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Kristine
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan - I just came here to read some posts, and am LIVID and can't stay quiet anymore (the reason I was gone for a while, is that my husband's dad died in march and my mom just died last Sunday, and it's been REALLY busy)...anyway, in relation to the last line of your post..."May all of us who've found our rest in Jesus Christ be a light to those who walk in darkness. Amen" If you are saying that Adventists don't have rest in Christ, I cannot believe how self-righteous that is...our pastor just did a sermon on Hebrews, and the rest that is in Jesus Christ, emphasizing through the whole sermon that there's NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation! I really think you have it all wrong about the Adventists...maybe the church you were in was legalistic, but none of the ones I've attended are.Also, Maryann...I will not be coming to this website anymore, because the church is so mis-represented here....
Also, no one EVER answered me about the quote someone here posted, that was taken completely out-of-context!! Praise God that Jesus covers my sins, I would never make it on my own.
Steve
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kristine,

Your experience in Adventism appears to be a good one for you. But please don't get "livid" with those of us who have had opposite experiences. Just because you haven't been in the legalistic SDA churches doesn't mean that they don't exist. And just because your own experience is not typical, we wouldn't discount your experience. But that hasn't been our experience.

If you're married, how would you like it if your spouse said he would leave you and take the children because you wanted to find a more grace-oriented church? That's my experience. Please don't discount that.

If someone didn't answer a post of yours, why don't you give us another try? We really would like to respond. Point out the quote again somewhere on the discussion and allow someone a chance. No one would ever make the claim that everything posted here is always, 100% right.

You have a right to be "livid." So do we.

In Him,

Steve
Bruce H
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristin
Our Prayers are with you. Sorry you feel this way
but as Long as Jesus Christ is your Lord and
savior then you know what your pastor said is TRUE
that there is Nothing you can do to earn
salvation.
Nobody can Know if the Spirit of God or the Holy
Spirit is indwelling somebody else only the person
who is born of the Spirit can know (Rom 8:9). If
you are born of the Spirit then you know and you
will know what to do, for you have not received
the spirit of Bondage again to fear but you have
recieved the Spirit of adoption whereby you will
cry ABBA FATHER (Rom 8:10-14).

Rest and Pease in our Lord and Savior.

Bruce Heinrich
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

Here's the EGW post that I'm pretty sure that Kristine is talking about. From Lynn under "Puzzled"

"Here's something from page 52 of Steps to Christ, where Ellen White criticizes people for holding an erroneous doctrine,
ìSome seem to feel that they must be on probation, and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But they may claim the blessing of God even now.î

Here's her answer:

"By Kristine on Monday, March 6, 2000 - 09:58 pm:

I did look up the one in Steps to Christ...we went out to dinner, and it's almost time for bed, so this will be quick--the quote in STC you quoted I think was taken out of context...the rest of the paragraph reads:.....perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of.....(further down)..we have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations......If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Savior, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."

Kristine does seem to have an understanding about salvation that most of us were not privilaged to be exposed to as SDAs. As I remember, she is a convert in the last 10 years. She is very honest and serious about her faith! She just doesn't have the fisrt hand experiences that we multi-generationer's have had.

I trust God in that he will take care of her and she will be just fine.

Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

I really should have put the above post back where it belonged under "Puzzled".
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Krisitine, I understand your anger. I also believe that you know you are saved (and safe) in Christ. I praise God for that!

I also want to challenge you to ask why your anger is so intense. My experience is that when I flare into defensiveness or anger, (and I do that when I wish I didn't!) I usually have something under the surface that I feel insecure about. I don't know what's fueling your anger. But I know that God will help you to identify the things he wants you to know. It's always hard for me to ask God to show me what His will really is and to help me to be willing to see reality His way when I feel protective or defensive about something.

I'm so sorry about the deaths of your father-in-law and mother. You're in intense pain. I'm sorry for the empty spaces in your life right now. I will pray for Jesus to comfort and fill you and to help you know what his will is for you right now. He will help you heal!

Love in Christ,
Colleen
Kristine
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 6:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm angry about this, in the same way I would be angry if I was unjustly accused of say, for instance, stealing something - when I know that I don't steal. Anger doesn't always have to be because someone is on the defensive. Christ was angry in the temple, and had good reason to be. Yes, there is a void because of these deaths, but only because I will miss them, but at the same time I know I will see them again. What a wonderfully happy day that will be! To see my mom and dad again is something I can look forward to!
Kristine
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve...I had bad experiences before in church's, but I didn't "throw out the baby with the bathwater". I didn't say that all Christian church's were bad, and then try to disuade other people from going to church! I understand that people have had bad experiences with the Adventist church from this forum, and do not minimize what you went through...(I thought I said I wasn't coming back here...LOL!)
Take care
George
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristine,

Glad to see you are still posting. This forum has a way of letting us sound off when we need to and welcoming us back when we are done-even before we are done. I count myself in good company.

My best to you and yours in the days ahead.

George
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kristine,

You posted, "If you are saying that Adventists don't have rest in Christ, I cannot believe how self-righteous that is...our pastor just did a sermon on Hebrews, and the rest that is in Jesus Christ, emphasizing through the whole sermon that there's NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation! I really think you have it all wrong about the Adventists...."

I haven't read all the postings after yours yet, but so far I would have this to say about your statement:

It's true, Adventists do believe "that there's NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation." But Adventists also believe "that there's SOMETHING we can do to earn our SANCTIFICATION and PERFECTION."

And THAT'S why they're legalists, not because they believe there's SOMETHING we can do to earn our salvation.

The gospel is a unit. There is NOTHING we can do to earn our:

1. Salvation (justification).
2. Sanctification.
3. Perfection.

All three are instantaneous, perpetual and everlasting.

Adventists take only the first. And THAT'S why they're legalistic. Here's an example:

Adventist tell Christians of all denominations all over the world, "Jesus is coming! Get ready!" Right?

Question: What does that message assume? What are Adventist evangelists presuming is the case with their audiences?

Answer: That Christians are NOT already ready for Jesus to come.

Wrong assumption!

Why so: Although Christians of other denominations may be justified by the blood of Christ, Seventh-day Adventists universally assume that they're STILL NOT READY for Jesus to come.

Why not: Because SDAs assume Christians are not yet (1) SANCTIFIED and not yet (2) PERFECT!

This is a provable fact that you really cannot successfully deny. There are too many EGW testimonies, too many decades of Sabbath School Quarterlies, too many Review and Signs articles, too many official GC pronouncements, too many "full message" books, to many ongoing evangelistic meetings and Revelation Seminars in support of it.

But it is nonetheless STILL a heresy and a denial of the full-and-unbroken gospel message, which includes all three:

1. Instantaneous JUSTIFICATION.

2. Instantaneous SANCTIFICATION.

3. Instantaneous PERFECTION.

Offering all three to you right now, Kristine,

Jude
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kristine,

You posted, "I had bad experiences before in churches, but I didn't 'throw out the baby with the bathwater'. I didn't say that all Christian churches were bad, and then try to disuade other people from going to church!"

I believe you, Kristine. And furthermore I believe you to be a sincere, honest, faithful and true believer in Christ. And that's why I have chosen to take such pains to answer you very frankly and forthrightly right here and right now.

I ask you, by this statement are you saying that the FAF people "throw out the baby with the bathwater"?

If we can agree that "the baby" is Jesus Christ, then how is it that the FAF people who post here have "thrown out" Jesus Christ from our lives? Or, if that's not what you meant, then what do you mean?

I'm making a point out of this because that saying, "You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater," is perhaps the most common saying said against people who are leaving the SDA church.

And that may be true with most who leave Adventism. You know, there's another saying: "An Adventist is the guy who's sitting in church wishing he was sitting in a bar. And an ex-Adventist is that same guy sitting in a bar feeling guilty because he's not sitting in church."

That may be the EX-Adventist. But the FORMER Adventist -- at least the way I mean the term -- is the person who has left the Adventist church precisely because he believes it has indeed "thrown out the baby with the bathwater."

And I firmly believe there are many SDA members "in good and regular standing" who have not "thrown out the baby with the bathwater."

But I also believe that these people are not fully aware of what their church really does teach, or they are blind to it, or are too new to have encountered it. This is especially true of people who are going to the gospel-oriented, congregational, and celebration type SDA churches.

These congregations are usually led by SDA pastors who do preach the gospel -- at least the aspect that you clearly do understand --instantaneous justification.

But they keep carefully mum about the rest -- instantaneous sanctification and instantaneous perfection -- because speaking out might jeopardize their ministry in some way.

I invite you, ask your pastor about instantaneous sanctification-and-perfection and see what he says. Then post his answer here.

In grace alone, Scripture alone and faith alone,

Jude
George
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude

I thought you said, if we claim to be without sin we are in trouble. Now you say we are perfect as soon as we are saved. Perfect and without sin sound like the same thing to me. You can't have it both ways.


George
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi George,

I couldn't agree with you more when you say, "Perfect and without sin sound like the same thing to me."

We are without sin as soon as we are saved -- absolutely!

But only in Christ. He is our only perfection. Period. When another human being looks at you he sees sin and imperfection.

That's because, "Human beings look upon the outward appearance."

"But," George, "God looks on the heart."

And if you have accepted ALL of God's grace, what does God see there?

You got it! He sees Jesus Christ the Righteous!

Why would God only see one aspect of Christ there? Why only the justified part?

No, he sees all aspects of Christ there -- the justified aspect, the sanctified aspect, the perfect aspect, and the sinless aspect.

That's why you can leap for joy, George!

Because you're justified now! You're sanctified now! You're perfect now! And you're sinless now!

But never without a mediator, who is Jesus Christ in you -- the hope of ALL your glory to come, lest anyone should boast.

Blessings and never cursings,

Jude
Kristine
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is it...I've tried to explain...if I asked my pastor, he would say the same thing I already said that he did in his sermon! That you are already justified AND sanctified in Christ! He said as much during the sermon last Sabbath. We can keep going around and around on this one... By throwing the baby out with the bathwater I was referring to getting "burned" by the Adventist church, and so, instead of just finding an Adventist church that wasn't legalistic (there are LOTS of them) leaving the Adventist church. I realize that there's nothing I can say to change anyone's mind here, so I am thinking I was really kind of stupidLOL to come here, what the heck did I expect? When someone has an experience, and is so thoroughly convinced of their position, nothing will change their mind. Nothing I can say will "get through", although, I wasn't trying to, just relating that I didn't think that your experience in the Adventist church was typical.
Kristine
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last post...according to Ellen White (re:the prior Steps to Christ quote, my pastor, and what has happened to me, I already HAVE all three!


You said: "1. Instantaneous JUSTIFICATION.

2. Instantaneous SANCTIFICATION.

3. Instantaneous PERFECTION.

Offering all three to you right now, Kristine,

Jude"
Bruce H
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George
It is me the Bible guy.
Here is the text that Jude was refering to.
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever
those who are being sanctified.

So when Jesus said be ye therfore perfect he was
not kidding.

Bruce Heinrich
Bruce H
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Krisitn
If you are truthful in what you say then we are of
the same body. We must all remember this for it
is the same Spirit in all.

Grace to you Kristin, do your study it say in 1
John that the HOLY SPIRIT will guide you into ALL
truth.


Bruce
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KristineóPraise God we have Jesus! And praise Jesus that he leads us inexorably into truth when we want to learn!

As Jude said, the "baby" is Jesus, and we celebrate with you the fullness of salvation, justification, sanctification, and perfection now!

The "bathwater", as we see it, is the denomination. The fact that it was founded on half-truths and doubtful revelations makes all of it suspect. Heresy, after all, is not blatant untruth. It's teaching partial truth as if it were the whole truth. Jesus transcends all denominations. He even transcends theology and doctrine. He is the One with whom we must identify. We have to be willing to give up every self-identity we haveócareer, denomination, family, skills and hobbiesóin order to identify with Christ. He then will define our identity in him.

Keep studying the Bible (as it appears you are), praying that the Holy Spirit will help you to know what it really says with no presets. God will show you what he wants you to know. It's a really hard thing to examine one's beliefs with a willingness to know the truth. We can't assume we have truth.

But God is faithful. He will guide you where he wants you, and he will never let you go!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear precious believer Kristine,

With Colleen and others here, I praise God for you. If you have confessed that you have all three aspects of grace -- justification, sanctification, and perfect sinlessness -- NOW AND FOREVER, then of course you "have it all," for "it all" is nothing more nor less than that little black-haired, brown-eyed, squirming, startling at loud "mooos" and "baaas", crying, laughing, breast-feeding, peeing, Jewish baby-boy Christmas present in a plain coarse-cloth wrapping!

He is the "it all," than which there is no more! Nor less! For long before he was born Isaiah called his name "Wonderful Counselor [that's God the Holy Spirit], the Mighty God [that's the wholeness of the Godhead, three in one], the Everlasting Father [that's God the Father], the Prince of Peace [that's God the Son]."

Wow! I just can never get over that! All three in one little human neonate!

Incidentally, I still have my membership in the SDA church, though I'm not telling where..... Doesn't matter, though, does it?

Blessing you,

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jude,

Just try to imagine what is going through my mind after reading the last few post's?

I've never heard you state something that clear and that simple. I have read your post 3 times and will probably read it again tomorrow.

Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kristine,

I just can't imagine how much pain you are in. Mom's just have to the hardest thing in the world to lose. I'm so thankful that you have the security and assurance that you will meet with all your loved one's someday.

Please understand something. You seem to have a wonderful church and I praise God for that. Your Church is not the kind of Church we FAFers came from. It is not the kind that is the "regular SDA Church". There is a lot of pain in a lot of us. Sometimes, the more pain involved, the more forceful we post on certain issues.

I really don't think that Susan was pointing at you and your experience, but, from her own experience. She and the rest of us have REALLY had some experiences. They can't be discounted or shoved under a rug. For every post someone makes here, there are probably 100s of readers that relate to them. Some will relate to you and some will relate the FAFers. This is what it is all about. Relating.

Nuff said. I really have enjoyed your friendship and hope to continue it should you really decide not to post anymore.

Your Sister in "our" Jesus.......Maryann

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