| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Revelation 19:10 NIV says, "At this I fell at his [the angel's] feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothres who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Now if "the testimony of Jesus" is the gospel --not Ellen G. White's writings -- then to be consistent with the text we have to say that the gospel is "the spirit of prophecy." But I personally would not want to be put into the position of confessing that Ellen G. White is "the gospel." That would be more than heresy. That would be blasphemy. So if "the testimony of Jesus" is the unadulterated gospel -- "believe and be saved" -- then it has to be the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit is the one who came after Jesus ascended into heaven. Am I right or wrong? | ||
| Sherry |
I'm not really sure. I want to go borrow my friends greek/hebrew concordance and study that out some more. I know it's not Ellen G. White's writings though. I do think that is blasphemous. And scary. Just newly leaving the church, I can't hardly believe that people blindly go along with this. But I'm not sure what that phrasing does mean. If I learn something from the concordance, I'll share it. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Sherry, I'll be looking forward to your discoveries. Yes, please do keep us all posted. Peace past understanding, Jude | ||
| dwayne |
Every Christian does have, and will give, a testimony of his Savior Jesus Christ. The testimony of Jesus Christ is the very essence, the very spirit, of prophecy. Giving this testimony is the true believer's honor and privilege! And this is my testimony... The True Spirit of Prophecy is not dead, is not a dead woman, but is the very much alive Holy Spirit of God! For He Alone is Worthy! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I think you've got it, Dwane! | ||
| Dennis J. Fischer |
Dwane, Your concluding statements are superb! Having Jesus and His Spirit, who could we possibly need additionally? Elder James White strongly opposed his wife becoming a test of fellowship. Willie White helped his mother become a doctrine of the church during the Kellogg crisis in the early 20th century. This action by the church was designed to show EGW the winner in this historic, power struggle. | ||
| dwayne |
Thank you, Dennis. I wasn't aware of the history, but it is telling. Jesus and His Spirit... Amen! For He Alone is Worthy! | ||
| Cindy |
Dwayne, Hi! I really like what you said, "the testimony of Jesus is the essence, the very spirit, of prophecy. Giving this testimony is the true believer's honor and privilege." And, how true!!... "the spirit of prophecy is not a dead woman, but the very much alive Holy Spirit of God!" I don't know how many of you keeep up with the Sabbath School Quarterly, but again, still-- the church is equating Ellen White to the Testimony of Jesus. See Tuesday, May 23; the question is asked, "How does the book of Revelation define "the testimony of Jesus"? Rev. 12:17; 19:10. The authors of the quarterly then write: "God's end-time remnant also have the gift of prophecy given, in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, through His messenger, Ellen G. White. Her ministry has been a tremendous blessing to the church. Only today are world scientists catching up with her nineteenth-century counsels on diet and health. Adventists health institutions, established in response to prophetic counsel, bring healing to many areound the world. Her interest in the development of Christian education and institutions has also brought dignity and understanding to millions of students. Her guidance in the formation of church government has given the church strength." This section ends with the words: "But even more important than her contribution to the functioning of the church has been her emphasis upon the Bible. She always saw herself as a lesser light to lead to the greater light". (see Colporteur Ministry, p.125). I loved when someone wrote here, "do we really need a flashlight to find the Sun?!!" The Son of Rightousness shines brightly in the Scriptures!! As to EGW's emphasis on the Bible...that is all fine and good until you start finding things in the Bible that don't agree with her "inspired commentary". Then... who's authority are you to take?? S.D.A.'s 27 Fundlemental Beliefs state that she is "a continuing and authoritative source of truth". You can't have it both ways!! Dennis, I haven't read much about the history of Kellogg; sounds like it would be worth checking out. Where can you read some uncensored material? It's getting late where I am and I've spent enough time on this forum today! (keep coming back and forth to it...) I'm going to have to get some other things done tomorrow!! Blessings to all! As always, a debtor to His surpassing Grace, Cindy | ||
| Max |
SDA Apologist Walter M. Booth, Ph.D: ELLEN WHITE'S THEOLOGY "AMONG THE BEST" IN HISTORY After you get over your shock at this hubris and chutzpah, read this: "I am convinced that Ellen White's theology satisfies the most essential characteristics of the best in a long line of theological tradition. Again, she has given us a theology that (1) is purely biblical and comprehensive, (2) shows a balance between positive and negative, between theoretical and practical -- with heavier emphasis on the positive and practical, and (4) is humane and dynamic. "Surely, had she published a systematic formulation of her theological views, her high standing as a theologian would be acknowledged. I am convinced that, either she was all that she claimed to be or her theological thought must be regarded as one of the most impressive achievements of the human spirit." --Walter M. Booth, "Ellen White, Theologian?" MINISTRY: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL FOR [SDA] PASTORS, October 2000, p.5-7. | ||
| Cindy |
Morning Max... Unbelievably sad...I guess I don't miss not getting this magazine anymore. :-)) Thanks, though, Max, for keeping us updated on their continuuing exaltation of EGW. "Purely biblical"?..."positive and practical"? If this is all true, we better really study deeply into all her writings and follow them much more closely than we do! Have you read the nine volumes of the "Testimonies" lately!!?? They are so "positive and practical"!!! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Loneviking |
Purely biblical and comprehensive? I have a twelve year old daughter that found out what a lie that was the other day. She does go to an SDA academy and was wanting help with her Bible project. Wouldn't you know it was about Satan and EGW's assertion that the whole controversy was over God's law. Of course, there was also the whole description (from EGW) of how this all played out in heaven. I handed my daughter a Bible and asked her to show me where this was in the Bible. I took her to Ezekial 38 where there is a description of Satan, and Revelation---the only two areas that speak of the 'war in heaven'. I asked her if any mention is made of 'Gods' law' being the issue? I asked her if she thought it was O.K. to just add to the Bible? I pointed out to her the texts in Galatians, chap. 1 that says that if anyone comes preaching a different gospel--even if its' an angel---let them be 'anathema!'. She got the point, but she is rather confused because she has teachers that tell her one thing (usually that the Bible dosen't mean what it says or needs to be added too), and then I pick up the Bible and show her that the Bible dosen't say that! Anyway, she's learning and often goes with me to the Church of Christ where she has a number of friends and enjoys going. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out...... | ||
| Cas |
Hi Lone~ Last year my daughter went to a SDA School and they had an Ellen White week. My daughter came home talking about Ellen and how many visions she had and how she had an angel that spoke to her etc, etc. Also one other time she came home and told me it takes 7 days to get to heaven!! I was quite disturbed because normally the school did not get into a lot of doctrinal/EGW issues in the past. There are so many non SDA that attend, but I am not sure if that is the reason. Anyway I was pretty agitated but I decided I had to talk to her about it then let it go. After all it is a Adventist school. We moved to the next town and I have put her into a non denominational Christian school. I think you handled your situation with your daughter wonderfully! <>< Blessings, ~CAS~ | ||
| Colleentinker |
Cas--I just have to say I'm thrilled you've got your daughter in a Christian school. I remember last year when you were wondering about what to do. I'm so happy to hear what you've done! We'd love to see you again if you're in the area-- Colleen | ||
| Billtwisse |
There is no 'Great Controversy' in the Bible. God doesn't engage in any controversy or debate with the devil. His plan of salvation is the ONLY real issue in history! Satan (whom God created evil--John 8:44) is merely a pawn that God uses to accomplish his redemptive purposes. The testimony of Jesus (Rev. 19:10--the true gospel) is the spirit of prophecy--nothing else. John was exiled to Patmos for no other purpose (Rev. 1:3, 9). --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Bill, You're exegesis of the term "the spirit of prophecy" in Revelation is corrrect. The text does mean "the essence of prophecy" and only that. However, I don't think you would deny the presence of the Holy Spirit in "the essence of prophecy," would you? After all, John does write, "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit" (Revelation 1:10) referring to the Holy Spirit. And therefore the entire prophecy of Revelation must be the work of the Holy Spirit. It is this thought that leads me to wonder why it is that Reformation theology, even today, still doesn't seem to want to include the Holy Spirit expressly and explicitly in the assertion: "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Or, for that matter, the very act of justification itself. For example, here is a quote from Roger S. Evans, Ph.d., who is assistant professor of church hisory at Payne Theological Seminary in Pickerington, Ohio. ^^ The Lutheran teachings on justification in the sixteenth century have nothing to say about the work of the Holy Spirit. This is not to say that they did not recognize the work of the Holy Spirit, but the teachings on the act of justification focused on the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. Justification was an act of God through Christ for humanity. However, two of the confessions of the Joint Declaration [on the Doctrine of Justification, Augsburg, Germany, 1999] reveal their willingness to include the work of the Holy Spirit in the work of justification. Paragraph 15 states, "In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triume God." the sixteenth-century Lutherans would not have denied this, but because the work the Holy Spirit was commonly thought of as an ongoing work in us, rather than an act of God through Jesus Christ for us, it would not have occurred to them to use this language. ^^ ["Justification in Lutheranism and Catholicism: From Conflict to Conversation," Ministry, November 2000.] My point of pondering is this: If Evans is correct, then is this tendency to overlook the activity of the Holy Spirit in the "gospel = justification" equation the true source of so much bitter misunderstanding even today? And not just between Catholics and Protestants, but also between some Protestants and other Protestants? And I would venture further to wonder whether the current opposition within the Lutheran community today to the Joint Declaration is not motivated to some extent to a desire to adhere to that same tendency: it still doesn't occur to them to include the Holy Spirit in the "language" of justification doctrine. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Max: I can only 'scratch the surface' on this one. The Lutherans might point to John 16:13,14 to defend their position. The Holy Spirit is sent to magnify Christ's person and work--not himself. He is often spoken of as the 'opaque' member of the Trinity. Nonetheless, it is important to understand the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation. Although I don't wear the 'Calvinist' label for certain reasons, I do believe that tradition to be more in-line with the biblical perspective on the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit's baptism--no one can believe on Christ, confess Jesus as Lord, or have power for Christian living or witness. Holy Spirit baptism or regeneration is necessary before a person can believe the gospel. Some Reformation theologians in the Lutheran and Wesleyan traditions are suspicious of the notion that persons must be regenerated in order to believe (unto justification). The idea promoted is that logically--justification must precede sanctification. That reasoning has a definite flaw. The primary justification that saves is historical and objective--finished in the atonement and redemptive work of Christ. That justification (Rom. 5:18) is the basis of regeneration--not the personal justification declared by God at the moment of faith. The objective proceeds the subjective in any case. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Bill, I find nothing to disagree with in your analysis. But I personally believe that: 1. The Holy Spirit was active on the cross in that, for instance, one of Christ's names given to him before his birth was "Wonderful Counselor" (Isaiah 9:6). 2. Heart believers are declared sanctified and perfect just as they are declared justified -- by an alien sinlessness totally apart from any works of the law. NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, WE HAVE BEEN MADE HOLY through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Max: I agree with you! The term 'sanctification' in the NT does not mean what Western theology has ascribed to the term. The word has been misused like many others. Our sanctification (being set apart unto God as holy) is perfect, complete, and fully accomplished in the person and work of Christ! It is not a process of gradually becoming holy--that is something entirely different. --Twisse |
