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Maryann
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all,

This is a new thread that I want to get going, but wont get into what I want to right now, as I have an emergency question.

Does anyone out there have experience with Muslims? I know a few basics, but, what are just a few "conversation" questions that I can ask to plant a seed of doubt in his mind? You know, get him to thinking. His background is Baptist from a very poor part of a black Chicago 'hood. He is very sincere, took his "oath" in 1994 and about 45 years old.

I'm a little frustrated because I have so many educational tapes on non-chrisrian and christian cults that help with witnessing; EXCEPT this one!

Thanks in advance........Maryann
Steve
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Maryann,

I studied Islam (along with many others). I read the Koran thoroughly, with commentary. I also met with Muslims and attended their worship on Friday. There are MANY similarities to SDAism and Islam. Theirs is a works righteousness. However, they'll deny that. They claim that no one is good but Allah, Blessed Be He.

One thing I would perhaps recommend. Compare the Bible stories that are contained in the Koran with the same stories from the Bible. There are changes. Then you have to ask, which is right? Of course, for the Muslim, Allah revealed the Koran to Muhammad. For the Christian and Jew, Yahweh revealed those writings to Moses.

Then you end up comparing Moses to Mohammad. Both were men. Both had problems. Both felt they were led by God.

Unfortunately, it all ends up with a personal choice. Do you want to believe Moses or Mohammad? Who is more reliable? There are great Koran scholars out there. I believe, there are GREATER Biblical scholars out there.

Don't be fooled into believing that Islam promotes violence. That is a fallacy imposed upon us by the mass media. It's the same as believing that all Christians are like Jerry Falwell (or Robert Folkenberg : )). Most Muslims are Sunni Muslims (that would be somewhat like Baptist Christians). The Muslims that the media always portrays to us are the Shiite Muslims (the more extremist and sometimes violent sect). The Sunni's are peaceful, loving people. Their idea of Jihad (Holy War) is the same as an Evangelicals perspective of Crusade (Holy War). For the Fundamentalist, Crusade means taking by force something you believe to be yours by Divine right. For the Evangelical, Crusade means to overcome the defenses of the unbelieving by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and win souls for the kingdom. For the Sunni Muslim, Jihad means to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. Loving acts to those despised by the world.

Oftentimes, a Christian will leave Christianity for Islam (one of the fastest growing world religions) because they find in Islam what they did not find in Christianity. I think one of the things that appealed to me about SDAism (the boundaries, the Law, the prohibitions) appealed to me because that was lacking in my childhood. But that doesn't mean it's right. It means that I was looking in the wrong place for that guidance and those boundaries.

When a Christian sees in Islam those boundaries and the guidance that he/she lacked in Christianity, it may have been because she/he was looking in the wrong place.

When a Christian truly finds Jesus Christ, that person finds all the Law, Guidance, Boundaries, etc. that he/she will need for eternity.

I would recommend, if you're serious about witnessing to a Muslim, that you get a good Koran with commentary. Similar to our NIV Study Bible. It has notes that throw some light, history, or other commentary on the passage.

Next I would visit the Walter Martin website. It's the Religious InfoNet. (Do a search, or I'll put it in a later posting.) I don't know if they have any resources there, but Martin did include a chapter in his book Kingdom of the Cults on Islam. It'll help introduce you to some of the specifics about Islam.

Then there is another website (I'll have to get it and post it later) that compares Christianity with Islam. I've not seen that that website takes a stand on either side, but simply promotes discussion between Christians and Muslims. It contains much good information, including humor, that will help gain an understanding of Islam.

Finally, Pray. Only God can break through those barriers that we put up. And Islam is truly a barrier to the gospel. There are those that will teach you that Allah and Yahweh are the same God (even some Christians teach this, including the Head Pastor of the La Sierra SDA church). But the Koran says Allah doesn't need a Son. It denies the need for a Savior. Muslims will get to Heaven based on their good works and the graciousness of Allah. Christians will get to heaven by the Grace of God, PERIOD.

Since I don't have any of my materials with me (it's all in storage in Escondido) I can't provide much more at this time. But I'll post again with some more information on Internet resources available regarding Islam.

God Bless,

Steve
Steve
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some links for further study of Islam.

Answering Islam:

http://www.answering-islam.org/

Islam Challenges Christianity:

http://members.aol.com/AIH/aqq4u/

Anti-Christian Muslim websites:

http://www.answering-islam.org/L_i-on-c.html

Christianity in Islam:

http://orion.bsuvc.edu/~msa/christ.html

Hope these help,

Steve
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2000 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the info. I will take a look at it. I got a book today that really looks interesting in a rather broad spectrum. I need to be VERY careful NOT to stretch myself out to much anymore or rather more stretched than I already am! What I need right now though, is a few simple questions (quick) to ask him as I may not be on the same job after Monday. What I need is some things to ask him that will get him to thinking and maybe questioning. I know I don't and can't expect to have any answers for him so soon. Maybe I was put where I am to plant that seed of doubt? And someone else can water it later. On a later post (and a new thread) I will tell how I got in contact with him. Pretty wild way that God works. So see if you can help me fake a few questions, or anyone else that reads this.

Thanks again.....Maryann
Steve
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Maryann,

Perhaps one place to start with questions would be as follows:

Muslims agree that Jesus was a great prophet. Ask your friend if he agrees with that. If he does, then go onto the next point . . .

Ask him if Jesus told the truth ALWAYS, or did He ever lie. If he believes that Jesus always told the truth, then the next point . . .

Ask him if Jesus ever claimed to be God. If he says that Jesus didn't claim to be God, then he needs to read the gospels, especially the gospel of John. Jesus claimed to be God directly, as in John 8:56-58, and John 10:31-33, and He claimed to have the authority to forgive sin. This, as any Muslim would agree, only God (Allah) could do.

Jesus, as C. S. Lewis pointed out, was either Lord, Lunatic, or Liar. Muslims make the mistake of saying that He is not Lord. The only other options open are that He was either a Lunatic (crazy) or a Liar (intentionally deceiving). A good Muslim would not say that Jesus was crazy. A good Muslim would not say that Jesus intentionally deceived. THEREFORE, He MUST have been Lord. You cannot say that Jesus was just a Good Man (as Jehovah's Witnesses). There have been many good men and women. Jesus is more than just a good Man. Jesus is Lord.

Jesus said that He would send the Comforter. Muslims claim that that means Mohammed. If it was Mohammed, why did Jesus' followers (the Apostles) seem to think that the Holy Spirit, in the book of Acts was the Comforter? (Read the first two chapters of Acts.)

Jesus trained the Apostles well. (We often look at their problems, because it gives us comfort. But we must look at the fact that they were trained by God Himself, in person.) The Apostles KNEW that the Holy Spirit was the one that Jesus was to send. They NEVER spoke of a human being that was to come (Mohammed). They ALWAYS knew, especially after He came, that the one to come was the Holy Spirit, not Mohammed.

Don't know if this gives you anything that you can use with your friend, but I would question your friend on these two points:

1. Jesus was either Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.

2. The Comforter that Jesus sent was the Holy Spirit, not Mohammed, as all the Apostles were witness to.

Steve
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

If you can't see my BIG grin, you are BLIND ;-)
Yes, thank you, that is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I will print that out and read and re-read my self to sleep with it so is is totally familiar to me. What I was going to ask him was, did Mohammed ever prophesy anything that came to pass. You really deepened and strengthened that question big time.

Maryann
Steve
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praise the Lord. I'm glad that my ramblings are going to be of some help.

One thought about what you were going to question him about, regarding "did Mohamed ever prophesy anything that came to pass." Be careful. Many people have prophesied things that have come to pass. That doesn't mean those prophecies are from God (Yahweh). Deuteronomy 13:1-10 is eye-opening.

Verses 1-3 say, "If a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder COMES TRUE, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

So even God's word says that there are others that will give signs and wonders (and prophecies) that will come to pass. It's then that we have to watch out. Because that's when they want to spring the next proposition on us. They'll say, "Then shouldn't we follow that God (Allah)?" Our response, "Absolutely not!" God's Word says we shouldn't follow that god, even if their prophecies come true.

Good luck with your friend tomorrow.

Steve
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2000 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi agiain,

I'm glad I mentioned that to you as I might be asking for help to remove a foot from my mouth tomorrow. I wont get NEAR that question till I understand it a bit better. You know, one can only up-date and process a certain amount at a time. I'll let you know how it goes.

Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 6:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

I couldnít post anything after 11 last night? FAF land just disappeared for a while!

(I don't want to bore you guys with post's like your fixiní to read right now, but this is my first of hopefully many witnesses to come.)

I went in armed with the print out of your ammunition you posted. At break, I translated it to my favorite "papyrus", the palm of my hand. I asked him (Jerome) to have lunch away from the rest of the gang and went to work. This was a real trip! Man, I really enjoyed it. Usually, when I try something like this, I'm going off the seat of my pants and have no clear goal. Boy, oh boy, I had a target and shot at it with all the bullets you gave me. Really, it wasn't that drastic. ;-)

I said, hey Jerome, tell me about what it was like when you were a kid in Chicago. He elaborated a bit. I asked him what it was that didn't really agree with him about religion. He said that God just wasn't real to him and that this thing about there being 3 Gods in one just didn't make sense. That was a puzzle through out his youth. Yeh, that's a real tuff one, I said, but the Bible says there are some things that are not revealed to us. He said that his problem with the trinity was, if there are 3 Gods and one is somewhere else, there is 1/3 God here and 2/3 God somewhere else. Good point, I said, and then drew in the dirt, 1+1+1=1 is mathematically wacked up and makes no sense, but jives with the Bible. 1+1+1=3 makes mathematical sense but doesn't work with the Biblical principle of the trinity. But, 1x1x1=1 makes Biblical sense and is mathematically sound, so that is what I choose to believe. He said that was a new one and it DID make sense. I asked if he was taught that God was a kind God. He said, well, sorta, but there was the hell, fire and damnation that is so prevalent in Baptists Churches. I said, man, I can really relate to that one. He asked me to elaborate, which I did a bit. He goes, whoa, you do know where I'm coming from! I said, yeh, I tossed religion at 18, but I've since learned that God is an awesome and kind God and he said he has learned that too. I asked him who Jesus was to him and he told me the story of all the great prophets through the ages etc etc and who God was to him. God is totally unique, none with Him and none greater than Him. I say, hmmmm, cool. Well, how does Mohammed stack up to the rest of the great prophets? He says, they were all equal. I asked if Mohammed was truthful, and he said of course he was. I asked if Jesus always told the truth and he ho-hummed a bit and finally said that since He was a great prophet he thought he would always tell the truth. I asked if Jesus would ever tell a lie and he ho-hummed a bit and finally said that he thought that He wouldn't lie since he told the truth. I asked if Jesus ever claimed to be God and I watched his forehead wrinkle up in thought. He said he didn't know as he really didn't spend to much time in the Bible. He said that he used to really enjoy reading Revelation because it gave him something to get his teeth in. I said, yeh, that's a cool chapter, but a lot of people are afraid of it and it was neat that he liked it. Back to Jesus claiming to be God. I rattled off the verses in John 8 and 10 and asked if he believed that. He was unsure as he was skeptical about the zillions of translations over the years and how true they remained to the original. This "Ken" thing, being very fresh in my mind was a great help. (Thank you Ken!) Anyway, he told me how the Koran is the same as it was when it was first written, and the Bible can't claim that. I told him that if you get all the "genuine" translations through the centuries and get all the discrepancies together in a pile, the Bible in it's entirety was, according to my memory, 98.7% to 99.2% jived, which is incredible considering the thousands of years it's been around. And to top that off, not one of the discrepancies involves a major doctrine! I asked him what he knew about the Bible and it's origins. He said he really didn't know, so that was my Q-up. I explained in short how, during about 1600 years, from Moses to John, 40 guys had their fingers in the ink and wrote 66 books that all jived. There were also many ancient secular writings that authenticized the Bible. He didn't know that. I asked him if he knew what the point of the OT was and he was unclear except that historically it was more "on" that the NT as it was the Jews history. Yeh, it really has the Jews history down pat, I said. But to me, the OT from Moses to Malachi points and prophesies to the time that the time changed from BC to AD and that was the 33 years that my Savior Jesus and his prophet Jesus lived on this earth. I said that I was pulling a figure out of my re-memory that I was unsure of, but I thought that there were over 700 timed and specific prophesies of the coming of the Lord Jesus. And if it wasn't but 10 prophecies, the mathematical impossible-ness of 10 coming to pass would still be enough proof for me. This guy is really getting thoughtful now. I asked him what the NT was about and he said that it was kind of a history of Jesus' life on earth and of His disciples. Yeh, that's a really good start on it, I said, but it goes a little further. The Gospels give 4 different views of basically the same thing so that no one has an excuse not to relate to at least one of them, which is Jesus' life and death. The letters are all the admonitions and over and over pointings to Salvation and the Grace extended to all those people who believe, for all times down through the ages written by mostly Paul and then Peter, James, John and Jude, and all their stuff jives too. Then I said, you know all about Revolution, don't you and he said, yeh. I said that all these books point back to the 33 years Jesus lived and they too, jive with the OT to jive together to point one thing, Jesus, our prophesied Savior.

Lunch was almost over, so I grabbed a couple gears, and told him that I believed when Jesus left, He left us our greatest asset and helper, the Holy Spirit and all the guys in the NT jived on that issue too. He said, he believed that, that was Mohammed. I said, I know personally that He left the Holy Spirit, because when I understood that only the sin of unbelief kept me away from God and I believed and accepted Jesus finished work for me, there were changes in my life that no human could have done. I gave him a 2 minute testimony of some changes. I told him the Holy Spirit was a nice guy too because He doesn't convict me on everything at once. He accomplishes some victories in one area and then nails me in new areas after the rawness eases up on the first ones.

Well, now that lunch was over, God will put someone in Jeromeís path when the time's ready. I really hope it's me. This was a real trip for me and the first time I was confident that the right words would come out.

This thing today was like; where did all those words come from? It was like I was in China and suddenly spoke Chinese! The words ran out of my mouth like most of the post's I do, run out the end of my fingers! Tell me, anyone, has this happened to you?

Jude, what do I do about some of these sentences that are a paragraph long??? Are they okay that way?!

Still riding a high wave of happiness....Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

So glad you're witnessing.

About long paragraphs: What you are writing is okay. It's your expression. You can work on your English if you have the time and inclination. Your reward will be that more people will be able to understand you better. But better English isn't the most important thing. What you're doing -- witnessing for Christ -- is the most important thing.

Blessings,

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jude,

Thanks for the reply. :-) I needed that. This witnessing thing used to terrify me. But now the fear is leaving. That is, in part, thanks to all of you guys encouraging me on. I want to properly and sincerely thank you for the encouragement you've given me over the months. I hope you will keep it up. Not to scratch my back, but to help me in gathering knowledge. Humans are weak creatures of themselves and friends/brothers/sisters can really go along way in the encouragement needed.

As far as the writing being okay. I would like to do better. I don't expect you to be a coach, but, I would appreciate a tip now and then. Sooooo, here's my 4 fold question of the week. Where do I muddle up most? In the yard long sentences? Or the yard long paragraphs? Or both?

Thanks again and,

Peace and Blessings to you too........Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spelling, grammar and punctuation. But again, I'm not trying to say that improving these "mechanics," as they are known in the wordsmithing trade, will result in improved witnessing.

For all his education, debating skill, and even poetic and allegorical ability, St. Paul was not a great grammarian. I discovered that when I studied Koine Greek, read him in that ancient language (in the Textus Receptus), and struggled to translate him fairly and honestly into American English.

Keep on doing what you're doing without becoming overly concerned with your English usage.

Blessings,

Jude
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

It looks like you allowed the Holy Spirit to witness through you. Sometimes, when we find we're speaking "Chinese", as you say, it's because we've put ourself aside and have allowed Him to work with us. That's the real speaking in tongues, speaking in a way that the other person can understand us.

It looks like you gave your friend some stuff to chew on. I'm sure it'll help grease the gears for when the next person comes along to witness to him.

I agree with Jude, although a little brushing up on grammar could help (it could help all of us!) don't be overly concerned. It's the witnessing that's important. Did you know that there are people in some places in the United States that won't listen to an "Educated" preacher? It's because the "educated" ones use all the fancy words and high-falooting language. I've heard some of their preachers. It's amazing, yet those people really love their preachers and are brought closer to Christ because of their down-home language.

Don't try to become something that you're not. God made you to be you. God will use you in amazing ways if you allow Him. Sure, brush up on your grammar. Make your paragraphs more concise (although that's something that I'm guilty of not doing sometimes). But don't try to be something that God has not created. He wants yielded vessels. He never said He needs grammatically correct vessels.

God Bless,

Steve
Plain Patti
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, Maryann, two of the greatest prophets in history were clumsy speakers: Moses tried to avoid his calling by saying he was slow of speech, and Isaiah said he could not speak for the Lord because he was a man of unclean lips. The way I look at it is this: God once saved Israel with the jawbone of an ass. If he could use that jawbone, then perhaps he can use mine also.

On the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell mightily, the disciples began to speak freely. Did they all of a sudden become great orators? Actually, what happened was miraculous; they spoke, but the people heard in their own languages. So I believe it is with us. It is our duty to speak; it is up to the Holy Spirit to enable others to "hear."

God bless you!
Patti
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't sure where to put this one. But, since I got this from one of my favorite former bosses, this will just have to do!


I've learned-
that we don't have to change friends
if we understand that friends change.

I've learned-
that no matter how good a friend is,
they're going to hurt you every
once in a while and you must forgive
them for that.

I've learned-
that true friendship continues to grow,
even over the longest distance.

I've learned-
that you can do something in an instant
that will give you heartache for life.

I've learned-
that you should always leave loved ones
with loving words. It may be the last
time you see them.

I've learned-
that you can keep going
long after you can't.

I've learned-
that we are responsible for what we do,
no matter how we feel.

I've learned-
that either you control your attitude
or it controls you.

I've learned-
that heroes are the people
who do what has to be done
when it needs to be done,
regardless of the consequences.

I've learned-
that money is a lousy way of keeping score.

I've learned-
that my best friend and I can do anything
or nothing and have the best time.

I've learned-
that sometimes the people you expect
to kick you when you're down,will be the
ones to help you get back up.

I've learned-
that sometimes when I'm angry
I have the right to be angry,
but that doesn't give me
the right to be cruel.

I've learned-
that maturity has more to do with
what types of experiences you've had
and what you've learned from them
birthdays you've celebrated.

I've learned-
that it isn't always enough to be
forgiven by others. Sometimes you
have to learn to forgive yourself.

I've learned-
that no matter how bad your heart is broken
the world doesn't stop for your grief.

I've learned-
that our background and circumstances
may have influenced who we are,
but we are responsible for who we become.

I've learned-
that you shouldn't be so eager to find out a
secret. It could change your life forever.

I've learned-
that two people can look at the exact
same thing and see something totally .
different.

I've learned-
that your life can be changed in a matter of
hours by people who don't even know you.

I've learned-
that even when you think you have no more
to give, when a friend cries out to you
you will find the strength to help.
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This post has been sitting in my ëputer since early May with a few paragraphs added in June. I would suggest that you only read this if you have a little time as it really got long as it went around the horn.

Iíve been thinking about something and have been putting it together in my mind for a while. Sooo, please try to understand what Iím going to say and why Iím going to write this.

I will be as tactful and tasteful as possible in this endeavor. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of Christians (loose broad view of Christians) and in particular the JW, UPC and SDA types come from a rather sterile environment. (Please keep in mind that this is just ìMYî view). Take SDAs for example, the recommended choices for the young gals are; wife, teacher, music, nurse, doctor, pastor-ette, etc. For the guys the recommended choices are; pastor, theologian, teacher, professor, doctor, etc. All these careers are wonderful and noble and I would NOT want anyone to think I am belittling them in any way. The military is not encouraged, sports of course is out, as are a lot of ìworldlyî things like dancing, spectator sports and in general, mingling with the general population. Would you agree that Iím making correct general assumptions?

Case and point(s). Collegedale, TN., Collegeplace, WA., Angwin, CA., I know from personal experience are their own ìlittle communitiesî of mainstream SDAism. When you are a member of those communities, you are somewhat/very much isolated from the ìREALî world. When you are an SDA outside of those communities, there still is a certain amount of isolation, in that the families obviously go to an SDA church and the kids, if possible go to an SDA school. The kids then if necessary, end up in a boarding school, then off to an SDA college and/or get married and the isolation cycles again with a new generation.

This is what I mean by a sterile environment. Would you agree that in America, the above scenario is in the minority. In other words, the majority of American Christians enjoy much more variety and freedom than do SDAs? Would you agree that the SDAs have had minimal consistent contact with these majority Christians?

Now what about the non-Christians? Would you agree that the SDAs have had very, very little serious and consistent shoulder rubbing with non-Christians? And I am NOT referring to door to door colporteuring.

I was raised in that sterile environment. Actually, it was even more sterile than mainstream SDAism as I was in a very legalistic offshoot of Adventism. At 18, I was rudely baptized into the world. What a culture shock to me! Though I never (praise God) got physically deep into the drug and alcohol scene, I was in it by exposure constantly plus a lot of violence and gross vulgarity from that day till TODAY.

**Note SHRINKS CALL THIS ISOLATIONISM. With this idea, isolationism can be the catalyst that makes family abuse a safe thing. You know, the wife can be beat regularly and the kids molested and who is there outside the remnant to help them?

So, let me introduce you to just a few days in non-sterile ìMY WORLDî.

Monday morning: New job location in a major hotel in Las Vegas NV. I walk up as if I own the joint (ëcause if I were to slink in, I would be preyed upon like a vulture on a 3 legged rabbit!) and check out who Iím working for, you know, see how many of the guys Iíve worked for or with before. Well, out of the 4 or 5 sub-contractors, I know a dozen guys and about 3 dozen know me. Itís sometimes embarrassing and frustrating to have guys come up and say îhiî and know my name and I canít even place them or have forgotten their names. (I got to naming the guys something that I thought fit their personalities, usually cartoon names. That really helped!)

Iím sort of like the fly in the ointment, I stand out as Iím about the only gal around town that is an equipment operator. Itís not unusual to be the only gal of my trade with 50 to 500 guys of all trades on a job. Enough of that.

I check out the job site with my employer and find that what we are doing is; putting new underground plumbing in one of the kitchens, food storage rooms, bathrooms and dining room that was shut down by the health dept. Another company is doing the demo work; tearing out all the booths, tables, kitchen stoves, counters, ceilings and concrete floors.

We will have to dig in really small areas with a lot of other equipment around us. Also, there are a lot of misc things that one has to make sure they donít hit, like POWER. Misc. fixtures, compressors, generators, walls, columns, waterlines, extension cords, water hoses and most important PEOPLE, PEOPLE AND MORE PEOPLE!

People get used to the noise of everything going on and start getting numb to it. I have to really watch all around me to NOT run over the numb dummies that are everywhere. You would be horrified if you actually were to observe a job and see guys kneeling on the ground working and me working right next to them, driving back and forth just inches from their feet. These guys have gotten to the point, if they have been around me a while, that they will NOT move even if I touch or rub against them with my machine or the tires!

It is an awesome responsibility to have these guys lives, or at least limbs in my hands! Sometimes Iíll lay awake at night wondering when a day might come that has a tragic ending. These guys will walk under an unstable load that I may have up in the air when Iím on a large piece of equipment! What if the chain breaks? What if the hydraulics break? Iíve had that happen! I just have to put my foot down and donít allow anyone under what I think is an unstable load or a situation Iím not comfortable with. If there is an accident, itís my hind side! ëCause I have the key!

Then there are the guys that are high on drugs. There really is a lot of that in construction! Iíve seen some really absurd, stupid things happen that were drug related. You really have to watch out for these people as they are so unpredictable. Iíll be headed one way and in the blink of an eye, theyíve stepped in my path and I have to either dodge them or slam on the brakes. You need eyes on the back of your head because as you dodge someone or something on one side, someone else does something stupid on the other! Some days, it happens a bunch of times and others, it never happens. So you are always pumped up and on the ball.

Now, there is the matter of the ìlittle green housesî! You know, the ìouthousesî! Iíll try to be nice here. These guys work hard, play hard, party even harder and sometimes come to work sick in the morning. When I say sick, I mean SICK! Most make it to the little green house, but, then miss where ìwhat everî is supposed to go! If they are not sick, they chew tobacco and just love to spit on the floor, seat, toilet paper and what ever else catches their fancy.

My bosses have always been sensitive to me over this situation and 80% of the time Iím able to find an alternative bathroom. A lot of the times the rules are no construction workers inside the hotels/buildings, but I will go ask management and never have been refused. :-)

Then there are the interesting ìsmellsî on jobs like ìthisî job. When dealing with plumbing, there are always broken pipes. On this job, we are putting in all new plumbing and the old gets broken as we dig for the new. Do you have any idea whatís in those broken pipes? Yep, you guessed it, sewer! There are exhaust fans put on these jobs that are ìunderî existing buildings to draw the smells and dust out. You always have to keep your eye on the fans because some ìmoronî is always unplugging them. When that happens, you donít always notice it right away because the stench just sorta ìgrowsî on you!

I went into the above so you would understand the type of work, type of people and the work area Iím in and then you can ìguessî at the mentality of some. Notice that I said ìsomeî. I have met some of the most wonderful Christians on the job. They were some of the contributing influences to me that helped bring me back out of that world. There are also wonderful non-Christians on the job too!

I feel that I need to remind you that know, and others that donít know, that I, at one time could make a sailor blush. Thanks to so many factorís including the influence of the Godly men I met on the jobs over the years and the work of the Holy Spirit, this curse has been taken away from me! For you that donít understand construction, swearing etc. is the language spoken and spoken to a science in the same way that doctors, vets, scientist etc. have their own language.

I always could pick out the Christian on a job. I was very drawn to them. We would talk and each time they witnessed so beautifully to me. Not so much by what they said, but by what they DIDNíT say. So non-critical! Just a loving portrayal of the Lord. Did they have long drawn out faces? No! Did they have fun and pull pranks? Yes! These were REAL people. Iíd never experience such a thing as a ìnon-critical Christianî! That was an oxymoron as far as I was concerned!

Now, back to this particular job. My boss is an owner/operator of his company. He likes to stay ìsmallî. Less headaches, less employees etc. He has one older, very good backhoe operator that heís had working for him for 6 or 7 years. When he needs another operator, he always checks to see if Iím needing a job and if so, I work anywhere from a week to 6 or 8 months for him, depending on how long a job he got. Anyway, Bernie says that it is to bad that I donít operate a little backhoe that is an attachment to a little bobcat tractor. If I did, heíd be able to keep me busier. I BTW, have not wanted to work very much in the last year and I really appreciate my boss being able to provide that luxury!

Well, on the third day on the job, the other operator had to go to another job and I was on my own with the bobcat. No problem, piece of cake. No for long! The sub-contractor, Scott says, ìgo fire up that other bobcat with the backhoe attachment!î I said, ìyeah right, Iíve not run one of those but an hour some years ago!î He says, ìuh huh, go get it!!î I say,îyezah bozah,î and go to digging for a couple hours.

Next day Bernie shows up and watches me and says that I should lock up the wheels (brakes) and the machine wouldnít slide all over the place while Iím trying to dig. I tried that after break and, wow, what a difference. The guys in the ditch could tell the difference. I shut down and said, ìyeah, I was pretty dumb not to have locked up the wheels, Bernie shouldnít ever have had to tell me something that simple. They donít call us ëdumb broadsí for nothiní!î The guys hoot and holler and say, ìwell at least she knows sheís a dumb broad. I wonder if sheíd come to my house and teach my wife that she is dumb too?î I say, ì why, sure I would. When do you want me to come over and teach her that she has to be a ëdumb broadí so she can communicate with you at your dumber than dumb brain capacity?î We all fall out laughing and, back to work we go, with the poor guys just shaking their heads, knowing they stepped into that trap and got had!

I mention the above so you understand how a gal has to be on the ball at all times in a tough manís world. Any anger or disgust would seal my demise. Iíve seen it happen many times. On the other hand, that is the typical way that I deal with the guys. It is just as natural as breathing to me. The end result is that I have their total respect and the guy I just ìhammeredî will defend me when some jerk from another company that doesnít know me, makes an inappropriate comment.

As Iím digging, the guys tell me that there is power ìsomewhereî and to be careful!? No. 1...Careful on a bobcat with a backhoe attachment is not easy. It is NOT designed to be ìsmoothî. It is very jerky and hard to control, even for someone that runs one all the time. No. 2...Iím NOT digging unless I know just where it is and how ìbigî the power is!

I have the key, so use my option to ìshut downî. The electricians are summoned with their ìwandî and locate the underground power, signal and announce that it is a big one, 4160! Thatís nearly 40 times bigger than what runs your vacuum cleaner!! That wont curl your hair, it will fry your hair and you too! And they say that it is NOT in concrete, so I really need to be careful. Yeah right, my eye, I need to be careful! Iím on a squirrelly piece of equipment Iíve only had a few hours running experience and Iím gunna expose 4160! The guys like to lean on their shovels and watch rather that dig! The journeyman plumber says to me, ìDIGî!

You have to understand that I hate electricity. I donít even like turning on a light switch or plugging in a vacuum, much less digging in the ìunknownî! I have dug around big power and gas with a regular, smooth backhoe, but not one of these! So I tell the guy, ìokay, Iíll dig, you just stand here and hang on to my leg while Iím digging, and when I hit that 4160, weíll go to heaven together!î He says, ìheaven, Iím going to hell because thatís where all my friends are going!î I say, ìwell since Iím going to heaven and youíre going to hell, you had better get your shovel in gear unless you want to go with me!î Needless to say the shovels gets busy!

Okay, you say, whatís the point of this nonsensical bazaar story? Here it is:

If I was working with any of you guys like Bill, Bruce, David, Max, Richard or Steve and ever suggested that you hang on to my leg for any reason, I would be ìso far out of lineî in would not be funny! It would be totally inappropriate and probably considered a ìpassî or ìcome onî. BUT, in my world, it made a very, very strong point. If I dig and die, so are you! It was in NO way a ìpassî or ìcome onî. In fact, it gave me the opportunity to let the guys know in ìtheirî language that I knew I was going to heaven and was a Christian. Now, if there is an opening, I can get in some more ìshotsî, or I can make an opening and say something to bring the conversation to something in the line of religion.

Did I lower my standards by saying that? Absolutely not in MY situation!

Now at lunchtime on Friday there is something called a check pool. Everybody puts in, lets say $5, and when everyone gets their check, they multiply their check number by an agreed upon multiplier and whoever has the best poker hand wins the check pool. Well, one guy wasnít playing. Scott asked me if I wanted to play his check and I said sure! Later, Scott told me that Jerome didnít gamble his check because he was an Islam guy. Now remember back a couple months when I got to witness to Jerome? Why did I have the opportunity to even know that he was into the Islam thing? Because I played his check in the check pool! Is it wrong to gamble? In general, yes! In this case, no! I believe Paulís principle about becoming all thing to all men so as to be able to expose them to saving grace, has been demonstrated here. My gambling Jeromeís paycheck was the thing that gave me the opportunity to witness to him!

Soooo, are you seeing how much different my world is from yours?

Now comes another thing that is so tough to deal with in the work place. In the more traditional work places like an office worker, teacher, medical person etc., etc., there are a bah-zillion rules of proper conduct between male and female employees and employers. There are classes, memoís, bookletís etc., etc., that people have to WASTE their time on to LEARN how NOT to say the wrong thing to the wrong person. In the last few years it has grown into a totally ìretardedî set of canít do or say this or that rules.

In the mainstream USA as we know it today, if some guy says he thinks a gal is attractive to him and he dares tell her that, he can lose his job for sexual harassment if she doesnít like him or she has standards that wont allow her to run around. I think that the whole system now is stupid. People are sometimes more worried about what they can and canít say in conversation than what the responsibilities of their jobs are.

DONíT misunderstand me on something!!!!!! There is no way that a guy or a gal should get pushy or vulgar or in making a ìpassî in the workplace. They should never stalk. I am NOT talking about this kind of thing. Iím talking about plain, run of the mill conversation with the ìotherî gender that can include natural compliments.

Iíve seen gals come into the world Iím in and be in a conversation with a guy, he give her a genuine compliment and see her go ballistic! Sheíll curse him really bad, tell him things about his mother, tell him all he wants is to get her in the sack and simply make a south end of a north bound donkey out of herself! And do it so half the job can hear it, then go tell everyone and threaten to turn him in for sexual harassment! That is the time I stay really far away from her like she has the chicken pox. The present system has taught her to act like that.

Iíll draw my whole point together here:

Christianity so some degree and cults to a much greater degree, in their effort to be in a ìsterileî isolated environment have made boundaries that are not healthy. These boundaries have built massive walls instead. These walls have not just kept the world out of their lives, itís kept them out of the world. It is stale and moldy inside this un-scalable wall. Sadly, these people donít know how to get out and get fresh air and smell the flowers. When they are around the people of the world, all the world can see is a giant wall walking around.

Iím sure this will draw some criticism but the ìold daysî of the Bible are different then today. God wanted the children of Israel to ìbe separateî from the world. What was one of the last things that Jesus told His disciples? Go out into the world teaching..... Paul seemed to be going out a lot too among a host of others.

I am convinced that very strict and isolated childhoods are self-defeating and self-destructive. I donít believe that lack of availability teaches self-control. I believe that part of the, ìfruits of the Spirit,î are self-control. Donít think for one minute that Iím saying that we should throw our children and ourselves indiscriminately into the world. Iím talking about normal to our time and circumstances. Our children need to know at an appropriate age what to expect out there.

When I got my baptism into the world, I was in no way prepared. My mom was not in any way capable of preparing me either. Her hope was that I would follow EGWís council and all would be well. For myself and many like me, we found we had no clue as to what we just walked into. It was a shock! I can only be thankful to God for somehow rescuing me from the life I used to live.

As SDAís, we all had so many legalistic boundaries. Boundaries are VERY important. Some are permanent and God given. Others are temporary and for our learning.

We all had discipline too. Like boundaries, discipline is a very important learning tool. But permanent discipline is not a learning tool. It becomes a torture. Can you imagine spanking your child indefinitely or putting them on restriction for the rest of their life? Discipline teaches living skills. Unfortunately, so many ìisolationistî types of religions send their young people out a bit short in the living skills department.

I know a family that wont let their kids go swimming because they donít want them to see the opposite sex in bathing suits! What are they going to do the night before the kids turn 18, pluck their eyes out?????! We live in a wicked world. We are ALL wicked to the core. But as Christians, I believe we can, through the power and grace of God face these evils and conquer them.

In the Old Testament, we are told, you should not murder, you should not covet and you should not commit adultery. The New Testament says the same thing yet adds that we should not even ìthinkî any of those thoughts. In thinking about that, I believe that we are given an impossible task to show that it is impossible for us to fulfil the law ourselves.

When we think angry, covetous or adulterous thoughts (and we will), I believe these are reminders that we are hopelessly wicked and lost on our own and the cue to face the issues and conquer them with the power we are promised. (Now donít think Iím talking about deliberately putting yourself in ìstupidî situations and expecting God to miraculously bail you out!!!)

As I said earlier, this loooooooooog post has been on ice since May and June and it has only been since last Sunday that I have been able to bring it out and finish it. The reason is because the pastor told a story about his dogs and the back yard. With that said, I will unashamedly steal his idea and expand it.

His story in short form was: He has one dog that will stay in the yard even if the gate is open and one dog that will be miles away by the time the open gate is discovered.

Here is what hit me. I was a dog in a very high fenced yard that had no possibility of me getting out (as a kid raised in SDAism.) I could bark and jump forever and NEVER get out. I could hear a lot of commotion and my mind ran wild trying to figure out what those sounds were.

One day the gate was left open and I made my escape. I was attacked by a pack of dogs with long teeth. I had no idea what to do but run and run and run and run.

Finally, there were some friendly dogs that seemed to befriend me. With my lack of experience I trusted them. BIG MISTAKE! They were just using me for bait. With big chunks of hide hanging off me, I made a run for it and ran some more.

Finally the dogcatcher (God) caught me and I went to the pound (Church) and got cleaned up (saved) and an adoptive family came and adopted me (Church family) and showed me unconditional love.

Now I have this wonderful yard. But wonders of wonders, there are no gates or wall, just open walkways. I have peace in my yard. I don't want to leave my yard.

So, what is my yard. It is that area that surrounds me that God now lives in. I donít need walls, I got God! Do I need discipline? Uuuuh huuuh, of course. Does it last forever? Noooooooo! Godís not that way!

When I realized that I had an area that surrounded me that God lives in was several months ago when I still lived in Nevada. A co-worker friend of mine stopped by that was the nicest and most gorgeous man in Nevada and out of the blue suggested that we have an affair. (he was in no way rude) I did NOT expect this and was really surprised. I thought a minute and finally said something to the effect of: ìWooooow, thank you for the compliment, that really made me feel like a million bucks! I really think you are a nice guy and I really like you, not to mention that you are about the best looking guy in town. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me, Iím a Christian and no matter how appealing this is, I CANíT. I would love to remain your friend and will always think the world of you.î What a situation to witness from!!! We both know the other ones feeling and guess what? The situation IS DE-FUSED! And we are still friends without tension.

I can tell you that, before God, I never had a regret about this God prodded decision. I am happy in my own yard and never lost a minutes sleep over this. I am able to face a situation like this without wavering or running. I donít need to put up a wall and the only boundary I have is that area that surrounds me that God lives in. Man, what more of a boundary do I need!

Onward and upwardÖÖÖMaryann
Max
Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for sharing, Maryann. I think your story
shows you are growing in grace.
Joni
Posted on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,
This is the first time I have had the time to read this story. During the week, I only have about 20-30 minutes in the am to get on my computer. Which, by the way, is doing a funny thing lately. First my husband's did it and now mine. After I exit from the net, it starts to dial to get back on all by itself and I have to cancel it. Also after I use it,when I come back later to use my computer I have to reboot it because it won't work. Strange.

I liked your conclusion. "I donít need to put up a wall and the only boundary I have is that area that surrounds me that God lives in. Man, what more of a boundary do I need!"
I hear you. One thing that I have been blessed with is to learn that God knows me and sees me each and every minute. I do not have to make excuses or try to pretend I am something I am not or that I wish I could be. I am me. God made me for a reason. He has a plan for me. I have a relationship with Him. He grows me. I am not another person inside my house verses outside my house. I can breath and relax in His arms. I don't have to say beautiful prayers outloud for all to hear and be impressed. I don't have to have any jobs at church, teach a class, stand up front, etc, to show that I am holy. I am holy because Jesus died on the cross for me. What a relief. No walls, no fences, no pretensions. Just me loving to do what God wants me to do. Wanting to share His sacrifice and love with others. I don't want to change anybody's diet, or day of worship. I want to introduce them to Jesus, My Lord and Saviour. Yes I fail at times but He always prods me to make things right with those whom I've wronged.

I guess when I think about it. Humans are so frail. So weak. So easily lead astray. So arogant. So filled with self. So tender. What a mass of contridictions. So easily lost. I want to show God's love to all so that they can be peaceful and have eternal life. So they can find a reason for living. So they can have Him to depend on and not themselves. So they can be healed forever from this awful place and it's hardness. To do this I need to become the other person. I need to see what they are seeing. I need to understand them and where they come from. I know My Lord does this for me.

Maryann, you are doing this. You know where your peers are coming from and you are living among them, and yet letting God shine through. Sometimes I complain to myself about the way some of the people I work with talk. I don't understand why one of the nurses, is getting a "boob" job when she is a beautiful girl, young, probably about 28. She wants to be a "C" cup!!! MY heart goes out to her. What makes her want to change her body??????Does she think this will make her happier??? I don't know her that well, but maybe in time we can have an opportunity to talk and I can find out why. Maybe God will provide me to share His love and peace and the joys of being His. Maybe not. In the meantime I want to understand and not judge her.

By the way. We were in Victorville the last weekend of Aug. but due to my husband's change in work schedule we had to leave for home earlier and so we did not get the chance to visit the church there in the Redlands. We were dissapointed.

Anyway, Maryann, I learned from your post here. Have a great day.

Joni
Maryann
Posted on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Joni,

Awesome post! There are some things and concepts in my post that I would really think are foreign to some.

The thing about having different standards around different people is what I would think could trouble some.

I guess that the thing that Max talks about us needing/commanded to "judging others" comes into play here. I'm NOT judging hypocritically, I'm judging where I think they are and how best to witness to them. With others, I judge on what type of conversations are appropriate, whether Christian people or not and decide what is okay. I made a wrong judgement recently and really learned a valuable lesson. It is all about learning and growing.

Maryann
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Always be prepared to give an answer to EVERYONE WHO ASKS YOU to give this reason for the hope you have." 1 Pet. 3:15.

People who are in ANY CULT need a Christian
witness. Paul was distressed by pagan alters
in Athens. Paul had some knowledge about his
audience and used the information to witness to
them. God blessed him with results! Acts 17:16-34

Being like Paul, while STILL being yourself! We can be like Paul, and God will bless our results!

AMEN?
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen!
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Jtree!
The more we REST in JESUS, the more we can "be ourself!!"

HE gives us that CONFIDENCE and ASSURANCE that we are BELOVED and ACCEPTED by HIM, no matter what others in various cult religions may believe...

It is freeing!! to live in this reality... Praying for guidance, we can be impressed to know when to be silent and when to speak up for Christ. Still knowing that, even when OUR "witnessing" is imperfect, HIS all- sufficient Perfection covers us!

Grace always,
Cindy

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