| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Instead of listening to Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, hear Paul (Romans 14:5,6 NIV): ^^^^^^^^^^^ One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day [Sunday, for instance] as special, does so to the Lord. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Any comments? Remember, you must use the Bible and the Bible only! | ||
| Maryann |
Wow Jude, This is what this Forum is about! Thanks for taking the lead on such important subjects. Giving each it's own "thread" was a grand idea! Onward and upward, Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanks, Maryann. | ||
| Steve |
Amen Jude. This scripture is the absolute finest scripture for keeping of a day that I've found. In fact you can even support Sabbath keeping from it. But I've NEVER known a Sabbath keeper to use it, because it would silence their argument that it must be kept by all Christians today. By using this scripture, you can support seventh-day Sabbath keeping, Sunday keeping, Muslim Friday keeping, Bahai Every-Ninth day keeping, etc. But according to the whole of the Rom. 14 passage, the problem is once you put aside a day, you may NOT tell others that they must keep that day. So Sabbath keeping is lifted up (individually), and shot down (corporately) in the same verse. [Wonderful set of threads, BTW.] God Bless (keeping Tuesday Afternoon), Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Steve, Does Paul allow keeping a twenty-four hour period from 3:00 PM Tuesday afternooon to 3:00 PM Wednesday afternoon? Or does he allow half days? Just wondering, Jude | ||
| Steve |
HA! Well, to be absolutely scriptural on this point, I guess half-days aren't included. After all, the scripture you use does say "one who considers a DAY . . . " But is that a literal 24 hour day, or could it be an "age" or an "aeon"? I guess one could make the argument that once I begin keeping a day (aeon) that I have started keeping that "day" and that day never ends (until I stop keeping it). So I guess we could say, "Happy Aeon". BTW, have you ever heard anyone greet another with the phrase "Happy Sunday"? Just curious. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Steve, I wonder if Paul -- when he allowed the Gentile Christians in Rome to keep "a day," as long as it was "unto God," rather than "unto self" -- if he worried about their slipping into Jewish legalism and Pharisaism. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Steve, Can't say that I have ever heard anyone greet another with the phrase "Happy Sunday." I've heard "Happy Easter!" a lot on Easter Sunday. Did you know there's another Easter? An Eastern Orthodox Easter feast day which falls on an actual Hebrew date, the 14th of Nisan, like our Christmas falls on December 25 and not on Sunday every year. Just a little factoid, Jude | ||
| jtree |
a slip in from the ol adventist newsgroup. I quoted.. > For if the first covenant (the ten commandments) ahd been faultless, then should > no place have been sought for a second (covenant). Heb 8:7 > And the following is one "John Doe" reply: "So you are saying God created a faulty Law? The fault lied with THEM(the Israelites) Back up to verse 6. Heb 8:6 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. NKJV Are God's promises faulty? NO! Israel promised Ex 19:7-8 8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." NKJV The New Covenant is based on better promises, Heb 8:8-9:1 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. NKJV Same Law, better promise. He will do it. through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Rom 8:3-4 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV Your a dispensationalist. Even many Protestants do not believe this. God does not change to fit man's needs. God is perfect. His law is perfect. Man is imperfect. Because we have sinned. God's law demands perfect obediance or death. Since we where incapable of ourselves of keeping His law, and because we were under the curse-death sentence, God sent His Son. To be a curse for us. He died that we may live. He perfectly kept the law. This perfect life is ours by faith. We stand perfect before God. Yet Jesus came also to deliver us FROM sin. That is to live IN US through faith. Guess what He does in us? He lives that same Law obediant life through us. If God could have saved us by doing away with His law, Jesus didn't need to die. But God is also just, and righteous.Yes we are saved by Grace alone. Yet those who are saved will love God and keep His commandments. Not because it saves them, but because they truly appreciate what it cost; the life of the Son of God. We then as believers hate sin, not because it might keep us out of heaven or hell, but because every sin we committ was placed upon the the loving Saviour. When you realize the depths of God's love for you, that He was willing to give up eternal life forever for you, to become cursed for you, to accept the second death for you, what then, continue to sin in light of this? Continue in rebellion and lawbreaking in light of this? That's sad ! We can not observe God's law of ourselves. But the Holy Spirit can. Is the Holy Spirit stronger than our sinful nature? Yes! We need only believe. So then, the 10 commandments are really 10 promises." I have yet to reply to "John Doe".... any comments? | ||
| Rayna |
jtree I do not think that even with the aid of the Holy Spirit in our lives, that we can keep the 10 commandments to be righteous BEFORE GOD.. In Romans it states, that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Righteousness before God does not come from the keeping of any law or performing any good works. The only righteousness that is acceptable to God is His righteousness displayed in Jesus. Whosoever believes that God through His mercy, and not because of an;ything is us, gave us His Son to be our Righteousness before Him, God accepts as His son and accounts Him righteous through out his life. We need to contemplate more about what God has given us in Christ. We will always be sinners in this life because of our sinful nature. It pollutes all we do, but God accepts us as His children. Our sins are not imputed to us, we are forgiven because we have accepted Jesus. Jesus died for the sins of the world present past and future. Our faith in God's word is counted for righteousness. God is to be glorified through the gift of His son. His mercy and love are displayed to sinful man through Jesus. The gospel is not about us, it is about the work of God for us in Jesus. | ||
| Rayna |
The keeping of the Sabbath or of any day without sin will never be in this life. We walk by faith. Faith is believing in what we do not see. We can see people struggling to keep the Sabbath, trying to figure out how to keep it, what not to do, what to do? What a frustration!! I can remember being afraid I would sin by cooking on the Sabbath, or disobeying God in any way by breaking the Sabbath. Then I found out that other people did the things I feared to do on the Sabbath. What confusion. Where is the reasoning? We are not called upon the keep the 10 commandments under the New Covenant and that includes the Sabbath. Has one ever thought about what this world would truly be like if everyone quit working on one day a week? What a thought! Impossible! Life cannot stop for 24 hours. Life goes on! What would Adventist do if all planes quit flying, all electricity, gas, water, the police, fireman, and all occupations quit for one day? Might have to bring candles to church and when the criminals learned that the police had taken off, we would be in real trouble. Lets be realistic here. | ||
| Rayna |
Excuse my grammar. I need to read my post more closely. My post should read "When criminals hear that the police are"keeping the Sabbath" which condemns work on that day, the world will become turmoil. Evil will always be here on earth. It is just a delusion to think that the keeping of the Sabbath is the the "final test" to decide those that will be saved. The keeping of a day for God can only be considered an offering of thankfulness for all that God has given us in Jesus. | ||
| Cas |
Instead of listening to Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, hear Paul (Romans 14:5,6 NIV): ^^^^^^^^^^^ One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day [Sunday, for instance] as special, does so to the Lord. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Jude, How do you answer SDA's who say this verse is referring to Holy festival days? | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I ask them to prove it from the Bible and the Bible alone. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I would also add that the Old Testament does not distinguish IN TERMS OF HOLINESS among (1) yearly festival sabbaths, (2) monthly (new moon) festival sabbaths, and (3) the weekly *festival sabbath. And so, I would agree that that Romans 14 INCLUDES -- but does not LIMIT its message to -- the yearly festival sabbaths. *The weekly sabbath was NO LESS a festival (feast day) than any of the others. It was, for instance, considered a sin to fast on the sabbath, ANY sabbath (weekly, monthly or yearly). You had to fast on another day. My reasons for this conclusion: 1. Paul would have no motive to limit his instruction to the yearly sabbaths as distinguished (cut off) from the others. For, IN NO INSTANCE does the Old Testament (the only "Scripture" of Paul's day) distinguish among them in terms of holiness -- need to rest and "to not do ANY work." They are "all of a piece," and if one goes, they ALL go. Therefore, in an extremely important sense, Paul here is giving them their due "sendoff." 2. The yearly and monthly sabbaths were never an issue APART from the weekly sabbath. Nor apart from circumcision, or clean v. unclean meats, for that matter. Not to mention the full 613 laws, such as "no wearing a cloak of mixed linen and wool [Deuteronomy 22:11]." It was "the whole ball of wax," "the whole enchilada," "the whole nine yards" that was at issue, nothing less. You either kept the whole "law of 613 laws" as a way to salvation or you considered all 613 as fulfilled in Christ. 3. Romans 14 is interesting in that there Paul allowed for people to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy, the new moon Sabbath days holy, and the yearly festival Sabbath days holy. Conversely you could keep the first day holy, which was also considered the Resurrection day and the "Lord's day," SDA arguments to the contrary notwithstanding (considering the usage of the term "the Lord's day" in the writings of the early church fathers, who were NOT, incidentally, Roman Catholics). Or you could keep all 7 days holy, all 30-31 days of the month holy (Roman calendar, Hebrew calendar, who cares?), and all 365 days of the year holy. Do you see how clever Paul was (in the Spirit)? He effectively destroyed the seventh-day Sabbath AS A TEST of righteousness by ALLOWING Jewish Christians (the SDAs of his time) to keep it. At the same time he effectively DENIED them the right to IMPOSE the weekly Sabbath (along with the monthly and yearly Sabbaths) on the Gentile Christians in Rome and, indeed, all over the Empire. In order to argue as your SDA friends do, one has to be totally ignorant of the contextual evidence as well as the circumstantial evidence (political, economic, social, racial, religious, educational climate, etc.) of the time and place. Plus to accommodate such SDA reasoning -- and by NO means do all SDAs reason this way -- one has to twist one's brain into a pretzel. Does this answer your question? Jude | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Dear Jude, Please reconcile for me the text Rom.3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary,we establish the law." And again,Rom.6:1&2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" How is sin defined? By the law. "for where there is no law there is no transgression." Are we sin free? Do you still contend that the gospel's New Covenant abolishes the law? | ||
| Max |
Hi Wendy, Thanks for pointing out Romans 3:31. It does sound contradictory to what Paul says elsewhere -- doesn't it? -- such as we are not under law but under grace. I think Romans 6 and 7 explain the FUNCTION of the law (Heb. "Torah" = Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy). The Old Testament statement of the law is intended to lead us to the New Testament statement of the law, which is the Person of Jesus Christ our Savior and includes "his" commandments (as opposed to the Ten Commandments), his ministry, his words, his life, death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven where he sat down at the right hand of the Father. In other words the old covenant statement of the law is replaced by the new covenant statement of the law. The next text you quote is: ^^ Rom.6:1&2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" ^^ Before we go any further in this discussion you need to understand that I dissociate myself from those on this website who say that God's real grace allows us to be saved in our sins and allows us to do just as we please. Jesus never taught that, nor Paul, nor Luther, nor any Christian who takes up his cross and follows Jesus, crucifies his sinful nature, and dies daily to self. As long as we understand each other on this vital point, we can continue our discussion. Under real grace alone, Jude the Obscure = Max Gordon Phillips | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Israel had to have the law to be consious of sin. Paul also said that where there was no law, there was no sin. Even though sin reigned on earth, when people weren't conscious of wrongdoing, they had no way to evaluate themselves as to sin or obedience. God gave the law to establish the consuming presence of sin. We in the New Covenant do not negate that. We establish the law! Jesus' death and resurrection would have been meaningless without the establishment of universal sin on earth. But Jesus also fulfilled the law. That doesn't mean the law is annihilated; it means it is fulfilledóit is a part of a system that we no longer need because Jesus fulfilled it and we have a New means of righteousnessóJesus Christ himself, who died to heal the damage of sin and restore us personally to the heart of God! The law is still useful for people who do not know Jesus. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, people do need some system of recognizing their sin, and the law is still useful for pointing out their hopelessness. But the law was never intended to make us righteous; it was only intended to point out our unrighteousness. Once people know they're hopelessly depraved, then they are ready to look to Jesus for salvation. Now, because of the cross, we have the New Covenant. The old covenant and its law (including the 10 commandments) was fulfilled; in the new, we live by the indwelling Living Lawóthe Holy Spirit. The law points out sin and brings despair; Jesus gives freedom, forgiveness, and his righteousness to us. The law can't do that, and we can't keep the law under any circumstances. We were never meant to keep it! We were always meant to accept the righteousness of Messiah, our Savior, the only perfect Lamb who could take away our sin and drape his holiness over us! Colleen | ||
| Max |
So well said, Colleen, as usual! | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
If we were never meant to keep the law why does Christ say that those who will share Heaven with Him are those that keep His commandments? Do you place Paul's writings over Christ's teachings? We can achieve perfect obedience of the law because when we fall Christ's blood covers us. Yes, Christ did intend for us to keep His law perfectly, but only, as His teachings point out, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only all that is Holy and Pure will dwell with Him in Heaven. Do you think we will be magically changed to perfection so that we can dwell in Heaven. No. We are being perfected here on this Earth by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not strive to be perfect. And this is not a burden because we love Jesus therefor our burden is light. Is it not much lighter than carrying the burden of eternal death? Wendy | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Max, Who wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger? Is this not HIS commands? And I yield the point that you do not join those that believe you can be saved in your sins and willfully continue a life of sin, and yet expect salvation. Wendy | ||
| Max |
Hi Wendy, Several points: 1. When Colleen (I think) said "we were never meant to keep the law," she meant perfectly. That is God knew we couldn't keep it perfectly before he gave it to us humans. We couldn't even keep it passably. And if Paul in Romans 3 is correct, we couldn't even keep it at all. And keeping it was not its purpose: It's purpose was to show us that we couldn't keep it. It's like, when you were four years old (I'll bet you were a darling four-year-old!), your daddy asked you to jump to the moon. And you tried and tried and tried and failed and failed and failed. He knew you couldn't do that before he asked you to do it. But maybe he wanted to teach you that there were rocket ships that could take people there! Christ is our rocket ship! 2. When Christ says those who will share heaven with Him will keep His commandments, he means exactly that: His commandments. Not Moses' commandments. In the sermon on Mt. Blessings Jesus keeps quoting from the Old Testament law: You have heard of old time that it hath been said, Thou shalt not commit murder. But I say unto you that if you harbor hatred toward your brother you are a murderer. In other words, he was rewriting Moses' commandments with HIS commandments. In the New Testament the word "commandments" almost never refers to the Ten Commandments, at least not AS a commandment. I can't think of a single instance. Can you? 3. ^^ Do you place Paul's writings over Christ's teachings? ^^ No, under. Christ's teachings inform Paul's writings, and Paul's writings plus the rest of the New Testament inform the Old Testament. Christ is THE starting point, ALWAYS, not Paul, and certainly not Moses. 4. Nowhere in all the Bible, Old Testament or New, can you find so much as a single text saying that Christ's blood covers us. Christ's blood ALWAYS CLEANSES us. It never covers us. That is an Ellen G. White statement. And it is totally unscriptural. 5. The purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not to enable us to keep the law perfectly. It is to enable people who are already perfectly sinless in Christ to live and walk in the kingdom of heaven that is within and among us (Luke 17:20-21), to be disciples of Christ, to grow in grace, to preach, teach, help, etc. But not to enable us to earn salvation by virtue of keeping the law. 6. ^^ Do you think we will be magically changed to perfection so that we can dwell in Heaven? ^^ No, since we already dwell in heaven. There are not two kingdoms of heaven, only one. It has been called "the now and future" kingdom of heaven. I don't have time to go into that study now, but Scripture says that the kingdom of heaven started "breaking out" on earth at the time John the Baptist babtized Jesus. Jesus is God. Where God is, heaven is. As the old adage says, "The kingdom of heaven is under our feet, as well as over our heads." The only thing that will be "changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is mortality into immortality -- this is a great mystery: "Behold, I tell you a mystery!" That's in Handel's "Messiah." "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." It's so gorgeous! 7. ^^Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not strive to be perfect. ^^ Oh, but we ARE perfect, perfect in Christ. And so "striving to be perfect" is a misnomer. Jesus says, "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." And the only way to be THAT perfect, is to be perfect in Christ, a condition that happens in an instant. You, Wendy, for example, are perfect in Christ RIGHT NOW. Of that I have absolutely no doubt at all. If you want to think of "growing in grace" as becoming "more perfect," think of a rose bud opening. As a bud it is perfect, and as a fully developed flower it is perfect. In Christ you are perfect all the time. You do not go from imperfect to perfect; that is an unscriptural concept. 8. ^^ And this is not a burden because we love Jesus therefor our burden is light. Is it not much lighter than carrying the burden of eternal death? ^^ Amen, Wendy, well said! Love in Christ to you, Max | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, I feel very sad by your above post where you said the following: "Before we go any further in this discussion you need to understand that I disassociate myself from those on this website who say that God's real grace allows us to be saved in our sins and allows us to do just as we please. Jesus never taught that, nor Paul, nor Luther, nor any Christian who takes up his cross and follows Jesus, crucifies his sinful nature, and dies daily to self. As long as we understand each other on this vital point, we can continue our discussion." I guess I am one who you will disassociate from on this website. I still say, gratefully, that JESUS DOES SAVE ME IN MY SINS! If I didn't have that Hope and Assurance, I would never have continued in my spiritual life... maybe not even in my physical life, since I have had circumstances in my life that have led me to despair many times. But Praise God, He has my Strength when I have had none! He has been my Courage when I have been afraid! He has been my Rock of Refuge to which I can always go! I remain infected with the SIN of Adam, I continue to have SINS of commission and of ommission in deed, thoughts, and even motives each day. I want to grow more like Jesus and I know the only way I can do this is by living daily IN His free grace--unmerited favor to me, an unworthy sinner! Real grace 'allows' us a lot! Real Grace is a Gift! Real grace is the best thing a person can possess! Real grace is JESUS! Because I believe in Christ crucified for me, I also know the Holy Spirit has been promised to be with me. He will lead me to desire only what Jesus wants. Because of His Indescribable Gift, I WANT to love the Lord my God with all my Heart, and with all my Soul, and with all my Mind...This is doing as I please!! I WANT to learn more about Jesus, I WANT to be led by Him, I WANT to study His Word where there is a wealth of instruction in Godliness! I don't mean doing as I please in a negative selfish way, but in a positive way. If I am not doing what I please freely in Christ, then I'm back trying to measure up to some other standard constantly. I have lived too long under a qualified grace... I want to live in the spacious tableland of His Sufficient Grace. He gives us such wonderful freedom, it is a JOY to follow Him! I guess these really are vital points to you Max, as they are to me! May Jesus alone be our peace... I would like to continue associating with you. You are valuable to me, not only because you are created by God! and so you are my 'brother'(scary thought, huh!?), but also because my Jesus is also yours... As ever, in debt to His Grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Cindy, You know as well as I do that being "saved in one's sins" is an ambiguous phrase. For most people, I would guess, it would mean that real grace gives permission to keep right on sinning that grace may abound all the more, as Paul says. But for you appearantly it doesn't mean that: What does it mean as you use it? Your brother in Christ, Max | ||
| Steve |
Max and Cindy, Maybe I'm infected with so much sin that you may want to be wary of associating with me as well. I'm filthy. Period. No good thing resides in me. So now where do I go? Steve | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Now I'm not just sticking up for Max 'cause he said I was an adorable 4 year old( I won't touch that one). I really appreciate the way he is handling all of this, and I feel I've stirred things up a bit. There was a little too much back-patting but lets not get upset. I just think that Max wanted to explain his take on things just like the rest of us. He certainly didn't mean that he wouldn't associate with people if they didn't agree with his viewpoint. We are accepted as sinful beings, but once we see that we can't just flop around helplessly and say I'm icky and there is nothing I can do about it. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Doesn't that mean ANYTHING?" Keeping God's laws perhaps which are eternal? We can't do it ourselves but We can through Him. And thanks for the pat on the back Max. %) | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Cindy, You don't mean in your note that you can do whatever you please simply because you are saved.Do you. It comes across that way so I'm just trying to clarify. Take care,Wendy | ||
| Steve |
I ran into too many people in the church who wouldn't associate with people that had various problems -- smoking, drinking, homosexuality, other issues. I must admit that I react strongly when I hear that kind of statement. It seems completely opposite to what Jesus was all about. Although I'm sure Cindy will answer for herself, I have also said that we can do "whatever" we please. However, when I say that, I'm also saying that what we please may be totally different than what we would have pleased before coming to Him. But God will judge, not humans. | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Thanks for answering... I don't know how I could say anymore to explain my thoughts on how I believe I am 'saved in my sins'... Real Grace is freely given! Real Grace takes the risk of being abused! Real Grace gives permission for me to acknowledge my great sinfulness always...and thus, my need always for a Great, All-sufficient Saviour! Wendy, Again, I don't know that I can clarify any more on the freedom Christ has given me to finally live freely under grace and, in loving Him with my life, 'do as I please'... Steve, thanks for your various posts tonight--on other threads as well as this one. You've had some good thoughts, as usual. I'm too weary to respond to anymore tonight. Forever a debtor to His Real Grace, Cindy | ||
| Darrell |
I have found a beautiful expression of the gospel called "The Gospel of Jesus Christ: an Evangelical Celebration". The whole document can be read at http://www.harborlighthouse.org, but to whet your appetite, here are some excerpts relevant to this discussion: 12. We affirm that the doctrine of the imputation (reckoning or counting) both of our sins to Christ and of his righteousness to us, whereby our sins are fully forgiven and we are fully accepted, is essential to the biblical Gospel (2 Cor. 5:19-21). We deny that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ infused into us or by any righteousness that is thought to inhere within us. 13. We affirm that the righteousness of Christ by which we are justified is properly his own, which he achieved apart from us, in and by his perfect obedience. This righteousness is counted, reckoned, or imputed to us by the forensic (that is, legal) declaration of God, as the sole ground of our justification. We deny that any works we perform at any stage of our existence add to the merit of Christ or earn for us any merit that contributes in any way to the ground of our justification (Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). 14. We affirm that while all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are in the process of being made holy and conformed to the image of Christ, those consequences of justification are not its ground. God declares us just, remits our sins, and adopts us as his children, by his grace alone, and through faith alone, because of Christ alone, while we are still sinners (Rom. 4:5). We deny that believers must be inherently righteous by virtue of their cooperation with God's life-transforming grace before God will declare them justified in Christ. We are justified while we are still sinners. |
