| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
QUESTIONS THAT NAG, BUG YOU, BUZZ AROUND YOUR HEAD, THREATEN TO STING YOU, MAKE YOU SWEAT AND SLAP AND _______. BUT YOU WOULDN'T EVER TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN, NOW WOULD YOU? Doubts and questions that don't ever seem to go away, that linger like a tedious argument around the edges of your mind? For hours? Days? Months? Years? Decades? And in some cases a whole lifetime? GET RELIEF! ASK THEM HERE! After all, the FAFers who will be answering your questions are all graduates summa cum laude (ìwith highest praiseî) from the SDA church. Now how, you ask, can they ALL be summa cum lauds if each graduating class can only boast ONE summa cum laude per graduation? Thatís easy. Itís because in our FAF alumni association Christ is the only summa cum laude. And Christ is in each one individually and in the fellowship as a whole. That's how they ALL can be summa cum lauds together. Because Christ in them ñ each one -- is their ONLY summa. Iím sure theyíd be delighted to answer your questions, humbly to the best of their ability. And to share with you some of their own graduation experiences. Itís safe here. You donít have to reveal you identity. Nobodyís looking at who you are, anyway, unless you yourself choose to tell. You might even be a conference president. We donít care about picky-picky-picky stuff like that. Wear a screen name if like. All you have to do is to be honest and open and sincere. No tricksters, though, please. That's because those whoíve tried trickery in the past have learned that their deceptions don't work very well around here. And even if they do, their deceptions donít last very long. And wasn't it none other than Honest Abe who said, "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time." A good and wise man, old Abe. So dive on in, the waterís fine! In Christ alone, grace alone and faith alone, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
HERE'S ONE I'VE HAD TO GET YOU STARTED: Adventist evangelists -- from William Miller and James White on down to Ken Cox, Doug Batchelor, Dwight Nelson and Morrie Venden -- have always preached and still preach: "Jesus is coming, get ready!" Right? That means they believe the people they're trying to evangelize AREN'T ready for Jesus to come. Right? And that means that the Bible text that says -- "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess him with your mouth, and you will be saved," -- doesn't give you all the information you need to secure your salvation in Jesus Christ alone! Doesn't it? People need something more! Now, don't you really really believe that? Down deep? People need something more, and Adventist evangelism is going to GIVE IT TO THEM! Hold on, I haven't come to my question yet. Adventist evangelists are telling people who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior that they're not ready. Are you still with me? That means Adventists don't believe that ALL people who have already accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior are necessarily ready. Right? All right, here's my question: WHAT ARE THEY STILL LACKING? What is that "more" that they need? I'll give you my answer: Sinlessness. That "more" is perfection -- sinlessness, as George has so rightly pointed out. And not just any sinlessness, either. A very special kind of sinlessness called, "Standing before God without a Mediator." THAT kind of sinlessness. The worst, most terrifying kind, because it's not Christ's sinlessness. It's Christless sinlessness! Simple and brutal as a pacing, roaring lion seeking whom he may devour! Am I wrong about this? If I am, please set me straight. But if my answer IS correct, then your church is negatively judging those same people -- judging Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. Right? Even though they HAVE confessed Christ and still hold him in their hearts with a grip they won't let go. They're saying these precious Christ-confessing people need to stand WITHOUT Christ, to stand in THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, in order to be ready for Jesus to come! Am I right? Or wrong? Your ansewrs are solicited. Standing before God NAKED -- save only for the seamless robe of Christ's righteousness as white as new fallen snow upon a midnight clear, all inextricably interwoven threads of justification, sanctification and perfection, I am, Jude | ||
| BMorgan |
Okay Jude, When should I expect to have my mind washed out of twenty six years of deception and indoctrination from the SDA theology? Every thing that can be shaken (in my mind) is not only shaken by knocked over. Some days I think "Good, I am no longer a sda I will not fuss I will just forget about it and begin learning anew." However, it seems like every part of me was tainted with some false belief. I keep getting mad. Then I have a friend say, "Oh, you get mad because you are walking in the Flesh. All you have to do is forget it and move on." How do I do that?? Answer please longstanding FAFers. I am even afraid to share anything scripturally with anyone anymore, for I am afraid it may be wrong. I have been so accustomed to having a tidy neat package of truth ready to be handed out, so it disturbs me greatly for one by one every TRUTH I held so dearly is smashed before me. Again I am asking, for some comforting words that I will be made whole. When should I expect to be walking as firm, strong and healthy as you guys seem to be? I thought I gave the Lord my spiritual pride, but it seems that the cloak is wrapped tighter than I thought. BMorgan, Former Adventist Bodily left fellowship 18 months Mentally-began leaving 6 months ago Now what??? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Morgan, George says, "keep on truckin'"! He also says to, "share, no matter what, you might actually be right and if not, don't feel bad 'cause that's the way you will learn!" Also, he thinks that Henry Ford said, "he that fails the most, stands to gain the most because you're out there trying." Also, "I count failure as one of my friends." Pretty good thinking for a guy, don't you think? What do I think? You have to lighten up on your self. You said: "My fond memories are all from pre adventist days." "Thanks Maryann for evoking some sweet memories from the heart. However, at this time in my life, I cannot relate to any fond memories from sda, I cannot claim sda as my heritage at this time in my life. No siree. Too painful! Any recollection real joyful moments of the past, I have to go back to PRE-sda, before 18, then I can enjoy JOY full moments." You really NEED to find at least ONE (1) wonderful memory from your SDA years and post it! There has to be something! I know there is! Jude or Richard......How about you guys lead Morgan in a wonderful memory. I know you guys have one two! (three, four, five....) ;-) Morgan....Take a look at my post: May 13, 2000, 8:38 am under "Keeping 'our friends the Adventist' honest" thread. The "back and forth" between Jude and I is the perfect example of how to lighten up, not be beating myself up and just plain laughing so hard my sides hurt! The readers digest had a "Laughter, the Best Medicine" (something like that) section. Those are the first places I go! If it ain't in written form, I'll make my own! Yeh, yeh, yeh, I know I'm weird, but I can laugh at just about anything. I will e-mail you a case and point that is not funny at all, but, I have really done a number on it even as I write, so as I'm laughing again! You are going to find things that you THOUGHT were right for years to come! 80 books are hard to "FLUSH" "cause little chunks keep falling into your view and your flushing arm IS REALLY getting tired! Take a break! Smell some of the memories that I know and you know you have. Then pick up and start flushing again! Only now, do it with a laugh and smile. I am truly "blessed" with the best sense of humor of anyone I know. I only wish I could give you some of mine because it's like a sour dough starter, it will go on growing for ever no matter how much I give away. Oops, I hope that came out okay? If not, it was ment okay! I'll go bring up "Memory Lane" for you. It will stare at you asking for "YOUR MEMORY". Soooo, "keep on trucking"........Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
Morgan, My answer: Get mad. Let it out. You have been duped (or brainwashed if you were raised SDA) by a charlatan system. There is no delicate way of putting it. You can try to be politically correct if you wish, but it never worked for me. And if people tell you that it is succombing to the weaknesses of the flesh to get angry, just remind them of how angry Jesus got at those who corrupted the Temple with their moneymaking schemes. I have been so accustomed to having a tidy neat package of truth ready to be handed out, so it disturbs me greatly for one by one every TRUTH I held so dearly is smashed before me. I understand. I know many SDAs, even those who have left the church because of the Gospel, who ventured even as far as agnosticism, because it is a very difficult thing to have your entire belief system smashed. One person I am close to compares it to finding your spouse in bed with someone else. It is a difficult thing to understand and to cope with. Again I am asking, for some comforting words that I will be made whole. When should I expect to be walking as firm, strong and healthy as you guys seem to be? Remember, Morgan, I am walking around "firm, strong, and healthy" after being out of the denomination for 20 years. It is telling that I would still seek out such sites after being out so long. Allow me to comfort you: 1. The Holy Spirit is leading you. You may not sense this, but that does not mean it is not true. You may not know where He is leading, but you will follow, and you will be glad you did. 2. You can have the assurance that you never had in the SDA church that Jesus Christ has chosen you, has died for you, has done everything necessary for your salvation. This is not a matter of "feelings." You may or may not "feel" saved; you may or may not "feel" deep emotions of peace or conviction; you may or may not "feel" happy that your life has been disrupted. It is a matter of Truth. Jesus Christ is your complete and full salvation. He can see you through your times of despair, frustration, and hopeless feelings. Just hang on to this single thought: Worthy is the Lamb. 3. You are not alone. There are many Christians who have been duped by their pastors, their parents or others touting their own special brand of theology. Some people are just as addicted to "being right" to "having the Truth" as they are to criticizing and sitting in judgment on others. You have (forcefully) been released from that addiction. You are bound to suffer withdrawal. Welcome to the real world, where there are few answers, where God expects us to use our brain to figure out what is best to do or not to do, where the most important issue is our relationship to our fellow man; now the really hard questions remain to be answered. But the good news is that they have nothing to do with your salvation. You are a child of God; you are a lamb of the Good Shepherd, and He will never let you go; He will save you to the uttermost. He has done everything that needs to be done for your salvation; now go out and live (and tell others). 5. Rejoice that your eyes have been opened. My mother did not come to the realization that you did until she was almost 50. She bitterly regrets the years, the time, the talents she freely donated to the Church of the False Profit. 6. Discover people! When I left the SDA church, it was quite amazing to me how many wonderful people there were, not only in Babylon, but in the world as a whole. I had always held myself back from them out of fear (after all they were going to try and kill me someday), suspicion, and just plain arrogance. I was quite happily astonished at the kindness of the people I met just in every day life, and the warmth of the other Christians with which I came to commune. Go out among the Babylonians and find a warm and loving group of Christians with which to worship and praise God for His great salvation. And then come back to us and toss off all of your frustrations. There is no one who will understand more than these fine people on this forum. 7. As bad as everything may appear to you now, as angry as you are, you truly wouldn't want to go back to being blind and led around by a White hook in your nose, would you? And it is probably not the fault of the people closest to you, who nurtured you and taught you. They are duped also. But it will take the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to show them. There is no good reason to leave SDAism except for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have two siblings who left out of rebellion, and they sort of wander in the no-man's land between half-belief, agnosticism, and guilt for not being religious anymore. Praise God that He gave you a real reason to leave! 8. Above all be patient with yourself and learn to forgive yourself. If God has forgiven you in Christ, then you must learn to forgive yourself. The times of our ignorance God winked at. Now is not time for feeling stupid or gullible; it is time to make some positive moves for yourself. I am not saying be arrogant. Recognize your great and constant need of a Savior, but at the same time realize that that need has been provided for you, whether you can sense it or not. We are not saved by our senses--they are easily fooled. We are saved by hanging on to the belief that Christ is all-sufficient for us even when we cannot sense it. So believe, believe, believe. And then go out and live your life with courage and confidence, knowing that Christ's grace for you is totally sufficient, and telling others of this great wonder. My prayers and empathy are with you! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Hi Morgan, I've only been SDA for 15 years, but something was said recently about Formers that really bothered me. A woman said that we FAFers need to forget our SDA past and move on, because by identifying with that past we are not allowing ourselves to be completely free. Although I did not respond (I know she meant it kindly) a thought ran through my head. Paul, throughout the New Testament, constantly reminded people of his past. He was a Pharisee of the Pharisees, studied under Gamaliel, born a Roman citizen, a persecuter of the Church, etc., etc. Perhaps God has great plans for you, Morgan. Was Paul walking in the flesh, as your friends seem so quick to condemn you? Of course he wasn't. Paul walked in the Spirit. And his past provided great incentive for his work for the Kingdom of God. If we look at the lives of each of the Great Persons of the Bible, we can see that their past, good or bad, was a great part of who they were. Your years of being SDA (including the mental aspects of trying to leave it behind) will provide you with a GREAT witness. Remember, Hebrews says we are surrounded with a "great cloud of witnesses". Reading Hebrews 11 shows that this great cloud were people just like you and I, with problematic, or even shady, pasts. Praise God that He may be leading you in ways that you would not have gone by yourself. Having things shaken and knocked over is not bad. Especially those things that can be shaken and knocked over (Remember Dagon?). Jesus Christ can never be shaken and knocked over. Once you have Him, you have everything, because salvation in Him is everything. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Steve |
Wow, Patti. Looks like we were posting at the same time (that's happened to me a lot lately) and I didn't read what you wrote while I was writing. AMEN. Your testimony is wonderful and gives me hope too. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hey, Steve! What can I say? Great minds :) (jk) Your posts are always uplifting for me also. | ||
| George |
Patti, What you said to BMorgan is so true, sometimes we forget that it is O.K. to be angry at times. I haven't forgotten to comment on Heb 10 juat haven't had the time ot look into it yet, will do it soon. Jude, That was a very clear answer to me---Thanks George | ||
| Ishmael |
Dear Jude, Read your question on FAF forum: "WHAT ARE THEY STILL LACKING?" I'm still waiting for my membership in FAF. Tinker is still tinkering, I guess. I like your comments. A bit militant but then that is understandable. Obviously 7th-Day Adventist evangelists are continuing with the deception of preaching a false gospel. Sad, isn't it? Nevertheless, there will be 7th-day Adventists in Heaven and they are saved even right now. It appears that the body politic of 7th-day Adventists are much less concerned about the doctrines per se than with simply wanting to wind up where we all want to...with our Lord and Saviour Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven with the benefit of eternal life. I left the 7th-day Adventist church as Cottrell put it many years ago, "because of convictions of conscience." Personally I don't really care that much about the doctrines of SDA's as much as I care about my own personal pain, having suffered a variety of of misfortunes, including divorce, associated with them. My mind set is unfortunately terribly subjective and therefore I find that I must be careful about how vigorously I respond (attack?) their doctrinal positions. My 80-year old mother is still an active SDA. She gets through painful day after painful day (she has severe arthritis) by listening to 3ABN and Amazing Facts' Doug Batchelor. I love her dearly and we know that we disagree. Every time I call her she is there for me. She prays for me. I love my mom and I don't want to try and "convert" her or "correct" her fractured theology. So Jude, I plan to see you in Heaven (if we never meet in this life) along with members of the over 457 other denominations in this country alone...including 7th-Day Adventists. I have learned that I will have to let God decide exactly how to interpret His Gospel. He's the One who originated it, put it into use, and will ultimately validate it. I do hear the pain in some of your didactic commentaries and I share it with you. Maybe we can get some relief in this life...but if not, for sure in the next. Your friend in Christ, Ishmael | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi BMorgan, Iíve never before answered this way on a message board, only in private correspondence. But I seem impressed to make an exception for you. You have to remember that Iím not a therapist. And Iím most assuredly not God. All I am is a fellow pilgrim walking the dusty rocky road with you a spell. But, BMorgan, the difference is that our road now runs through Godís kingdom of heaven. And even in ìthe now and future kingdom of heavenî there are sometimes rocks and dust on the road, weeds among the wheat fields, goats among the sheep flocks, and bad fish among the good in the lakes and streams, and ogres in some of the castles where our little pilgrim band might think to find refuge for the night. Can you see it? Sometimes the fields wind through green grassy hills where rosy-cheeked children run barefoot. Their hair streaming blond and brown and henna and black out behind them. Where exuberant border collies and excited Welsh corgis run circles around their flocks of sheep and goats, to keep them all together against the fiery pink and purple fire backdrop of Godís setting sun. Other times the road climbs narrow and steep, zigzagging higher and higher up grand canyon sides, spiraling round remote stone castles under Cassiopeiaís and Orionís moonlit gaze. Abodes whose inhabitants may be ogres. Or gentlefolk. Who can know? For God is our only fortress and strength and a very present help in time of trouble. Therefore, all you may expect from me is a listening ear, occasional outbursts of supportive affirmation, the kicking of a few stones out of your path, brief sharings from my own storyÖ. But all, hopefully, under the warming sun or cooling shade, as appropriate for Godís omnipresent grace and all-redeeming agape love. BMorgan: ìWhen should I expect to have my mind washed out of twenty-six years of deception and indoctrination from the SDA theology?î Jude: I wouldnít expect it at all. Remember Iíve endured at least as many years of this as you. But I donít worry about it any more. In fact, Iíve learned to enjoy watching the plaster pillars upholding the Temple of False Gods crumble and tumble down within my heart. For Christ is in there ñ like Samson of old ñ pushing them over one by one by one. But unlike Samson, Christ is not fazed. When false-god temples fall upon him, unlike us, they are smashed to bits! BMorgan: ìEvery thing that can be shaken (in my mind) is not only shaken, but knocked over. Some days I think ëGood, I am no longer a SDA, I will not fuss, I will just forget about it and begin learning anew.í ìHowever, it seems like every part of me was tainted with some false belief. I keep getting mad. Then I have a friend say, ëOh, you get mad because you are walking in the Flesh. All you have to do is forget it and move on.íî ìHow do I do that? Answer please, long-standing FAFers.î Jude: I wouldnít call myself a ìlong-standing FAFer,î since Iíve been one only since November í99, but I will attempt an answer: All right, so there is rubble in our minds. Maybe weíre even unaware of some pillars and lentils, cupolas and cornices, and niches holding un-recognized idols, which loom, still un-tumbled, in some pagan temple once hidden round the corner of some sheer quartz-granite wall. But then, by the grace of God, you meet people like Richard and Colleen Tinker. Canít you see them in their shining armor, swords and shields, fending off the swooping pteranodons aiming for the heads of all who dare to challenge the idolatrous niches and cupolas where they make their nests and raise their evil young? And, yes, there are those unenlightened souls who hector you with, ìOh, you get mad because you are walking in the flesh. All you have to do is forget it and move on.î No, itís not as simple as their dim eyesight would envision. But you need not give them the power to (1) read your mind and motives, (2) render well-intended but too-often definitely misguided judgments, and (3) tell you what to do. Only the Holy Spirit has the insight, the intellect and the power to (1) read your mind and motives, (2) render always-correct judgments and (3) tell you what to do. And he will do that if you ask, and sometimes even if you donít. But his ways are mysterious, deep and mystical ñ and as far above our poor through-a-mirror-darkly comprehension as the heavens are above the earth. Heís not like Jobís three so-called friends, if you catch the drift of my words. BMorgan: ìI am even afraid to share anything scripturally with anyone anymore, for I am afraid it may be wrong.î Jude: And so what if it is? Did your friends and acquaintances take the place of that seeress Ellen G. White as infallible interpreters of Scripture for you? Jesus told people like those who think to intrude upon your sanctuary, ìYou search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. But they are they that testify of me. Yet you refuse to come to me that you might have life.î Marvelous healing words. Christís words. Heed them. They will deny entrance beyond your BMorgan-set boundaries into the inner sanctum of your heart where the Christchild (Holy Spirit) lives dependent, to some small extent at least, upon your attention. Learn of him before you learn of them. Scripture involves more than just intellectual exercise ñ for it connects your mystically to the God of all the universes. More, it is the Holy Spirit who guides you into all truth, not people ñ such as Jude the Obscure ñ who post on Internet message boards. And so I would paraphrase that great pilgrim St. Paul and say, ìWhether you choose to post or not to post, to share or not to share, to discuss or not to discuss, do all to the glory of God.î BMorgan: ìI have been so accustomed to having a tidy neat package of truth ready to be handed out, so it disturbs me greatly for one by one every TRUTH I held so dearly is smashed before me. Again I am asking, for some comforting words that I will be made whole. When should I expect to be walking as firm, strong and healthy as you guys seem to be?î Jude: But the difference now, BMorgan, you are walking in the light as God gives you to see the light. You are incredibly blessed by the God who loved you before the foundations of the earth were laid, who created you in order to save you and instantly justify you, sanctify you, and make you perfectly sinless, so that you might walk the roads in the kingdom of heaven on earth, rather than the highways of hell! Sometimes now you feel tired and sore and winded and too-cold or too-hot. Well, donít we all? And remember this: Things are seldom what they seem. How do you know that those who post on FAF are any stronger or healthier than you? Even if that were so, take comfort from Christís words (John 21:22 NIV): When Jesus saw Peter growing jealous of John, ìJesus answered, ëIf I want him [John] to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.î For even if our pilgrim band does sometime walk together on the road that winds through the kingdom of heaven, we all still follow Jesus Christ. BMorgan: ìI thought I gave the Lord my spiritual pride, but it seems that the cloak is wrapped tighter than I thought.î Jude: The short answer is, if youíre wearing Christís seamless robe, white as snow upon a midnight clear in Bethlehem, you need not fear about your own cloak of spiritual pride. We all have that. It is covered. God is removing it thread by thread out of the sight of others ñ for, remember it is hidden under Christís righteous robe. And it is up to the Holy Spirit, when and where and how to remove threads. Remember when Peter denied his Lord three times? That incident revealed his hideous condition before God, right? What did God do? Read it in Mark 14:72 NIV: ìImmediately the rooster crowed the second time. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: ëBefore the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times.í And he broke down and wept.î BMorgan, that is how God deals with those who, by the Spiritís own appointed rooster crowing, realize that their ìcloak [of sin] is wrapped tighter than I thought.î Lucifer doesnít operate that way. Nor does God love Peter less than he loves you. For the fact that you realize your condition is evidence of his love, showing you that you are a sheep and not a goat, a wheat and not a weed ñ a pilgrim following Christ through the winding roads in the kingdom of heaven on the planet that no longer belongs to the evil one, but to God. BMorgan, Former Adventist, who left fellowship 18 months ago and mentally began leaving 6 months ago, you ask, ìNow what?î My answer: Vaya con Dios! Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Morgan, You just met Jude. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Greetings, Ishmael, Love that screen name (assuming that it is one), for it reminds me of the Ishmael in Herman Mellville's MOBY DICK. Semi-pariah Ishmael was the only one to have escaped the demise of the whaler Piquod, which was rammed-to-wreckage by the angry great white whale. And so it was he who was able to say, "I am Ishmael, and I have escaped alone to tell thee." Makes me shiver. And you have told me. You have shared with me your news and have cautioned me about my Internet expressions. And I thank you for that and will take your remarks under consideration as valid input. Now I have some news for you! You're already in the kingdom of heaven. It's here, Ishmael! Now! You don't have to wait for the trumpet to sound. That will come in God's good time, of which, of course, we know absolutely nothing. But the important -- the really important thing -- is to recognize that the kingdom of heaven has arrived -- despite what the Seventh-day Adventists say -- and it is here now. How dare I make so bold? I don't. For it is not I, but Jesus Christ, who so informed some SDA people living in Judea in the thirties of the first century AD (Luke 17:20,21 NIV): "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees [the SDAs] when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The kingdom of God [heaven] DOES NOT COME WITH YOUR CAREFUL OBSERVATION, NOR WILL PEOPLE SAY, 'HERE IT IS,' OR 'THERE IT IS,' because the kingdom of God [heaven] is within [and among] you." Enjoy it, Jude | ||
| Joni |
Morgan, I know what you are going through, I felt so lonley when I left Adventism. My new Christian friends did not know what I was going through and my Adventist friends did not know either. It was very hard to talk because of the two so different types of people. Those who knew Christ and those who knew the law. ( When I needed it, I found this site, and what a blessing it has been) But, being so alone forced me to talk to God. It helped me to go to my Bible. And read and read and read. I learned so much about who Jesus really is. I read the NT over and over. I began to see that in context a lot of the verses that Adventists used were way out of line. And I realized that even though I used them also I really did question in my heart. Now I read it for what it is and study it for what it is, in context. You see each verse has to line up with the paragraph and the paragraph with the book and the book with the Whole Word. I read a book called "THE SUBTLE POWER OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen. It was a blessing to me. I am sure others may have other ideas also. Cling to God. He has given you His Spirit and He will comfort, teach, and show you the way. There is no replacement for God, but God has His people here, so find those who know Christ, who truly desire God's will for you. They will be a comfort also. Jesus came to set the captives free. We were captives in a unhealthy world. He will free you. Another thing that I did was take one color marker and start from the NT and I marked every word and paragragh that had to do with healing. Than I went to the OT and did the same thing. When we saturate ourselves with God's Word, which is a living Word, it becomes a vital part of us, so deep that you will began to believe it. Yes it's so important to saturate yourself with God's word. Faith comes by hearing of the Word. Malachi 4:2 "BUT FOR YOU WHO FEAR MY NAME THE SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL RISE WITH HEALING IN ITS WINGS; AND YOU WILL GO FORTH AND SKIP ABOUT LIKE CALVES FROM THE STALL" What a picture. He went leaping and jumping and praising God. Do you remember the woman who touched Jesus's cloak? She was healed. The cloak edge is the same word as wings in Malachi.. Kawnaw = wings, an edge of a garment or bed clothing, a border, corner, end. Matt.14:36 Jesus does heal. My healing was day by day over a few years. But I am free. And so shall you be. God bless you, Joni | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanks, Joni, I know your message was addressed to BMorgan, but it helped me also. Loved Malachi's image of calves released from the stall leaping around in the sunshine of Christ's righteousness! Also appreciated the method of Bible study you mentioned -- going through the bible with a hiliter of one color and marking everything of your chosen subject. In the case you mentioned, it was healing. Great! Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
BMorganóYou are daily in my prayers, and I have not forgotten your project! God tailor-makes our healing. Once we are free in his grace, we have the strength to walk through the protracted rehab we all experience! Joy comes in the morning! Colleen | ||
| Joni |
Jude, Thank you. I have learned so much from you and all the others who post. I am getting bolder in my walk knowing that I am not alone. Paul usually ends his letters with grace and peace and prayers for all the saints. Help this one or pray for that one. I truly understand now that we need to continue to pray always for each other and all the saints. It amazes me that when we have freedom in Christ and His love captivates our hearts, we deeply care for the God's people. No matter what Church they belong to. Encourage each other always. I need to do more of this. Thank you again. You are always encouraging someone. Joni | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
You know, Joni, What you wrote reminded me of 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NIV (with slight annotation): ^^^^^^^^^^^ But their [the SDAs'] minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil [EGW] remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses [10 C's] is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." ^^^^^^^^^^^ Powerful, huh? My experience in Adventism, I realize only now, was one of always having to be ìon guard.î Against gossips, hypocrites, back-stabbers, self-righteous shunners, etc., etc., etc. In the gospel church I now attend there is FREEDOM! I really donít know how I can best explain this. It doesnít mean there arenít weeds growing in the wheat, goats milling about among the sheep, bad fish swimming around among the good, etc., etc., etc. It means that there is something different inside of me that connects with that same ìsomething differentî inside of other people. The miracle is that I can recognize it in other people. And so now I am freer to be myself, to let other people be themselves. There is less tension between the genders, different age groups, different races of people, people of different educational attainment, of different status and wealth or lack of sameÖ. The list seems to be endless, for differences are endless. For in Christ there is no east or west, no north or south, no Jew or gentile, no male or female, no educated or uneducated, etc., etc., etc. And that, my friend Joni, seems to be what the kingdom of heaven among us here and now is all about. In Christ, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Jude, What you've just written is so profound. I've been trying to explain my disconnectedness with other Adventists, but am often at a loss for the words to describe it. And you also say that you are freer to be yourself and let others be themselves. That is something that I've also struggled for words to describe. I found that in Adventism my own struggles have been something that I dare not share. No one seems to relate to them (except for ONE person in 15 years). We've all seemed to relate to one another based on our common church experiences, not the experiences of the Holy Spirit in our lives, working with us day to day. Nor have we related in the "common salvation" that we all share. The relatedness was always in the UNIQUE SDA salvation, rather than our commonality in Jesus Christ. Thank you for describing this in ways that I can understand, and make sense to me. You never fail to bless. In Him, Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Thank you, Jude, for so vividly describing what is also my experience. I'll repeat what I posted on another thread: I'm convinced that the connectedness you described which I feel with my new Christian friends is the Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit in us, we recognize him in another person. Likewise, (with thanks to Elizabeth Ingrig for this comment) the Holy Spirit in us recognizes the Holy Spirit inspiring the Bible. This experience of the Holy Spirit really makes Jesus' prayers in John 13-16 make sense. He prayed that His people would be one with each other as they are one with him and therefore also one with God. Thanking God for bringing true connectedness to my life, Colleen | ||
| Joni |
Jude, I think the Holy Spirit in us is a miracle!!!!! What we all experienced, as far as being on guard etc. I wonder... Is it because in Adventism there is no confidence in God, no confidence and teaching that we are in fact born again, and no confidence that we are saved from our sins??? I wonder is it because the hirearchy play this game that they are "without sin" to the lay people and this gives the illusion that we all must be perfect and pretend that, we too, are doing ok??????, when in fact we are not??? More lies!!!!!!! It is a breath of fresh air to be among Christians who know their true state and depend upon God, not works. You are very uplifting to others. Thank you. Colleen, the scripture you speak of is Romans 8:12-17. The whole chapter is wonderful. It is a awesome experience to bear witness with others becaues His Spirit is in us and bears witness to His Spirit in others. Praise God, He has not left us "in the dark" We got home last night from my husband's Father's funeral. I am amazed at all the reading there is to do on this site. Joni | ||
| BMorgan |
Hi Y'all, I can't thank the Lord enough for you people who are such a blessing to me. You ARE, my brothers and sisters in Christ. I am thankful for the way God used you to meet my need of acceptance, appreciation, and comfort. For the way you brighten my path, and even enrich my knowledge, and trust in God. When I came here "bawling" a week ago(last Tuesday), you counselled, corrected, and nourished me. You have helped lighten my load. How good and how pleasant it is to enjoy rich fellowship with fellow CHRISTIAN-christians. We share a common/special bond. Not only in Christ but we have been in the dark trenches of ..... "you know where" guys. George, Maryann (MARYANN:), Patti, Steve, Jude, Joni and Colleen. I printed out your comments and reread them frequently. Patti: Each one of your 7 statement of comfort is so powerful, viz.: The Holy Spirit is leading me. 2)I can and do have the assurance that Jesus Christ has chosen me, died for me and has done everything necessary for my salvation. 3) I am not alone (being duped). 4)I can rejoice that my eyes have been opened. 5) Discover People. 6) There is no good reason to leave SDAism except for the gospel of Jesus Christ. (I don't want to go back) 7) I should be patient with myself and learn to forgive myself. Steve, when I read your comments to me, posts and testimony, I say thank God for being Sovereign, and for each disturbing humbling situation he allows in our lives. What a wonderful insight to remind me of Dagon. You said, "Jesus Christ can never be shaken and knocked over." Is that why I can find joy/peace in the midst of the pain? Jude, I am particularly thankful for your "softy" side. I see the word militant going around your name, so I say, "go get 'em deceivers. Look, what "they" - -sda- have done to us." :) Don't come of sounding too humble, I won't feed you pie. You have been a good therapist to me. I appreciate you making an exception, leaving your secure position and coming back to meet and walk alongside me to help clear some dust from my eyes. Maryann said, "Hi Morgan, You just met Jude." I say, No, Jude came to meet me! Thanks. Joni, It is amazing to see the miracles of God before our very eyes in the small things. Last Wednesday, I received some tapes entitled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by VanVonderen. Jesus is healing me. Colleen, Thank you! God is showing me in small ways the pattern He is using to tailor-make my healing. It is unbelievable! It is like He has sent a flood of consolation from you dear ones to wash away the mound of grief and stench that was choking me. George, I will keep on truckin'. It seems like I can literally get up and walk again. I even have a "good" memory to post Maryann. May the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the love of God and the fellowship of His Holy Spirit, be with us all. BMorgan | ||
| Steve |
BMorgan, What you've just written about your journey this last week is amazing. It's EXACTLY how the Body of Christ is supposed to work. Not one part working independently of the other parts, but the Whole WORKING TOGETHER! Praise God. Sometimes we (I) may feel that we make such a small contribution, individually. But together, WOW! What an impact we can have for Christ. May we each continue to glory in the Body, not in the parts. God Bless, Steve | ||
| BMorgan |
Thanks Steve, It feels wonderful, but strange to have such fellowship within an SDA group. What's the matter with me? We are former "Adventist". It's the koinonia that Christ wants us to have because He is in the midst. Colleen's observation about the Spirit being alive in us when we are in Christ is reality. The (our) relationship cuts through the air and we can feel and relate and share in one another's experience in a much deeper way than when we sat in the pew and attended the "socials". I have noticed that even my close associates from the last church I attended have cut themselves off from us(my family). I guess they can't make converts out of us so, "away with the people (us) who have ONLY Jesus. ): After all, they have prophecy, Sabbath, and all the truth that is ever needed for the END TIME. Am I glad to be one of those who is being shaken out!!!! No, no, pulled out. Should I cry or shout HALLELUJAH? I'll sing some of the hymns and gospel music with you, Maryann, and I'll worship with a dance as we sing the Spiritual songs on Sunday, at my visible church fellowship. Steve, you are a blessing. I thank the Lord for the many of you who post here, even, yes, Ken You are in my prayers. BMorgan | ||
| Lydell |
BMorgan, I've been away for awhile and have just scanned through this thread. Wanted to offer my encouragment to you as well. It's a step at a time thing. Healing from soul hurts only rarely takes place suddenly. We have to work through the process. Looks like you've been given most excellent advice fromt he folks here already. The suggestion for Bible study is excellent. It's a new skill to learn to just let the scriptures say what they say without going back in your mind and thinking "yes but, the SDA's say that this verse over here says this against that." It takes time to look up all the verses on a particular topic, but it's the best way to let the Holy Spirit lay it all out for you. Of course, you end up having to follow some other threads of study tied to that one before you get it all unraveled and put back together. But it's an interesting journey along the way. We really have to stop arguing with what we see that the Word says and start adding up the evidence to see the truth. Like someone told you, be patient with yourself, God is! Another thing I think we have to all realize is that it is NOT, I repeat, NOT just former SDA's who deal with the garbage left in their head. There are many many folks coming out of remarkably similar legalistic backgrounds who have stuff to dump. We are amazed at the variety. Stop and think for just a moment of what it must be like for someone who was, for instance, raised Amish to leave that oppressive lifestyle and move into the freedom of Christ. You will have much to share with many people out there. People go through stuff and come out victorious. It is Christ who takes us through it to the other side. God reinterprets our lives as we surrender the pain and/or frustration and/or anger to Him and allow Him to lead. I think one of the first victorious steps is to ask Him to take all the negativity of my SDA experience into His hands and instead help me to turn my eyes from "the wasted years" toward the truth that "I have been set free from a legalistic prison!" It's the willingness to receive a change of attitude that opens me to see just what else He has to offer. The stuff that happened in the past is still there. It will always be there. It is the foundation for the future ministry He has for you. I'm not saying it's not going to keep hurting for awhile. But each time the painful memories come, you talk it over with the Lord. and then always always end with "Thank you Lord for my freedom from that garbage! Now open my eyes to the new blessing you have for me today!" Praying for you too! |
