortable the ride is. You understand it, George, my terminology just wasnt' working for you!! Lori | ||
| George |
Patti I wrote you a ling letter but lost it in the computer somewhere. will write it again tomorrow. Lori here is where you and I differ. After you are saved you can still put eggs in your basket. If you have eggs in your basket you are not saved When I am saved He died for all my sins past present and FUTURE. So He has his hand there to catch my eggs as I lay them, so there are no eggs in my basket, ever again. Unless I stop believing. Why do you want to put eggs in your basket??? Yes, I agree that we never get rid of our carnal nature but I don't think it is our soul, if it is why would God want to do anything with it after it is dead? Got to go ---George | ||
| Bruce H |
George Question can we sin and be saved? Here is and Old Covnenat Commandment. Numbers 30:2 2 "If a man makes a vow to the LORD, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. Here is a New Covenant Commandment (From mount Beatitudes). Matthew 5:33-34 33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old (Old Covenant mount Siani, Number 30:2), `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 "But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; Could the reason we are not to make an Oath to the Lord be that he know's we cannot Keep it (I will keep the Sabbath Lord). Bruce Heinrich George, My brother married a girl who's Dad's name is George the second, He named his first born son George. This father in law George's (The second) sister married a George and they live right next door to george her brother, and He named His first born son George. At the Last Family reunion there were 6 George's in one Home. BH | ||
| George |
Bruce, How you ever keep the first George separate from the last George and the third George from the fifth George and that George from the second George and the second George from the fourth George I will never know. I worked in a shop once that had four people with my name. I got tired of answering for everyone else so I just stopped answering until I heard my name three or four times. It worked for me. I still donít think you guys understand what I am trying to say about salvation and sins. Lets go back to the idea of the basket and eggs. If having eggs in your basket makes you lost, and you have to give them to Christ to be covered by His death to be saved, then, if after you are saved you have more eggs in your basket you are in a before saved conditionólost. What I thought we worked out weeks ago is that ALL sins are paid for and will NEVER be held against you and the only thing that can keep you out of heaven is not believing that. So, all this time the only egg, the only ONE egg that was EVER in our basket was the egg of unbelief. If you sell a car ëas isí, and have been paid for it, are you always going to go back to fix something? Are you going to go back and say you are sorry for things that continue to go wrong with it? I donít think so!! WHY then do you want to keep playing around with the sins you have sold to God that paid for, not with just money, but with His Sons death. Maybe I have been away from all ëreligioní for so long that I can see some things through different eyes. All I know is that this idea is the only thing that has EVER made me want to take another look at God. This takes all the confusion out of sins, sinful nature, salvation, perfection, and all those other things we like to argue about so much. It has to be simple. And this is the only thing that makes it that way. Got to go óGeorge | ||
| Plain Patti |
George, I am probably going to add more confusion to the "egg" theory. Feel free to ignore me. (I am used to it--snif, snif :) What do you think about this scenario: We are chickens, and because we are chickens we lay eggs. Our eggs collect in a basket of our own making. When Jesus comes to us in the Gospel, He takes away the basket! So that our eggs no longer collect on us, but fall into the depths of the sea (I guess we are sea chickens :), to be remembered no more. Yeah. I like that thought. :) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, That's really funny. With that thought, we are now Tuna's (chicken of the sea ;-) I really like the way you put the chicken/egg story. I really haven't put a lot of thought to the whole theory that George is talking about, I just haven't analyzed it. Since I know George, I will try to explain where I think he's coming from. He finds it so amazing that all the fears he had as a child were just simply NOT understanding the gospel. With his "new understanding" of being judged by belief or un-belief, he just can't understand why on should ask forgiveness for a sin that doesn't exist. God bought "all sins" past, present and future. He paid the ultimate price, His one and only Son. Why would God want us to mess with HIS sins? Do they have to be acknowledged if they are His and not ours? I really DO see his point. I really DO know that he is sincere. I really DO know that he, for the first time in my life time of knowing him is interested in knowing God! I think there is a verse (or several) that say we are to die daily and confess our sins daily. I just can't honestly discuss how to make them work with the "so simple plan of salvation" that George is now getting to know. I hope I explained his view properly and George, if I misrepresented it, I'm sure you will let everyone know where I misrepresented it. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann and George, We are NEVER without sin this side of the harvest (Second Coming). 1 John 1:8 NIV: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [Jesus Christ the righteous] out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." We are both sinful and sinless at the same time. This is another paradox, just like the one about Jesus being 100% human and 100% God at the same time. Peace, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I understand that we have a sinful carnal nature till the "harvest". I accept that we MUST confess our sins daily. I understand that our sins are not charged against us when we believe. I believe that confession is acknowledgement of the Supreme Sacrifice made and completed on the cross, ressurection and accention. I just don't know how to get that across to George. You brought out a very good point about the paradox. Would you please explore that concept with George. Thank you.......Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Hi, George, I understand your confusion............I was trying to figure out what the simple truth of the matter was when my husband told me this: The real issue is that the judgement of sins has become confused with the forgiveness of sins. Judgement of sins was at the cross and the wages were paid at the cross. The Cross was the court room. There was Judgement, Sentencing and Execution. There is no mention of forgiveness at the cross. When does forgiveness take place????? It's when you confess. 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" As parents, we know that our children are going to sin. When do we forgive them? At birth, before they commit them??? Or do you forgive the sins as they happen, when they are recognized for what they are???? It's a silly question-------with an obvious answer!!!!!!! | ||
| Maryann |
Lori, Great concept! At least for me. I just copied it to re-read it later. If that doesn't make sense to George, I'll go jump off a sidewalk ;-) Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi, Maryann, If George wants me to answer a question, then he must ask me a question. Not meaning to be uppity, just pointing out my boundaries and ground rules by which I converse with other adults. Grace and peace to you, Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
George I believe you are right. Lori ----The real issue is that the judgement of sins has become confused with the forgiveness of sins ---- Great point we will not be judged for out sins and sentenced but we may get reprimanded or lose gifts or rewards, but there is no condemnation for those who are in christ. I Love it He is our father, and you can trust in Him and know he will save you and take care of you but He will also hold you accountable because He does Love you the same way we do with our children. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| George |
Patti, I think you have it!!! Lori, I am not sure if you do yet. Bruce, I will have to talk to yu some more before I could say. Once again the computer had a good meal. I will not be able to rewrite again till Monday. Got to go ---George | ||
| Lori |
Bruce, That was exactly the point I have been trying to get across. Our future sins have nothing to do with our salvation, our salvation is already sealed. God, the Holy Spirit can not be in the prescense of sin!!!!! So when we do sin, we quench the Holy Spirit. Our post salvation sins have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation, but it has everything to do with blessings, inner peace and discipline. George, I have never said that sins after salvation nullified it------I have never even implied that! Jude, I would very much like to hear your understanding of the correlation between judgment and confession of sin. Lori | ||
| Plain Patti |
Maryann, Gosh, you make me feel silly. I had a perfect punchline and didn't even realize it! (Chicken of the Sea!) But at least you came through with it! George, Thanks for your affirmation. I guess it takes a chicken (or a tuna?) to know one. God bless, Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lori, I hear your request, and I will get to it as soon as I can. I've been having a lot of trouble with my Internet connection, and so have wasted hours and hours of what would otherwise be productive work. I'm right now using a nice 13-year-old boy's iMac, and I'm thankful to him. And right now I've got to address Mike Jones' article, "Why I Came Back" [to the SDA church] in the April 2000 issue of "the good old 'Review.'" Godspeed | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I think a little clarification on an issue is in line. It's with great trepidation that I go into this. Due to circumstances beyond my control and explaning, George and I are not able to talk execpt on rare occasions. He does not have a phone either. So, with such a great point you had on the paradox idea, I simply asked, "Would you please explore that concept with George." No, I don't think you are being "uppity". I don't think that is your way or how you want to come across. I do think you could be misunderstood on that post. Luke 22 talks about who is the greatest and who is the least, Matthew 19 talks about who is first should be last and the last should be first. As brothers in Christ, I love both of you, and I think you both should be the greatest and the first in the Kingdom of God and as you have pointed out so well, the Kingdom of God is here, now. As for "boundaries and ground rules by which I converse with other adults" just doesn't apply here as George is but an infant in Christ and should be nurtured as such. This reminds me of a story. When I was 14-15, a little boy came to live with us for a while. Even though I envisioned myself as tuff, I was terrified of the dark. This was crazy as we lived deep in the forest. I would go out in the areas that were a bit open, but not in the thick woods at night. Well, little Mikey and I were out on the horse and it got late on us and it very quickly got blacker than the inside of a cow. He was scared. I was scared witless. Every noise was a bear and every breath of wind was Big Foot. Lost was not a problem as the horse knew his way home. It wasn't very long before this little hand found mine and squeezed as hard as a little 3 year old guy could. We made it home alright and didn't get in trouble. The amazing thing is that the next night little Mikey wanted to go out in the dark again. Since we lived through the previous night and I didn't want to be a sissy, I took him out. As long as we held each others hands we felt safe which goes to show me that an infant and an adult in Christ can go hand in hand through the gates into the Kingdom of God as the greatest and firstest. Thank you Jude for digging up that precious memory for me. I haven't seen Mikey since he was 4 and wonder about him often and every birthday. Your sister in Christ.....Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
Lori, you asked Jude: I would very much like to hear your understanding of the correlation between judgment and confession of sin. You did not ask me, but I will take a stab at it if you don't mind. (Actually, I already did, but somehow it never posted. That has been happening to me a lot lately. Is it just me or have some of you experienced this also?) John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Also: John 3:18 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned (or, judged) already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Clearly, when we believe in Jesus Christ, we have nothing to fear from "judgment." We have the verdict of the judgment already in Jesus Christ. He is worthy, therefore, we are accepted by God because of Him. Here is a great passage I just "found": Titus 3:3 Once we, too, were foolish and disobedient. We were misled by others and became slaves to many wicked desires and evil pleasures. Our lives were full of evil and envy. We hated others, and they hated us. 3:4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love. 3:5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 3:6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did. 3:7 He declared us not guilty because of his great kindness. And now we know that we will inherit eternal life. There seems to be little doubt that our salvation is sure when we are in Christ. So where does confession come in? I believe that confession has more to do with confessing Christ's worthiness than with the confessing of individual sins. In fact, I will venture so far as to say that it is an impossible task for we humans to remember, let alone confess, every sin. One of the differences between Catholicism and Reformed Protestantism is this: Catholics believe that God forgivens sins. The reformed faith teaches that God forgives sinners. Completely. Catholicism (and Ellen and SDAism) teaches that each sin must be identified, confessed, and be recompensed by penance. The reformed faith believes that Christ forgives sinners. Completely. Confession, for the believer, means, IMO: 1. Confessing that Christ alone is worthy; In the New Testament (NIV) the word "confess" occurs ten times. Of these ten times only two have to do with the confession of sin. The rest concern the confession that Jesus is Lord. Romans 10:8b "....The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name. Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. By so confessing the worthiness of Jesus Christ, we are, by default if for no other reason: 2. Confessing our own unworthiness; and 3. Confessing our helplessness to help ourselves. The relationship between confession and judgment, you ask? From what I read it is this: If we believe and verbally confess that Jesus Christ is our full salvation, we will not come into judgment. WDYT? |
