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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Newsflash! SDA Exclusive! GOD-ON-EARTH SMASHES SABBATH LAW! « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 2, 2000jtree20 6-02-00  5:09 am
Archive through June 8, 2000sherry20 6-08-00  10:54 pm
Archive through June 13, 2000Maryann20 6-13-00  11:47 am
Archive through June 14, 2000Bruce H20 6-14-00  6:05 pm
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Max
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2000 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce, it was a gift of God, pure grace.
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2000 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In his book "Classic Christianity", Bob George describes this holiness dilemma better than anyone else I've read. He points out that when we accept Jesus, we have a new identity. Even though we're still stuck in our sinful bodies, we now have living souls connected to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Christ's righteousness now covers us, and even though our flesh still exists, in God's eyes we are completely righteous.

Of course we still have sins in our lives, but the Holy Spirit is continually working on us to change us. But our identity as new creations in Christ is no longer "sinner" but "saint".

If we really want to embrace our new reality, we must think of ourselves as who we are in Christ, not as who we are in our mortal flesh. If we continue to see ourselves as "sinners", we will be more vulnerable to sins than if we see ourselves as righteous in Christ.

George used an example of a teenaged girl with bulemia who had been repeatedly in and out of hospital for her eating disorder with no permanent solution to her problem. When she began to identify herself as a child of God, a saint who was reborn in Jesus, her eating disorder began to disappear.

He also told of a homosexual man who continued to struggle with overwhelming temptation after receiving Christ. When he realized that his new identity was "saint" and a child of God, he understood that he could not simultaneously be righteous in Christ and also call himself homosexual. He began to identify himself as a saint instead of as a homosexual, and his compulsion began to disappear.

I'm not offering commentary on his case studies. But I am saying that when we accept Jesus, we have an obligation to take our new birth as literal, not metaphorical. We actually have new identities; we are now saints, not sinners. All of this new identity is a gift of pure grace; it is Christ's righteousness covering and indwelling us.

But if we persist in thinking of ourselves as sinners, we stay locked into sin. If we live in the reality of who we are in Christ, our lives will become transformed.

Colleen
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all,

Yes, Bob George's book is awesome! His tape set was also very good.

The idea that Bob presented in his tape set about how our identity was with Jesus, really made an impact on me. I really believe that many moons ago when Colleen sent me that tape set, it made a very important impression on me. MY IDENTITY HAS CHANGED! That, I believe had a lot to do with the changes in me at work.

Colleen,

As good as the tapes were, the book is better! Thank you again for the book, "Classic Christianity".

Your sis......Maryann (I like the sound of that!;-)
Lydell
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 6:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Colleen and Max, that is exactly it! Our label is no longer "sinner" our label now is "saved by grace". We still sin, we still have problem areas, but the identity is different.

I think the difference is clear in the examples you gave, Colleen. It is that when we stumble in some area and are accoustomed to seeing ourselves as being "sinner" then our immediate reaction is "oh me, this is hopeless, I will never overcome this, I'm never ever going to be free of this". That reaction can lead to staying in the gutter groveling. But when we stumble or struggle and have learned to see ourselves as "saved by grace" we are immediately driven to fall before Christ and confess that it is only because of His power, only because of what He has already done for us, only because He has already completely paid the price for the victory that we will finally be free of the problem. And it is that openness to His power that makes it possible for Him to pick us up and brushes us off and gets us moving forward again, but this time we are a few steps removed from the possibility that we will have that same problem again.

The difference is in seeing that GOD says that I am free from this thing because of Christ's sacrifice for me. That means that satan is a liar! That means that I am not hopelessly broken beyond all hope of repair in this area! That means that God IS making the changes in me that enable me to be free of the problem area.

I liked your example, Maryann, it's the Holy Spirit prompting "NO keep going, don't go in the porn shop, keep walking, that's not who you are any more". The choice is listen to who the Holy Spirit says you are or listen to who satan says you are. If the person is just setting his mind that by his own power he will not go into a porn shop ever again, eventually he's going to blow it.
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
I really like your statements of seeing our new identity in Christ!! I haven't read that book by Bob George yet, but it sounds good.

You wrote:
"Of course we still have sins in our lives, but the Holy Spirit is continually working on us to change us. But our identity as new creations in Christ is no longer "sinner" but "saint".

If we really want to embrace our new reality, we must think of ourselves as who we are in Christ, not as who we are in our mortal flesh. If we continue to see ourselves as "sinners", we will be more vulnerable to sins than if we see ourselves as righteous in Christ."

I think this is vital in our growth IN GRACE!! Starting in, and staying in, God's free grace manifested on the CROSS!! The victory HAS been achieved...we live, then as children who have been given perfection already! Growth to me is still all of grace; our mind-set must focus on this spiritual reality.

I like what Lydell said about the choice being whether to listen to what CHRIST says you are... or who Satan says you are... This is really an area of thought I have been attempting to focus on and REST in, who Christ says I am.

Colossians 3 is wonderful in this regard:

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When CHRIST, WHO IS YOUR LIFE, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory".

I love how Paul echoes some of Moses' words from Deuteronomy 30:19,20..."I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to HIS voice, and hold fast to HIM. FOR THE LORD IS YOUR LIFE..."

In debt to His grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Cindy and Lydell,

Awesome posts!

Max
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful posts, Cindy and Lydell!
Colleen
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryannóyou're welcome for the book! It is awesome, isn't it?

Colleen
sherry
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 5:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just got done reading "Sabbath in Crisis". Very interesting. Very neat. I want to share it with my Messianic friend and see what she thinks. That does make a lot more sense with the covenants and Jesus is the center of the new covenant. Being that I'm asking my Messianic friend questions, I do now understand why and how it is of what was considered the Law of Moses and tied with the Decalogue. The Law is still useful in that it teaches morals and it is a tutor to bring those not in Christ to Christ....and to show the fulfillment of all things through Christ.
Max
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sherry,

Yes, the law of Moses does teach morals. SDAs, however, say that the 24-hour Sabbath rest requirement is one of those morals they say the law teaches.

The fact that it is CEREMONIAL -- like circumcision, dietary restrictions, washings, sacrifices, etc., -- is totally lost on them.

Unfortunately Dale Ratzlaff failed to bring this point out strongly in "Sabbath in Crisis."

I think we need to do that here.

Glad you read that book. It's powerful.

Under real grace alone,

Max
Bruce H
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry

I just mailed you the other books today they will
be with you in a little while.

Buy the way I have more books on the Sabbath both
pro and con. I have found that my study of the
Sabbath has given me a real blessing.


Bruce Heinrich

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