| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
George, consider that the 10C were given to spiritual children because they needed specific laws to keep them in line. They came from a barbaric nation and were surrounded by heathens. They couldn't understand "love your neighbor." They needed it spelled out for them. The spiritally mature can rely on the commands of Christ, "love one another as I have loved you," etc. Children are not mature, spiritally, emotionally, or socially. Just like the "children of Israel," they need specific rules laid out for them. They don't understand "just be nice" or "have some respect." I think it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to give the kid specific rules and expect him to obey them until he reaches maturity and is cabable of understanding respect. Hope that helps some. | ||
| George |
Lynn and BMorgan, I just knew if I asked for some help with this one someone would come up with what I needed. I am happy to say that my youngest is well past the age any of this would apply, and I never had these kind of problems with them. Nor did I have any boys, they can be so much more willful, I am sure ALL my hair would be pure white now. This question was for another family member, and you both came up with so many good ideas, much of it counsel for the parents. The kind of verse I was looking for is the one in Col. 3:20, "Children obey your parents in all things, this pleases God". This is about the only thing I think he will listen to and think about. Now I have to think of the right way to present it. Thanks for the wonderfull help----George | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Y'all, Somehow this thread got child rearing included in it. That's great. Richard Jr. made such a great statement when he said he prefered to say, "Once Saved, Always Certain." That packs a padded punch for those that have soft bones and easily bruised hide. My son has been fed the "Once saved, Always Saved" message in a way that gave him the idea that he could do what he wanted and still go to heaven. We need to be so careful about how that is presented. It will take an act of God to rid my boy of the "license" attitude. It was drilled into him when he was 6 years old and I didn't understand what was happening at that time. Lori, I quite sure it was you that made a statement, (maybe Joni), about when a preacher asked you when you were saved. You said something like 2000 years ago on the cross. I need that clarified. I'm thinking that it was "all sin" that was "paid" for 2000 years ago on the cross, not us "saved" 2000 years ago? You're not saved till you accept the free gift? I couldn't find the post, but am I remembering it correctly. Did I miss something in this whole thread? Anyway, Lori, this was just simply a wonderful thread that you started. Thank you again :-) Maryann | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, I think Patti was the one that made the statement about her salvation being made at the cross 2000 years ago. And place all you thanks unto the Giver (God), I simply can not take the credit for the thread, that particular thread was started because it was part of God's plan, it was His work, not mine. Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lori You were right. I scanned the whole thread and didn't see it last night. I knew the name ended in "i" :-). Okay Patti, Could you explain the, "About AD 33, give or take a few calendar errors." Mom took issue with that and I couldn't do anything with it. Am anxious to hear a bit more on it. Maryann | ||
| Cas |
Hi Kids, I am reading Hank Hanegraaff's new book called "Resurrection", I was reading it and came accross this statement by Hank and it made me think of George's question about being saved. Quoting on pg.148,149 "Jesus not only uses this parable (Matt.25;14-30)to point out that there will be rewards in eternity for our faithfulness, but he also uses it to underscore the fact that the judgment of our works will reveal whether our faith was genuine. If our faith is real, it will manifest itself in our works. Conversely, if we do not manifest good works, we demonstrate that our faith is not real. As James puts it, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him?" "We are saved by the kind of faith that produces good works-not by mere intellectual assent. As John calvin once put it, "It is...faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone." He also wrote a very interesting piece about the traditions of Sabbath, which I will post on another thread. God Bless you all. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cas, You are getting very close to the concept that I plan to post on one of these days. I have been out of SDAism longer than most of you, so, when I began thinking about God and coming back, I was so fortunate in hearing the gospel from so many Evangelicals. I heard concepts that some of you may not have heard yet. I really must get my little study completed. It will take time as I don't want to make any mistakes. Right now though, the heart is willing but the mind isn't. I'm so thankful for finding Hank and CRI several years ago. Even though he's a bit easy on the Catholics and SDAs, he helped me understand alot about "cults" and helped keep me out of trouble. Can you imagine that I was married for about 13 years before I understood, no, even knew that my husband was a Oneness Penticostal? I didn't even know such rubbish exisited till I heard Hank talk about it! What if I hadn't heard it? Maybe I would have been in it now myself. Actually, I don't think so as I definately don't fit the female UPC mold:-( Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear good friends, Although I don't have time to go into the biblical texts right now, I want to share my basic thought on "once saved, always saved." I believe that all who were predestined to be saved were saved indeed 20 centuries ago at the cross. This isn't Christ just paying for sin and waiting for us to cash in on that payment 20 centuries later. The idea that Christ paid for our sins but didn't at the same time save us, is unbiblical and ludicrous. How can you pay for someone's sin without at the same time saving the sinner? That is an abstract and absurd concept. Christ did not die to pay for some abstract quantity of sin as though salvation were so many shares of some Corporation of Heaven to be bought and sold on some cosmic stock exchange. Ugh, how repulsive! I challenge you to find so much as a single biblical text to support that! It's the kingdom of heaven, my fellow disciples, not the Corporation of Heaven. Keep that truth always before your face. You EXPERIENCE spiritual reality; you don't REIFY ("thingify") it. Christ died to save -- not stock certificates -- but sinners! People! You! Me! And that includes all people from Adam and Eve on down. Which answers the question about when we were saved. We were saved "once for all time." Sorry to disappoint you, but there just is no endless multitude of salvations just waiting to be picked off as new people are born onto the surface of planet earth! There is only one salvation, just as there is only one faith, one hope and one baptism. We were saved "while still in our sins" 20 centuries ago. Of course you're going to ask, "If we were saved before we were born, then why bother accepting Christ?" Good honest question. Wouldn't demean it for an instant. And it does deserve a good honest answer: You don't just accept salvation as something you don't already have. You accept it as something you DO already have! The fact that God has predestined everyone to be saved from a time long before the foundations of the earth were ever laid has got to have some real-life meaning here in real-space and and now in real-time. Your only real choice, then, is to RECOGNIZE your salvation in Christ. Thus, you were born already saved! Gasp? Sound like rank heresy? Hang on tight. If it does, you're reacting just like all the rest of us SAD formers have reacted to so radical a gospel. We all have to deal with our SAD past. But that doesn't mean the radical gospel isn't the lightning truth. Under the radical gospel of the real Jesus teaching and healing the sweaty crowds of the dirt-road towns of Judea 20 centuries ago, the problem then becomes only this: How can you reject so great a salvation? Of course you have your free will. But -- psst! -- consider this: maybe it's not as free as you think. Here's how free it really is: With enough effort and cooperation on the part of you and Satan acting together as a team, you can reject your Lord's salvation. It's a rough tough row to hoe, but if you just love sin enough, take heart, there's hope for you: It CAN be done! If Hitler could do it, so can you! It may take you a lifetime of determined effort and willpower to accomplish. But if you're willing to put in the Luciferian effort required, you can eventually reject your personal salvation in Jesus Christ. This is identical to driving or "grieving" the Holy Spirit away. Now don't miss the point here and start thinking that I'm arguing for a passive Christianity. Far from that! But that's another whole Discussion. Ready, on your mark, get set, go: start throwing the brickbats! Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Jude, A clarification, please. I have been in the midst of discussions on election on many fora (:>) lately. For me it is a very difficult issue. There are scriptural passages that seem to go both ways: total election and total free will. Having said that, I want to make it clear that there is no way that I think that what one believes about election affects salvation, any more than what I believe about gravity changes it in any way. However, it is interesting and edifying to probe these deep waters. Now, my question: Do you truly think that man has free will? If so, how is this made evident in our lives? If not, I will ask you other questions later. | ||
| BRUCE H |
Jude ---- You don't just accept salvation as something you don't already have. You accept it as something you DO already have! ----- Amen!!!!!!!!!!!! Cas sounds pretty Good, here is how I see it. -------"Jesus not only uses this parable (Matt.25;14-30)to point out that there will be rewards in eternity for our faithfulness, but he also uses it to underscore the fact that the judgment of our works will reveal whether our faith was genuine.--------- That is right, but for rewards only, salvation is not a reward it is a gift. -----If our faith is real, it will manifest itself in our works. Conversely, if we do not manifest good works, we demonstrate that our faith is not real. As James puts it, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him?" --- The Problem with most people is that they do not understand what works are (Or fruit). Most people think works are like going down to a hospital and helping old elderly people or Helping the poor or the homeless, or going to chirch or reading the Bible. But I do not believe that it is either one of these and I will prove it. If you did all these things and yet you did not bring even one person to the saving grace of Jesus Christ all you have done is bunch of horse manure as paul put it. No, works, or bearing fruit, can only be done when we bring another person to the saving grace of Jesus Christ (which he in turn will save and do works in), and this can only be done by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will only do this through us when we Obey. So it is not the works that we do by the Holy Spirit that saves us it is the Holy Spirit that saves by dwelling in us and it is the Holy Spirit who will work through us if we obey, remember Jesus gave the father all the credit for his work, so it must be God who is doing all the work in us........ "We are saved by the kind of faith that produces good works-not by mere intellectual assent. As John calvin once put it, "It is...faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone." It is true that when we have a clear understnding of the GOSPEL it will transform our lives but God will do it in his time and by his own way and only when we are his. He also wrote a very interesting piece about the traditions of Sabbath, which I will post on another thread. God Bless you all. I like the tradintion of ENTERING His Sabbath Rest how about all of you Bruce Heinrich I jude it is good to have you back. BH | ||
| Colleentinker |
Patti, I understand your question! I'm beginning to think, sometimes, that maybe we don't know enough to ask the right questions about free will. Maybe asking about free will is as limited as asking about God's foreknowledge. We are stuck on a three-dimensional planet. We can't see reality beyond our limits; we don't even have an explanation of WHY God created us in the first place. What if God created us for something besides companionship? What if God created us to play a role in his resolution of the sin problem? I believe that in an Earthly sense we do have free will. We are free to resist the Holy Spirit. But God uses all of our decisions and choices for his larger purposes. God is also free to hold people back from the Holy Spirit for a time in order to accomplish his larger plans. Paul says that God has limited the Jews functioning in the churcn (my words, not Paul's) until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Conversely, God chose Saul and accosted him on the road to Damascus without asking Saul's permission. On the other hand, Saul cooperated with Jesus after that. I'm beginning to think we can't see enough and don't know enough to ask the right questions. In a setting of infinity, if God created us for a divine purpose, do we really have free will? Why did God, who is EVERYWHERE, forever link himself to humanity (while still being fully Godóanother paradox) with a human mother who bore him? I believe we do have free will in our Earthly reality. But in a cosmic sense, maybe our free will looks completely different. The reality of this question, whatever it is, is a paradox. Maybe free will is really self-will. Maybe "free will" is what we exercise before we embrace the Holy Spirit in us. Maybe Christ-followers have "Spirit-will". Maybe Christians allow the Holy Spirit to inform their prayers, their choices, their decisions, their understanding, their knowledge. Maybe God's will really is the will of a Christ-follower. Maybe free will is what we exercise to choose either Jesus or Satan. Mayber after that choice, there's no actual free will! Full of ponderings but no absolute answers, I praise God for knowing me. Colleen | ||
| Joni |
"Maybe free will is what we exercise to choose either Jesus or Satan. Maybe after that choice, there's no actual free will!" Maybe this is when we become a slave to righteousness. After we choose Jesus. A slave has no freedom. We choose to have no freedom??? | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Patti and all, Loved what you wrote: "There are scriptural passages that seem to go both ways: total election and total free will." That's my non-specific answer to your question: There is both total election and total free will. This is another one of those mysteries -- many of them in paradox form -- of which our faith is full. Here are three of the most important ones: 1. We have both total election and total free will. God both knows the future and gives us free will anyway. 2. Jesus Christ is both 100% human and 100% God. 3. There are three persons in the godhead -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- but these three are identical or one. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one." So to your question: "Do you truly think that man has free will? If so, how is this made evident in our lives?" For a more specific answer, I look in John 8:31-36 NIV: To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." The freedom the Jews were talking about was being a free person in the context of the Roman empire. There were at least two kinds of slaves: 1. An indentured (contracted) servant who will be able to work off the terms of the agreement and eventually earn freedom. Onesimus MAY have been an example of one of these. If Onesimus was indentured, then Paul was sending him back to his master, Philemon, in order for him to work off the terms of his servitude. 2. An outright slave, captured, for example, in battle and forced into lifelong servitude. Or a child purchased from parents or just simply stolen and sold into a household for a lifetime of servitude. Joseph who was sold to Potipher, for example, was one of these. Or a slave, such as Ishmael, born into a household as the result of the master, such as Abraham, impregnating one of his female slaves, such as Hagar, to produce offspring in a way analogous to animal husbandry. Knowing these realities much better than you or I do, the Jews were incensed and indignant when Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." For they were Abraham's descendants, through his son Isaac and Isaac's son Jacob, "and have never been slaves of anyone." But Jesus wasn't talking about their societal freedom, but rather about what we are talking about in this Discussion: being slaves to sin. For all are born slaves to sin. Thus nobody has any free will. Unless Jesus Christ sets him free. So my more specific answer to your first question -- "Do you truly think that man has free will?" -- is this: No one who is without Christ has free will, but everyone who has Christ does. Your second question was, "If so, how is this made evident in our lives?" My more specific answer: Whithout Christ people are slaves to all sorts of addictions: Drugs, alcohol, sex, other human beings, cults, religion, vegetarianism, self-righteousness, rage, work (workaholism). Only Christ can free us. And if we accept him, we are free indeed. Hoping this helps clarify what I believe, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Colleen, You wrote: "What if God created us for something besides companionship? What if God created us to play a role in his resolution of the sin problem?" I agree and think you're onto something really BIG! God created us in order to save us! Wow! How much more profound that is than "God created us because he was lonely and wanted companionship." Being lonely and wanting companionship shows need, and to my knowledge God has no need. Need is a quality of the creation, not the Creator. If he NEEDED our companionship, then we would become important to him because we would possess something he NEEDS! Where is that in the Bible? That smacks more of EGW than the Bible. The "God needs us" concept, if it were a spiritual reality -- which I don't think it is -- would give us power over God and make him beholden to us in some way. Thus we would in some inappropriate sense "become like God" in having power over another sentient being, namely our Creator. Thought of in this way, the whole idea of such "companionship" seems dysfunctional in the extreme. Remember the reason God banished Adam and Eve from the garden? "The man has now become like one of us!" Godlikeness in this perverted sense is like saying, "I'M important because God NEEDS me, NEEDS my companionship, NEEDS my love. And -- guess what? -- I may even be able to EXPLOIT that need by praying more, working harder, giving more ... making God more and more dependent on ME. But God is NEVER mocked, not even in this purile sense. For, "The One enthroned hin heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 'I have installed my King [Jesus Christ = I AM] on Zion, my holy hill.'" God did not "install" Jesus because God needed us. Just for the sake of illustration, let's apply the "God needs our companionship" argument to the incarnation. And in so doing, let's "revise" John 3:16 NIV to match: "For God so NEEDED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever FILLS THAT NEED shall have the satisfaction -- not to mention, advantage! -- of helping out God in his time of NEED!" Never! "For God so LOVED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life." The God-needs-my-companionship concept is a terrible affront to his sovereignty. Nowhere does the Bible support such a controlling, manipulating idea. We cannot -- not even in our ignorance -- provide substitutes for God's motivation of unconditional love without incurring the penalty of being banished from his intimate presence. Creating us in order to save us tells us something about God's nature: that he never comes to us out of his need for us, but rather always out of our need for him. Thank you, Colleen, and bless you for that, Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Jude, I am not just picking on you, believe me. So please take my prodding in the spirit in which it is given--informational only, no judgments being made. Having made that disclaimer, let me ask you this. You wrote: "Whithout Christ people are slaves to all sorts of addictions: Drugs, alcohol, sex, other human beings, cults, religion, vegetarianism, self-righteousness, rage, work (workaholism). Only Christ can free us. And if we accept him, we are free indeed. " Here is my question: Are you saying that people who are caught up in addictions are not in Christ? I have heard so many people point to their victory over or lack of addiction and give this as evidence of Christ working in their lives. What about the athiests who have overcome or have no addictions in their lives? Is Christ working in them also? Likewise, can we say that if a person is suffering from addictions, he does not have Christ? Please don't banish me for asking these things. I think these are important questions. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| George |
Patti and Jude, Without looking back at a post I made about 3 weeks ago, this is the question I posed. If, with out me you can do nothing is true, how do alcholics and drug addicts stop their addictions? I don't remember this being fully addressed. Lets fully explore this line of thought from your hearts in a conversational manner. Input everybody? George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Patti, Your questions are good ones: 1. Are you saying that people who are caught up in addictions are not in Christ? 2. What about the athiests who have overcome or have no addictions in their lives? 3. Is Christ working in them also? 4. Can we say that if a person is suffering from addictions, he does not have Christ? I'll try to take them one at a time. 1. Are you saying that people who are caught up in addictions are not in Christ? No, not at all. How could I (or we or anybody) ever judge such a thing as that? It's not my job to judge. Jesus says, "Judge not that ye be not judged." Nobody is ever freed entirely from the nemesis of sin in this earthly life. 1 John 1:8-10 NIV: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinnned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." 2. What about the athiests who have overcome or have no addictions in their lives? How could you or I or any other human being ever know that? Do you suppose that Christ cannot save atheists? I would assert that any atheist who has been saved has been saved by Christ and Christ alone. For, "There is none other name under heaven whereby we must be saved." I would also assert that many atheists who have been so-called Christians but have become atheist, have done so for all the RIGHT reasons, and that Christ honors those reasons. Who are we to think to get into an atheist's head and judge his spiritual relationship with the Holy Spirit? Give his personal situation over to God. Don't interfere. Your responsibility is limited to witnessing and does not extend into the area of judging even an atheist's spiritual standing with God. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." True Christianity is full of wonderful mysteries, and this is one of them. Don't even think about trying to second-guess God. 3. Is Christ working in them (atheists) also? Is Christ ever NOT working in anybody, even atheists? Let's let God be God. 4. Can we say that if a person is suffering from addictions, he does not have Christ? Let's hear Paul in Romans 7:14-8:2 NIV: *********** We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from the body of death? Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. *********** Sounds to me as though Paul was suffering from addictions. And I would be the last to argue that Paul did not have Christ. Many blessings to you, Patti. Hope this helps, Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Jude I really like what you said up there a couple of lines back | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanks, Bruce, But I don't know specificially what you liked? Maybe you could point it out? | ||
| Colleentinker |
By the way, Jude, I agree that when we accept Christ we are free indeed and have "free will". And as sinners, we are not free. We are slaves to sin. In a larger sense, however, my question about whether or not we really have free will is not, "Are we completely free to make volitional, rational choices?" Rather, it is more like, "As subjects of God's sovereignty, perhaps our free will is within a context of His will. Perhaps our wills as Christ followers is really the will of the Spiritówhich we freely choose to make our own." As for the sin problemóI suspect the sin problem has affected the universe, not just our planet or solar system. As a good friend of mine has said, "Sin is a tear in the fabric of the universe." Perhaps God needed to work out the sin problem somehonw with creations who had souls, choice, and intelligence. Perhaps God needed to involve such a race for reasons we don't quite see. Perhaps God need a contained area to work out this probolem so the infection wouldn't spread. Perhaps he created us for these reasons. I like that, Judeó"God created us to save us!" |
