| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hi, Richard, I agree with your take on the situation. After all, do we or do we not believe that Christ's blood covers us completely? Suicide, although final in this life, is just another sin. We become quite Roman Catholic if we say it cannot be forgiven because it cannot be "confessed." My opinion only..... | ||
| Colleentinker |
I agree, Richard and Maryann and Patti. I think that when a person really understands grace and the fact that sin is not actions or genetics but actual soul or spirit death, all "sins" look different. One thing I never understood during most of my Adventist years was the reality of spiritual warfare. We absolutely cannot underestimate the significance of people being harassed or oppressed because of deeply damaging things they went through. God alone is sovereign, and he alone can judge and redeem! | ||
| Jude the obscure! |
Patti, amen! Colleen, amen! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all, I am truly amazed at the lack of response to this line I brought up. On third thought, I'm not amazed. This says a lot to me in that we all (including me) don't want to talk about the taboo "SUICIDE". It is so common! Why are we afraid of this subject. I often wonder when I'm in a crowd, "Who will not be here tomorrow from catagories like, accidents, sickness and murder." Have you ever wondered if a family member, friend, church member, co-worker, YOUR CHILD, YOUR SPOUSE, your neighbors child is contemplating such a thing? Have we ever bothered to look past the facade that people have to see if there is something dying from the inside. Sometimes it is the closest people that we take for granted that are hurting so. You know, it is so gradual that you don't even notice it. People dying from the inside of course don't all commit suicide, but some do. Wow, just like my above post on May 1, where I told something so personal that I can't remember ever telling a soul about, I just have no clue what is going to come out of the ends of my fingers till I sit down. Sorta similar to the yellow pages, I let my fingers do the talking though. That way, if I choose, I can take my words back. My fingers quit? I don't know why? I don't know why this has been so heavy on my heart. Sorta puzzled.......Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann, I've been thinking about the reasons I don't want to talk about suicide. One is that I agree very strongly with Paul in Romans 5:20 NIV: ^^^^^^^^^^^ The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ^^^^^^^^^^^ The idea is that you can convince a suicidal person who has just accepted Christ as his personal Lord and Savior -- but who is still very much a baby on mother's milk -- that it is possible to commit suicide and still be saved, because of the nature of God's grace. All right, what if this person takes you at your word and kills himself? How would you feel? The responsibility that God gives us as gospel-spreaders is awesome. Here is a person who kills himself in this life because he has eternal life and is anxious to go to a place of eternal thrills and no pain! Something is seriously wrong with this picture! Am I coming close to answering your question? In him, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Richard Jr, It's alway good to hear from you and your perspective. I guess one thing that bothers me is that people go, shhhhh, he is talking about suicide, in hushed tones. If you have a heart attack, people run to you. If you even hint to suicide people run away from you. There is medicine for the heart and also for the brain. Why don't Christian go bazerk when someone has a sick heart? If you have the time, post more often...Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I'm still puzzled? You said, "I've been thinking about the reasons I don't want to talk about suicide. One is that I agree very strongly with Paul in Romans 5:20 NIV: ^^^^^^^^^^^ The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." We've all come to an understanding that all "sin" is the same in Gods sight. You said, "All right, what if this person takes you at your word and kills himself? How would you feel?" I would feel awful if anyone committed suicide. If that person was so mentally out of it to not to want to remain with the living, yet accepted the Lord in that state, I'd certainly feel better than if he hadn't believed. You said, "The responsibility that God gives us as gospel-spreaders is awesome. Here is a person who kills himself in this life because he has eternal life and is anxious to go to a place of eternal thrills and no pain!" That is a responsibility for sure. I'd rather bumble a bit in giving the gospel than not give it at all. Jesus could cover my sins, so I'm sure he can edit the transmission of my bumblings of the gospel. My goal is NOT to bumble, BTW. My question is; if someone wants to get saved so he can kill himself and be in heavenly bliss, is he really saved? Back to what my issue is. Your first sentence, "I've been thinking about the reasons I don't want to talk about suicide." Why wouldn't you want to talk to someone about it? Or didn't I understand you? My whole thing is to be in tune with our fellow man and where he is at so we can be available for them when the warning signs are flashing. A Christian can be down and out too, it is not just a non-christian ailment. Let me ask the question another way. How can we better tune our selves in to the needs of other people? How can we be more aware? I guess I'm having problems getting this one out too. Grrrrrrr Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
I remember a period of my life when I used to wish I would/could die. I never got to the place of planning to off myself, but I certainly wished and imagined being able to just go to sleep and never wake up. I'm convinced, Maryann, that suicidal desires have at least a measure of demonic oppression in them. I believe they usually also contain some sort of deep, unresolved pain or transgression against us, usually dating from long before the catalyzing event. I have to agree with Jude; rationally analyzing the "forgivableness" of suicide only objectifies the problem instead of solving it. I want to restate that I do not believe suicide is necessarily unforgivable. But I also believe that analyzing our depression and suicidal thoughts does not solve them or make them managable. I really believeóand I do not claim to be an expert; I'm only talking about my own perceptions and experienceóthat we can't solve the problem of suicide until we're willing to fully face the pain that lies underneath and even admit the (sometimes passive) choices we made throughout our lives that got us to that place. Jesus cannot heal what we hide from ourselves. And Jesus does not heal without our experiencing and owning our own pain AND culpability. Quite honestly, while a fellow believer can provide support and draw our attention to the love and forgiveness of Jesus, we have to be willing to walk into the Truth. And the truth is facing whatever quenched the light of life in our souls. Ultimately, we have to be willing to integrate all the abuse, shame, and ignorance of our past before we can be free of it. Jesus is faithful; he never leads us faster into that awful truth about ourselves than we are able to go. But he does lead us there when we choose to belong to him. If we stop that relentless walk into knowing, our growth and healing stops until we're willing to walk again. Intellectualizing the subject is a form of denial. On the other hand, Maryann, I really do believe we can leave those we love who have killed themselves safely in the heart of Jesus. We can remember them through the reality of his love, and we can trust him to deal gently and justly and lovingly with them and with our memories of them. God really does bring us joy (as opposed to mere happiness) on the other side of sorrow and pain. Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, Jackpot on my question! Since laughing myself into a heap of tears to that last Humor post, oops, I just started again! I gotta go wash my face:-( Okay, composure is here:-) My question is now, finally, hopefully clear; Why is it that we are so many times SHOCKED by a close friend, friend, co-worker, child, etc. etc. when they commit suicide? We go through the why, why, why's! Then when our heads clear, our hind-sight kicks in and we say, "oooooh, if only I had been watching or paying attention, I would have seen the warning signs." I want to know why we can't get our front-sight kicked in gear and see the warning signs now before hind-sight kicks us. Why is this such a hard subject to talk about. It's hard for me to talk about, but I think I need to understand it better so I can possibly recognize a would be victim. Your sis....Maryann | ||
| Joni |
Maryann, Sometimes I think that we are so busy that we have no time to "see" our friends and loved ones. It takes time to develope a relationship with others. It takes prayer to "see" them as Jesus Christ does. It takes stopping business when we are with someone and really "being there" at the moment we are there with them. A babe in Christ who needs milk takes a lot of discipling. Something God's Church needs more of. Think of all the time it takes to nourish a baby, 24 hours a day with hardly a break. Babes need food, love, rest, etc.... When they grow they are weaned slowly off their Mother and hopefully unto God. There are times of letting go and times of holding. It takes the Spirit to know the difference. I pray for God's Spirit to lead us all. There are many hurts and pains in this world. The enemny is the father of lies and death. Our job is to lead others into reconcilition with God. Only He can truly heal the soul. We cannot enable others to depend on us we have to let God lead. It is a fine line. God will lead us one soul at a time. I have learned to do what I can where I am and trust God for my Christian family to do the same, where they are stationed I feel your pain. TRust God to lead you. Trust His Spirit to give you discernment in "seeing the warning signs" He will. It is obvious that you are a healing person, you want to heal others. Remember that God is the healer, you are the instrument used by God to lead others to His Word for true healing. Weather it be healing from self sin, from sin inflicted by others, or from the devil, Jesus came to set the captives free, and He will. Trust God. Joni | ||
| George |
Colleen, I have just started reading this thread. Unfortunatly this is an area that I know much about. I once asked an RCC priest, If I kill myself will I go to hell? His answer, How could God condem you for something that you are too ill to see is wrong. Jude, Just knowing that God would not send me to hell for killing myself was a great relief, I knew then that at least SOMEONE still loved me. One that wants to die does not necessarily want to go somewhere where it is better, they just don't want to be where it is not so bad. If they can know the difference they are close to presuming on Gods grace for their own betterment. That is something I don't think He will overlook. And I said I was not going to talk about anything personal!!! George | ||
| Lynn W |
Jude, just got a minute to write. I like what you posted. Don't know if any of you remember a few years back - a pastor (I believe it was John McArthur from California) was on the news being sued by the family of a loved one who had committed suicide after the Pastor (JM?) convinced him that suicide would/could be forgiven. They totally blamed him. Don't remember the outcome, but it should cause all to stop & think about their counsel. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lynn, I REALLY miss your posts. I believe you said you got a new job. Is that what's keeping you away? On the other hand, you seem to have continued to read. (Did you know you can print out a thread while off-line? At least, I can. That can save some time, as I can "read myself to sleep" with it after I have exited AOL and gone to bed.) God continue to bless, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
MORE ON THE SUICIDE QUESTION I want to quote a passage from Paul. In this passage I'm going to substitute the word "suicide" for the words "unrighteousness," "falsehood" and "evil," for if I ever believed anything, I believe that suicide is indeed unrighteous, evil and a great falsehood in that the person who commits suicide is affronting, denying, and destroying himself -- God's created temple in which God dwells. So, here goes (Romans 3:5-8, NIV): ^^^^^^^^^^^ But if our suicide brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my suicide enhances God's truthfullness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? Why not say -- as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say -- "Let us commit suicide that good [we'll go to a place that's not so bad] may result? Their condemnation is deserved. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Remember Waco! Remember Jonestown! Remember Heaven's Gate! Comments? Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all, I'm going to have to go back and re-read my post's to see where I'm un-clear in what I'm talking about and where I'm trying to go with this. This is a great discussion and a much needed one in my opinion. Better yet, can any of you come back with a short take on what you think I'm talking about or what my concerns are? Then that could help me figure out how to re-word my concerns. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
IF ANYONE READING THIS THREAD IS CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE, READ THIS FIRST: You canít use Scripture to justify your sin of suicide. Some have quoted Paul (Romans 6:20 NIV) -- ìWhere sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lordî ñ to justify suicide. They got it wrong. Paul was talking about the Law of Moses being added. And it was that, the Law, that increased the sin, not an increase in sinful actions or the world becoming more and more wicked. God increased sin by adding the Law so that his grace might abound. In other words, God created the Law in order to save us ñ just as he created everything else in order to save us. Sin is self-murder. The Law says, ìThou shalt not murder.î This includes self-murder. But where there is no Law, there is no sin and so therefore no such thing as self-murder. But there is a Law. And the purpose of this Law is to make you into a sinner. God made you a sinner in order to save you. He saves you by the grace of Jesus Christ on the cross. How can you then deny that grace by committing the sin of self-murder and think that God will reward you with ìheaven aboveî? Thanks for listening, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
ANTIDOTE FOR SUICIDAL THINKING Feel youíre living in the kingdom of hell? Think that if you commit the sin of killing yourself that God will forgive you and accept you into the kingdom of heaven? If so, think again! Consider Luke 17:20-21 NIV: ^^^^^^^^^^^ Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God [same as heaven] would come, Jesus replied, ìThe kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ëHere it is,í or ëThere it is, because the kingdom of God [heaven] is within you.î ^^^^^^^^^^^ If what Jesus says is true, then consider these points: 1. If you believe and trust Jesus, then youíre already living in the kingdom of heaven on earth right here and right now. 2. But if youíre living in the kingdom of hell, and thatís the reason you want to kill yourself, then you donít need to kill yourself to get into the kingdom of heaven. All you need to do is to accept Jesusí death in place of your own and allow his Holy Spirit to live within you. 3. God loves you and will show you what the kingdom of heaven is like here and now on earth. Itís not all roses, for weeds grow in it too. And there are goats mixed in with the sheep. But that doesnít mean it isnít the kingdom of heaven. And that doesnít mean it isnít pleasurable. For it is the agape love that you receive from other citizens of heaven and the agape love that you return to them that makes it pleasurable, and makes it the kingdom of heaven that it truly is! God bless always, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Joni, Somehow I missed you post earier when I quickly scanned the above. I think you understand where I'm coming from and actually got in my heart a bit. Oh yeh, I really enjoy your post's. Thank you | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, Now I'm really curious!? Are your last two post's in response to what you think I'm talking about or trying to say? Could you please condense to a few sentences what you think I'm saying? If the above post's were NOT in answer to my question, then I will understand. Thanks in advance....Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Maryann, No, I'm not really responding to what I think you're trying to say. I got worried because I'm told that "a few thousand" people regularly check in on this website. And with some of these posts, I thought some of those might be suicidal, since there are A LOT of suicidal people out there. I want to give them hope. I don't want to have them killing themselves because of speculations appearing on this website. I'm trying to take some responsibility here. Grace and peace to you, Jude |
