| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
NEWS AND REVIEWS IN SDA PUBLICATIONS This new Discussion is intended to be a repository for news and reviews affecting the changing relationship between Adventists and former Adventists. Hereís the story of a former who returned to Adventism. RETURNING FORMER: ìCHURCHî = ìSDA CHURCHî? Long-time SDA church professional Mike Jones is back. After leaving the church in the wake of his divorce and ìbeing away for 16 years,î heís back in ìthe church.î Thatís according to his autobiographical article, ìWhy I Came Back,î in the April 2000 issue of official church organ ìAdventist Review.î But what is ìthe churchî? In Ephesians 4:4-6 NIV, Paul defines the term: ìThere is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.î Is this what he means? Apparently not, for Jones doesnít follow Paulís definition. Instead, he supplies other, unscriptural, criteria. For Jones ìthe churchî equals ìthe SDA church.î Hereís why: Page 18: He unscripturally equates the SDA church, a physical reality, with the spiritual reality of the "remnant chosen by graceî of Romans 11:5. Writes Jones, ìMy return to the Seventh-day Adventist Church was ... influenced by Clifford Goldsteinís ìThe Remnant....î Page 17: He unscripturally distinguishes the SDA church from the ìlively Four Square Church in Portlandî where his bride, Diane, was a member. And he brought her out of that non-remnant entity and into his remnant one. Page 17: He unscripturally determined this change, making ìthis Sabbath businessî a test of fellowship (marriage), with this tactic: In responce to her observation, ìI donít think God cares which day I go to church,î he responded with, ìIíve had 23 years to remember my ex-wifeís birthday. Would it be OK if we celebrated your birthday on her birthday? Itís a different day, but youíre the one I love.î Pages 14, 17: He unscripturally equates ìsoul-winningî with turning turning Methodists into Adventists. Or, in the most significant instance, turn a Four Square Church member into a Seventh-day Adventist Church member. But even more telling are the fruits of his return. These include the following positive self-presentations: Page 18: ìI rarely listen to the radio anymore in the car.î Because heís too busy praying. ìI pray relentlessly.î Page 18: ìI watch almost no television.î Because heís too busy preparing for his witnessing and prayer groups. Page 18: But the most ìwonderfulî result of his return is the fact that he's gained the "victory" over and hasnít indulged in ìimpure thinkingî since August of 1998. Contrast this with Jesus description of the fruits of true repentance in Luke 18:9-14 NIV: To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: ìTwo men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ëGod, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.í But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ëGod, have mercy on me, a sinner.í ìI tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." In his grace and his grace, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Hi Jude, That's disturbing. I still subscribe to the Review and many of the articles lately have been very disturbing to me. I didn't read the one you refer to, but a number of what I've read have the same message. Recently Richard Fredericks church came under attack directly by William Johnsson. It made me sick. If Fredericks is bringing people to Christ, what's the big deal about the day? Especially if the SDA church is a continuation of the Reformation. The Reformation churches don't attack one another. It's the cults that attack one another and other good, Bible-believing Christian churches. Since my "eyes have been opened" (I was blind before) the Review just oozes with self-righteousness, such as you've shown in Jones, above. The occasional article where an individual admits to sin in his/her life is usually fairly petty. I'd rather hang out with the murderers, liars, prostitutes, and tax collectors. At least that's the crowd Jesus seemed to identify with. Having come from a family where my step-dad spent many years in San Quentin, I realize that he's the type that Christ died for, not the SDAs that I've been hanging around for the last 15 years. Roman Catholics have a practice called confession. Before becoming a SDA, it was common amongst my Christian friends and I to share our struggles, sins of thought and deed, etc. Not to brag, but to find needed support. AND THE SUPPORT WAS THERE! In SDAism, not only am I afraid of sharing my real sins, when I have, people have really wondered about me (they've even said so). I think I'd be the kind of person Jesus would have hung out with. And just thinking about that, makes my eyes swell up with tears. You titled this discussion "Keeping our friends the Adventists honest." There's only one person aside from myself in SDAism that I've ever know who has been honest and open about his personal struggle with sin. He's a wonderful person. Oozes with Christ's love. But I feel his lessons in Sabbath school don't have the effect they could if we all would realize that we're the same. Do we keep SDAs honest by being honest ourselves in their presence? What should we be honest about? Our sins? Jesus' righteousness? ??? I think those Christians that are in SDAism want desperately to be honest, but they're trapped. They admit to what's really going on in their lives and thier deemed less than worthy. They don't admit to what's really going on, and like me, they feel like their hiding things just to be part of the group. After all, C. S. Lewis wrote about being a part of the "Inner Circle" as something that all humans desperately want to experience. Perhaps it's bringing them into the True Inner Circle, in the Body of Christ, that's our real challenge. But how to do this, I'm just at a loss. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Steve |
OOPS! Just realized that this discussion was to be a repository of news and views of relationships between SDAs and Formers. Hope the above doesn't distract from the purpose of this discussion. (I admit I got carried away by the title.) | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi, Steve, Thank you for your posts. I hope you keep on, since your witness and testimony are so excellent and needed. You are able to see through the SDA "veil" that hangs in front of their eyes and blinds them. Are you gifted with this special ability because of your past? No oopses allowed. You had it right the first time. Think of this Discussion as the Op-Ed page in the newspaper. It has both reports and letters-to-the-editor. It has reviews and commentary on the news, but it also has reader responses. Everybody is encouraged to do both. If you find something, share it here. And comment, comment, comment -- the more the better. Keeping in Christ, Jude | ||
| BMorgan |
Jude, Did you read an article in the REVIEW sometime last year, "10 Reason why I would not leave" (not too sure about the title.) The writer was some conference worker/pastor, glorifying HIS church and the perks he receives, which is why loves Sda. Did you read it? The article you mentioned reminded me about it. Any comments? B | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Morgan, I think I skimmed through it without reading it all. I remember thinking, How typical! There is also a book out, I haven't read it, titled something like, "Ten Who Left," a series of interviews of ten SDAs who left: their reasons why, etc. From talking with people who had read it, I understand that the point of the book was to REFORM the church in areas of severe complaint: reasons why people are leaving. If anybody out there has read it, please tell us your thoughts about it. Jude | ||
| Steve |
Now that my eyes are opened (opening), I can see. News & Reviews from: Pacific Union Recorder, May 2000. In the first column in the 48 page mag, the PRESIDENT'S PERSPECTIVE (p. 3), there is an article about Getting Closer to the end-time. Two EGW prophecies are mentioned; First, "When Protestant churches shall seek the support of the secular power, thusfollowingthe example of the apostate church, . . . then will there be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin." The Spirit of Prophecy, V. 4, p. 410. The article then goes on with the recent example of how Bob Jones University gave in to political pressure by letting go of some of it's apparent "bigotry, discrimination, and intolerance". It does mention that Bob Jones U. holds in common with SDAs that "Catholocism is a 'satanic system and religion of the anti-Christ.' " The second prophecy mentioned is also from EGW, 1887, "The Romish Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged" Bible Echo and Signs of the Times, Feb. 1, 1887. This article denounces the joining of the forces of government and religion. Typical. The very magazine that denounces ONE group for being influenced by government pressure, has an article later in the magazine called, New York win for Sabbath observers. This article goes on to tell of an agreement reached between Sears, Roebuck and Co. and the New York State Attorney General's office. Mitchell Tyner, an SDA lawyer and associate in the world Church's Office of General Counsel, said, "It's especially encouraging to see a state attorney general get serious about religious discrimination in the workplace and to achieve something substantial." Our Friends, the Adventists want it both ways. They want those who are influenced by government to STOP BOWING TO GOVERNMENT. Yet, in the same breath (magazine) they want GOVERNMENT TO BOW TO THE SDA understanding of what is correct religious practice. It seems that the SDA church is fulfilling its own prophecies. It is, in the words of EGW, "seek[ing] the support of the secular power, thus following the example of the apostate church," (reference given above). What better way to bring about the end-time scenario than for the SDA church to join in with the government and bring about Saturday legislation as an enforceable government policy in the personal lives and businesses of otherwise good Americans. Keeping my eyes open, Steve PS - In those 48 pages, I saw 3 scripture references, and NUMEROUS references to financial situations with various efforts in different churches in the Pacific Union. ALMOST NOTHING about Jesus, His Sacrifice, His Love, our Salvation, the Bible, the work of the Holy Spirit, TRUE PROTESTANTISM. (I saw on numerous pages financial information. I didn't have to search for that. I had to SEARCH the mag for 3 references to scripture.) In this particular mag, I see a financial institution showing how wonderful IT is, not how wonderful He is. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanks, Steve, for the review of the May 2000 pacific Union Recorder. Your comments remind me of a skirmish at small town where an SDA college is located. This happened in the mid-70s. There was a public school there, a middle school, I think. There was also an SDA "church school," but many SDA parents were sending their kids to the St. Helena public middle school, presumably because the tuition was too high at their own school -- or perhaps they just didn't want to pay it. SDA parents, it seems, were dead set on sending their kids to the public school. So many, in fact, that the SDA kids overwhelmed the public school and the SDA public school parents overwhelmed the public school board. Iím not sure if there was so much as a single Philistine parent on the public school board. And so it wasnít long before the SDA-run public school board started passing religious laws, such as ìno meatî served at lunch in the public school. Their reasoning, perhaps, was that there were so few Philistine kids in the SDA run public school ñ run, donít forget, on tax dollars, most of which came from SDA pockets in and around the little berg ñ that they didnít matter. Oops! They got that one really really wrong! What few Philistine parents that still existed were incensed! They demanded the ages-old tradition of ìmeat for lunchî in public schools be restored. No dice. They complained bitterly. No use. They wrote letters to ìhigher ups,î such as the district superintendent, who, being SDA also, hee-hee-heed and haw-haw-hawed and ho-ho-hoed. Furious, the Philistine parents ñ all eight or nine of them ñ wrote letters-to-the-editor. But to no avail. Finally they went to court. And THAT finally got the SDA muleís attention. After all, doesnít Paul say in 1 Corinthians 6 that Christians should not take Christians to court? The Philistines shouldnít have taken the Adventists to court! This was a great evil and wrongful wounding of the ever-gracious, ever-generous, ever-openhearted SDA spirit! Well, I donít know how the case came out. I lost track. But what if they had passed a SATURDAY LAW there? Or at College Place, Washington? Or at Collegedale, Tennessee? Or at Loma Linda, California? Or at La Sierra, California? Or at Silver Spring, Maryland? Or at Berrien Springs, Michigan? Or at St. Helena, California? OrÖ.? What do YOU think is the greater threat? SUNDAY LAWS? Or SATURDAY LAWS? Just checking, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Wow! That's incredible. The more I see of what's happened in Adventism, the more I see the beast (hmmmm, choice of words) for what it is. Saturday or Sunday? The Moody Blues, an old favorite Rock & Roll band I liked, had a song titled Tuesday Afternoon. It think I'll push for Tuesday Afternoon legislation. Soon I'll put on this site the Sabbath School quarterly lesson my kids just went through this evening. It actually misquoted Jesus' words. I brought this up to a pastor tonight. He said they've written apologies in the past for mistakes. However, one of the individuals present said that maybe they were just INTERPRETING what Jesus meant. THAT'S MY PROBLEM! Too much interpretation. I enjoy good interpretation. But when something is twisted to mean something it doesn't, and to say that Jesus said it, well, that's atrocious. When we first moved here to Riverside, CA, I really wondered why there weren't more SDAs. Now I know why. Saturday legislation. Without making it a law, they virtually act as though there's such a law. Sunday legislation could be a problem. But the Sabbath keepers of the world are pretty legalistic. Death for breaking the 7th day sabbath would be quick on the heels of such legislation. After all, we must keep the "Whole Law", mustn't we? | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
EGW PLAGIARISM ISSUE AGAIN REARS UGLY HEAD This item from Pastor Jan Marcussen's newsletter of May 2000. THE FOREGROUND: You may remember Pastor Jan as the super-hysterical (oops, I mean -historical) SAD (oops, I mean SDA) author of "National Sunday Law" -- over 14 million copies in print! -- in which he slaveringly dumps the Seven Last Plagues in all their goriest (oops, I mean glorious) details out over the face of all the earth. Ah, yes, THAT Pastor Jan! As you may remember from my last post about him, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists (GCSDA) recently sued and won a lawsuit against the Eternal Gospel Church (EGCSDA) of Seventh-day Adventists in Florida. THE BACKGROUND: The GCSDA had secretly TRADEMARKED the name "Seventh-day Adventist." I guess this is their admission, at long last, that their religion isn't a "faith" after all, but a "trade"! The EGCSDA was once a full-fledged, sister conference church in Florida. But it was "de-sistered," if that's a word. This process is similar to "disfellowshipping," but instead of doing it one person at a time, they do it a whole church at a time. Whoosh! Dig that dizzy-giddy feeling? It reminds of Sister White's prophecy that "whole churches will go out." Only you didn't realize she meant "by getting kicked out," did you? She must have left that part out. When the SDAGC sued the EGCSDA on the basis of "trademark infringement" -- as opposed "faithmark infringement" -- they hired as head attorney for the case one Vincent L. Ramik. THE NEWS: The SDAGC claimed that Mr. Ramik was a PRESBYTERIAN. Whereupon our inveterate Pastor Jan -- trust me, a venomous anti-Catholic propagandist if ever a one there was -- dug up documents proving instead that he was a -- gasp! -- Roman Catholic! Mass-going, genuflecting, chest-crossing 'n' everything! But, you humbly ask, and righteously so, What does that itchy-scratchy little factoid have to do with EGW's plagiarism? Just this: The documents proving Ramik's Roman Catholicism-hood, also proved -- get this -- that HE WAS THE INFAMOUS "OUTSIDE ATTORNEY" WHO "CLEARED" EGW'S NAME OF PLAGIARISM way back in 1981. So what? If you will read the following documents, so courteously supplied by none other than Pastor Jan himself, you will soon divine the reason why Attorney Ramik "cleared" her name of all charges. The reason NOT a legal one. It was because, and I quote, "She moved me." Just remember, you read it here, folks, right on FAF! And here are the relevant excerpts from the relevant documents unearthed by Pastor Jan: ################ # BEGIN DOCUMENTS # ################ Adventist Review, September 17, 1981 WAS ELLEN G. WHITE A PLAGIARIST? Interview about Ellen White and her writings with Attorney Vincent L. Ramik, senior partner of Diller, Ramik & Wight [not White, you guys!], Ltd., specialists in patent, TRADEmark, and copyright. Washington copyright lawyer concludes that Ellen White was not a plagiarist and her works did not constitute copyright infringement.... "THERE SIMPLY IS NO CASE" Review: What did you find in her messages, Mr. Ramik? How did they affect you? Ramik: Mrs. White moved me! In all candor, she moved me. I am a Roman Catholic: but, Catholic, Protestant, whatevere -- whe moved me. And I think.... ############## # END DOCUMENTS # ############## And what does our Pastor Jan say now that he has caught his own SDAGC leadership in a little White lie? Catholic Atty. Ramik, not Presbyterian Atty. Ramik? This: "Praise God! Our kind Father is so good to help us all know these things so that we can keep our [shut?] eyes on our Lord Jesus in these last days. He is the head of His 6000 year old SDA church, which I'm so glad to stand in loyal defense of -- against the Roman Catholic attack going on against it." (Y3K PJM Newsletter, p.4.) Weeeeeeell, like I said, friends, you read it here first! Just remember, it isn't "the church," any church, that is "the truth." It is our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, I've often wondered if there was any scientific fact to the EGW "doctrine" of not drinking water/liquid with the meal? Was I and my offshoot comrades the only ones raised to believe that water/liquid was NOT to pass through he lips 1/2 before a meal till 2 hours after the meal? To this day, I never put water on my table unless asked. In a restaurant, even though I drink water there, I really consciously and un-consciously feel funny about it. Soooo? Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
Maryann, There may be some basis in fact for this. The theory is that water and other fluids dilute saliva and other digestive juices making digestion not quite as complete. (Although, I drink like crazy with my meals!) My mother-in-law was fastidious about never serving anything to drink with meals. But I do not see that any harm has come of my habit of always having a drink of something in hand, before, during, and after meals. In fact, I have never heard this theory against drinking while eating anywhere but in SDAism, which makes it quite suspect as far as I am concerned. At any rate, Maryann, the kingdom of heaven is not a matter of eating and drinking (OR drinking WHILE eating!) but of peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. So drink up! And let those old SDA demons fly out the window. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Ha! I'm having a good laugh. I also read Marcussen's newsletter. It amazed me about that statement about the 6000 year old SDA church. Hmmmmm. Maybe they're right. After all, it says in Gen. 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made." Maybe in his craftiness he started the SDA church. Well, maybe. Maryann and Patti, good stuff. A Sabbath school teacher a couple of weeks ago admitted that he tried that bit about giving up drinking while eating. He said he was miserable. Yes, there is the issue of diluting the saliva and digestive juices. But if we can't enjoy a meal without a drink, then maybe we should stop eating altogether. Perhaps the food would dilute the digestive juices! God Bless, Steve | ||
| Plain Patti |
Maryann and Steve, This line of conversation (drinking and eating) reminds me of conversations we used to have in Sabbath School class. I have heard it said that the issue of unclean meat and vegetarianism was not a moral matter but a health issue. Then the same people would say that they would die before they would take a bite of meat or pork, etc. Now that is really a way to protect one's health, isn't it? To starve to death before taking a bite of a forbidden food! :) | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
My fellow health deformers and fanatics, From my 20+ years experience in science, health, and medical journalism I can tell you that there is not a shred of SCIENTIFIC evidence to disfavor drinking water with meals. There is a natural variability in water content of the foods we eat. Consider the water content in a fruit salad consisting of watermelon, cantelope, honeydew, orange wedges, grapefruit wedges, etc., etc., etc. Now compare that with the water content in zwieback toast, dry cereals, nuts, crackers, etc. The difference is far greater than a few sips of water would make up for at a meal! Get real! If we follow EGW, we'd better stop putting milk -- soya milk or rice milk, of course, I hasten to modify -- on our Kellogg's Corn Flakes. For isn't milk 99.99% water (vs. the "milk solids" = "powder milk")? And in terms of water content, isn't it scarcely distinguishable from water? Where did EGW warn against putting soya milk on your corn flakes because it might "dilute your saliva and stomach acid? If you don't eat it dry, you'll start rejecting other Testimonies as well!" (Counsels on Eating Dry Foods at Breakfast, page 471.) So there! And what about fruit juices? If I remember correctly EGW said in Counsels Against Eating Fruit Salads at Church Potlucks, pg. 666, "Fruit juices dilute our saliva and stomach acids as much as pure water. From the light that my angel has given me, eat only dried fruit. All who do otherwise will go from God's people to labor over "food and drink" with them no more. For the kingdom of heaven is "food and drink" in verity." My friends, trust your body. Thirst is a God-given regulator of the body's water needs. Just as much as hunger is a God-given regulator of our need for sustenance. Just as the "too hot" feeling -- wanting to get out of the hot sun and into the cool shade with a tall glass of lemonaid -- is a God-given regulator of body temperature. Just as shivering is a God-given regulator to get you to put on that inch-thick wool sweater from New Zealand while searching for Christmas trees in the mountains of Alberta, Canada in the middle of December. And what about the feeling of tiredness after a day-long hike in Yosemite? Or of fever telling you you're sick? Or headache telling you you went through that icy strawberry slurpy too fast? I mean, when your body's trying to TELL you something, LISTEN! Don't go running to the library to see what the Red Books have to say on the subject! It's trying to say something like: If you don't get out of the hot sun you're going to get a heat stroke! Or if you don't get some rest you're going to collapse and have to be carried out by your also-tired friends, thus stressing your social life! Now excuse me while I have some icy lemonade with my Mother's Day dindin! Slurp, slurp, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, You said: "My fellow health deformers (funny) and fanatics, From my 20+ years experience in science, health, and medical journalism I can tell you that there is not a shred (good word) of SCIENTIFIC evidence to disfavor drinking water with meals." I addressed this to you because I knew your background was of such to answer the question. ONLY, I didn't think it would wind you up that tight! ;-) Actually, it slammed me to the back of my chair and still has me pinned there! I'm still laughing. Anyway, thanks for the definitive answer. "Counsels Against Eating Fruit Salads at Church Potlucks, pg. 666" That is really funny! Seriously now, I have really wondered about this and you are the first person I've asked about it (ouch, I'm still stinging, slap my ignorance:-). I did notice others were under the same bondage! I used to ask why milk was okay but not water and juice. I was told that milk was a solid. I find that at a normal meal I don't feel the need to drink very much. There is plenty of juice in the fruits and veggies. If a meal is over seasoned (usually salt), one tends to want to drink a gallon and that gives you the sloshy tummy. (maybe EGW did that, hence the need of a vision?) On the "brain freeze". Mom never experienced that (be nice!) and I was forbidden NEVER to tell anyone that I experienced it! I need to conduct a study on that and see if the reason for no "brain freeze" has any correlation to false teeth! (you know, covering the roof of the mouth) In recent years, with 7-eleven talking about brain freeze in regards to their slurpies, Mom has finally accepted the fact of them. Thank goodness I have been able to come out of the "brain freeze closet" :) :) :) Well FAF is all about growing, isn't it? Well, I just grew, if I can just extract myself from my chair, I'll be 6 feet tall! Ouchy ouch.....Maryann | ||
| Steve |
Who knows, Jude. Maybe someday I'll have a little wine for my stomach's sake. Oops, I just checked -- Counsels on Wine, Beer, and Hard Liquor states that ". . . wine is only OK if prescribed by a Seventh-day Adventist doctor, and administered via IV directly into an artery." Oh, well. I guess that'll keep the "right arm of the ministry" in business for years to come. After all, didn't Sister Obscure (any relation to you Jude?) say that we must keep the Health Reform message in front (of the message of Christ), at all costs? : ) Steve | ||
| Steve |
That last line was supposed to show a smiley face. Wast one out, turn off the White. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Steve and Jude, Great minds think alike. You guys are to much! Really now Steve!, I just choked on my food and had to get a drink of water when I read this: "Sister Obscure (any relation to you Jude?" Jude, if you want me to, I will be glad to slap Steve for that one (if I can stop laughing)! Steve, congratulations on your "smiley face"! Jude, I had some other health questions for you, but you slammed them out of my mind. As soon as I remember them, I will ask you ;-( The real answer to so many of the questions that released SDAs and for that matter, anyone else, (in diet dept) is moderation and temperance. Remember back a few years ago when the extreme idea of NO fats or oils were in force with some SDAs? This applied to the babies and small children too! The were restricted from natural cold pressed oils! Peanut butter too, because it separated and had oil on the top!! Just think of the untold damage these kids will suffer from in later life because they didn't have enough oil (fat) in their diets to properly develop the nerve covering!? (Or at least that is my understanding). I better leave this alone before I wind up like Jude did ;-) Really, it amazes me how many things from our past indoctrination of so many "different gosples" keeps showing up. I WILL keep asking the "stupid" questions, though!! Thanks for making my day.......Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
I can not figure out where you guys get all this it is incredible. |
