| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 2:36 am: |     |
One more added thought (tis late),
I have NO fear of men. Infact, this seems to intimidate many men and women. I have absolutely NO fear, ZIP, ZILCH, NATA. I have been called crazy because of the lack of this fear that I guess I'm supposed to have. But you see, God prepared me in a way that may not sound kosher to most. I lived in Sacramento California and prior to that Nevada. In both areas, I have been shot, stabbed, raped several times, yelled at, beaten dozens of times, had a genocide preformed on me with a survival knife, my dog of 12 years shot, mugged several times by deadly weapons, had contracts put out on me twice, kidnapped and tortured for 3 days, was rat poisoned once by a supposed friend and on and on. The list is phenomenal. So, men, women, guns, pastors, deacons, elders and the such, don't even give me a hint of fear. I dare to encounter the worst of the worst in this world. Been there done that.
Why would I have fear of men or women? There is nothing that could be done to me that hasn't been already done. The only thing anyone could do is kill me and that is far better than the above mentioned list. Fear is not in my vocabulary.
So, it is not fear of men that I protest submission. It is not fear of women that I protest submission either. I just can't see myself going back to where I've been. I used to fear every day of my life by someone I spent many years with. Infact, so much so that it took many years to not have anxiety attacks at about 3pm everyday. So much fear did I have. The beatings, the hypothermia, being thrown out of moving vehicles, being shot at and knifed and eventually was facing life in prison for something I did NOT do (that's another story in and of itself),,,these were part of a long term relationship in the which I did submit. It didn't end with that relationship however. It went right into the next one. After these relationships, I ended all such type relationships with the exeption of my family.
With my family, it is now over....this year. No more will I bow down to anyone just because they have rank over me or years over me or simply because we are SUPPOSED to according to the world. I am who I am. I WILL FEAR MY LORD AND MY GOD AND HIM ONLY WILL I SUBMIT TO OR BOW DOWN TO. AMEN.
God Bless us all,
Denise |
Valm
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 7:33 am: | |
Denise, those are some powerful thoughts and words. ANGER is jumping off the screen.
I think the key here that Colleen is articulating is that within the context of the Holy Spirit submitting works. Submitting without this context hardly gives the results of harmony.
You are a survival of alot of intensely painful occurences. Submission to you represents something entirely different. Submission to you represents a vulnerabliltiy in which the stakes are too high to become involved in. Submission to you means a compromise in your safety and personal integrity.
Denise I know that you have a very BIG BIG HEART. I know that there are times you probably do submit to people but do so in the context of the Holy Spirit and don't even realize you are doing so. Do you let the elderly go ahead of you in line at the supermarket? Do you open doors for people who are disabled or who you just love? Would you lift the child up on your shoulders to watch the parade go by? Would you forgo your fun at the party to hug the person you sense is sad and grieving? Would you give up your lunch money to feed the homeless person in front of the restaurant? I suggest that these are all submissions in their own way.
Denise, I understand some of where you are coming from. Society has done some harse injustices to women. Look, they gave us Barbie as the standard to aspire too!!!
Denise, honor who you are with regaurds to your relationship with men. So you are not the June Cleaver type. I bet you also detest Barbie dolls. Well good for you. You at a refreshing balance to the sisterhood of women. And if and when you are ready for an intimate relationship with a man, I know that it will be a man filled with the Holy Spirit as you would not compromise on that point. If that is so, your submission will be so natural I don't think you would even notice it.
Submission is not about taking abuse. It is about loving relationships. This is not about being emotional martyrs to people who are not Spirit filled. It is not allowing men to continue functioning according to their egos.
Remember also, that Christ's submission to us was to submit to seperation from God and death on the cross. Men are instructed to have that type of submission to us. And if they are holding up their end of the instruction, how hard could it be to submit?
And God Bless you too Denise!!!! Continue giving us your spunk there is much to be learned by it.
Valerie
PS Look at the freedom we have in Christ Jesus as a context to our relationship with men when reading the text on submission |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:04 am: | |
Good morning Valerie,
I am up early and this after a night of not sleeping well. It seems that this particular subject brought about a whole mess of emotions that I didn't know were so strong.
You are indeed correct Valerie in seeing 'anger' in my posts. It was the very first emotion that was set in motion.
I have no problem whatsoever, holding doors open for people, letting others go ahead of me in a line at the local grocery store, giving up my meal to comfort somebody that may be having problems, giving of my own personal leisure time to do someones dishes, give them a bath etc. etc. In all these things, I love to give.
You are also very correct in your observation that to me submission means something dangerous. It does and this is one thing that comes naturally. I have found that even in this Christian walk, submission to other Christians became their springboard for further crossing of my boundaries. Sad but the truth. I will speak in truth and not apologize. Most Christians, thus far, take advantage of the fact that I will give them freedom to do or say most anything they wish. It is unfortunate that is was by Christians this has been done.
As to my former life, the atrocities done were not by Christians. However, for two years now I have been "expected" to eat sh**. And this simply because they were the pastor or she is the music director or they are the ones giving me a ride to Church. I'm so very tired of taking it in the rear from Christians that I am glad to not be attending Church and I am thankful to my Lord, my Savior that I'm not part of any click.
Now to those I live around or to those that are not claiming Christianity, I give them so much room to trample me. I try my best to show the love we are to show others. However, in this setting too, it is taken advantage of and when I finally put my foot down, I'm seen as a monster.
Anymore, I could care less what people think of me, whether they are in the Church or not. Whether they are family or not, friends or neighbors have seen my foot put down and are now asking questions about me to one another. I hear the rumors and it's almost as though, I have no right to have any personal time. This offends ALL peoples that I know of. People are people, Christian or not. I will not sit here and say that just because some are Christians that they better understand because this is not necessarily so. I know. I have put a 'do not disturb' sign on my door and am avoiding as many people as I can now due to the submission I did give and it was taken advantage of.
Perhaps, in the beginning (I'm learning), I should state my boundaries. However, when assisting anyone, Christian or not, this thought of setting boundaries does not enter my mind. What is in my mind is simply to help.
Anger, yes, frustration too. It's amazing how so many Christians "expect" me to submit and it is just as bad or worse from non Christians. People have their "expectations" and the very first one is "submitting" to their time, their schedule, their likes and dislikes, their dietary habits, their roles either in or out of Church.
For one day, I would love to see everyone I know "submit" to me. Now THERE'S a concept! How about that.
These days are difficult for me as I try to learn the art of balance.
In defense of myself, I will say that I submit ONLY when I want to and not when others "expect" me to. This way, I cannot be called or likened to that of a hypocrit. I am for real and what you see is what you get.
God Bless you on this beautiful day that our Lord has given to us!
your sister in Christ (humbly submitting to your insights),
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:21 am: | |
P.S.
I always detested playing with dolls. Instead I went for the army tanks, toy soldiers and the sand box out back to construct my fort for them.
God Bless,
Denise
P.P.S.S.
Also, in context of the Holy Spirit, how is it that I know who has the Holy Spirit working in them unless they show me the fruits thereof? It is not until I see their fruits that I can so judge. We are told to not cast our pearls before the swine and I stand my ground that there are many a swine in the Church. This sounds equally harsh as my posts above but nonetheless, it is also another truism. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 11:30 am: | |
Denise, I in no way suggest that you submit to abuse or to the control of another person's mind or will oveer you. I understand your viseral reaction to the word "submit"; in fact, I wish we could come up with another word for what I think the Bible means when it says "submit". Val has done a good job of explaining my thoughts on this matter.
When I mention hormonal and physcial differences as suggesting different roles, I'm not suggesting that men have better physical endurance, etc. What I mean is this: testosterone literally induces aggressiveness, "slay the dragon" types of reactions to life. The estrogen/progesterone thing causes women to tend more toward caring and concerning themselves with people's well-being and comfort. Now, these are HUGE generalizations. Men have deep capacities to care and nurture, and women have great capacities to be aggressive and go-getting.
The submitting I'm talking about is deferring to another out of love. That (sometimes difficult) chapter Ephesians 5 also says this (to both men and women): "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." (verse 21)
But again, this type of submitting is NOT giving yourself over to someone else's will. It's honoring the God-given differences between us all. It's also related to something Gary Inrig said one Sunday over a year ago: when we submit to each other's spiritual gifts (instead of trying to manage the "whole project", so to speak) our own gifts become stronger.
Men historically have abused (blasphemed, I think might be a better word) the biblical injunction to submit. God never had in mind for women to be Stepford wives, so to speak. But he did somehow hoave in mind for the combination of male and female to equal a whole. Not that this means that people need to be married. The Bible is quite clear that many are called to be single. Jesus was single. But in the body of Christ, men and women work together to make up a whole. The Holy Spirit makes us able to respect each others giftsóand masculinity and femininity are both gifts of Godóand he also restores and nurtures those gifts of his in us.
And yes, you're unfortunately right: there are swine in the Church! God is not asking us to be vulnerable to the evil in evil people. He's asking us to be whole in Him.
The best definition of forgiveness I ever heard was this: forgiveness does not mean "forgiving and forgetting". It means REMEMBERING so we can protect ourselves from future abuse. But it means giving up our right to get even. God says, "The load of revenge is much to heavy for you to carry. Only I am strong enough to take care of justice. Give me your right to get even. I'll take care of that person for you!"
Oh, and by the way, I always detested palying with dolls, too! I was never cut out to be a domestic goddess! Give me books, ideas, time to read and think--Praise God that he makes us all different!
Praise God that he restores in us our true selves and grows us in Him!
Colleen |
Valm
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 12:22 pm: | |
Denise, Keep the talk coming, this is the way to resolve whatever is in your heart.
I know how it feels to be taken advantage of. I have busted my chops plenty of times to find out that it was taken for granted and not appreciated. I one year had volunteeritis and couldn't say no to any worthwhile project during nonsleeping hours. Now I have guidelines to give my life balance and the rest I need.
I sense I haven't experienced some of the pain you have though and I can see that if I did I might come up with both fists in front of me.
Submission does not mean taking abuse. Submission does not mean putting yourself in a place that you are humiliated, uncomfortable or anxious.
The hardest skill I have had to learn is how to both submit with dignity and protect my self interests with the same.
This is a silly little story but was a victory for me. I went for my flu shot while I was in the QFC. The person giving me the shot uncapped the needle and then set the syringe on the table and the needle was leaning against a plastic bag on the table. Years ago I would have worried about embarassing the person and took the shot and then worried about the situation for days. SILLY I know. Well yesterday when this happened I just said oops that needle is dirty, lets get a new one and told the man light heartedly I am a nurse and nurses have OCD about germs. I left feeling a little tickled withmyself that I am learning to take care of myself without a strong emotional reaction and found that I could do it in a manner that did not belittle the other person.
I started reading a book over the summer that helped me alot. It is called the Heartmath Solution. It has many good points but will say that some of their points might have offense taken by conservative Christian people. The book talks about living with a balance between our head thoughts and heart thoughts. There is a chapter on "over care" a trap I have fallen into many times.
You are where you are because you do have a BIG BIG HEART. And it hurts to be taken advantage of. I am confident that in time you will discern for yourself what is appropriate submmission and what is not. Perhaps a change in word is in order; any suggestions for a word that might mean the same as submission but does not carry the emotional baggage that word has gotten through abuse? |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 12:45 pm: | |
Dear Colleen and Valerie,
Between the both of you, I am coming to a better understanding of what is meant in the Biblical passages of 'submit'. For this I am thoroughly grateful to you both.
Valerie, your insight is amazing and hits the nail on the head with me.
Colleen, I have both the 'slay the dragon' and 'nurturing people' within my spirit. To this I praise my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You are also very right on Colleen, to the fact that the context of these passages have, through the years and generations, been taken to the extreme and have become evil in and of themselves in that respect.
Personally, I watched my mother submit to my father in ways that, as a child, I knew I would never do. I am still seeing this tragedy in other family units of mine. It is a detestable evil to put a woman down, especially in light of what God says about women. Equally important are the detestable practices that come from women of the Church putting down what they consider to be lowlifes, such as me. Or consider me a moron due to my short time of reading the Bible. This will engrage me to no end and me being me, will speak up, loud and clear as to the audacity of it all. The Lord gave me brains to use and I dare to defy all social graces that have been instilled through generations of traditions of people like these. Needless to say, I am called a woman's libber or a rebel and other such names. To this I speak with our Lord about these things, as they hurt me deep within and have put a determination to halt all such talk or actions by the likes of such people. Men or women alike, in the Churches and outside the Churches have some moronic sense of how things should be. To this, I cry aloud, sing aloud, shout with might and stand my ground and plea that sanity come back to our society.
Like I have stated, I have a closer connection to men than women so this is not a matter of men vs. women so much as it is the mindset of the idiots that I loathe. People can call me names, shun me, cast me out of the family and so on, yet in all this, I am more than a conqueror through Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
I apologize not for my anger. Seems as though it needed to be stated and the whys of it as well. I am not the only person out here in the world that must see these absurd teachings brought down through the ages and unfortunately many people believe them and so by live them as well. What an awful way to bring the children up in such an environment. I know. I was that child.
Now, the Lord sought me out, He gave me gifts, He put this new mind and a right spirit within me and death cannot snatch these precious truths from me.
I thank you all for being patient and helping me to better understand. May God Bless you both richly for this as this was something that really could have done it's damage in the long run. And not to me only but to many others whose lives I'm actively involved with.
God says I'm okay..:))
Bless the Lord, oh my soul,
Denise |
Chyna
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 1:21 am: | |
dear denise,
upon thinking about relationships between men and women i have thought many thoughts. many of them emerging from my broken but healing heart.
and the reason i feel so hurt now is that i am missing what i had during the relationship: "intimacy"
mutual submission is what most will content that passage describes... it has a beautiful description that men should love their wives as christ loved the church. meaning men should be willing to give up everything for the love of their wives. to love them unselfishly, sacrificially.
i was thinking to myself that the intimacy between a man and a woman, or between really close friends is exactly what heaven is about.
God gave us the hunger for intimacy. and He shows us a glimpse of what it is like with good friends and mates. in heaven we will have pure unadulterated intimacy not just with God or our closest friends/wife or husband, but with everyone! isn't that staggering? here on earth we can't even fathom trusting everyone we know implicitly with everything we have and opening ourselves up to them to the most vulnerable parts of our lives, but in heaven it will be like that and there will be no fear of being hurt for opening up like that.
for you, I am so sorry for the things you have experienced (experienced too mild a word). but when you trust someone enough to submit to them because you know they love you more than life and want what is best for you, then relinquishing the role of control is actually affirming.
just as the one who desires to serve, submit, like Jesus did, washing His disciples feet, obeying God, will be first in the Kingdom.
it doesn't mean being a doormat, but neither, do I think that God wants you, Denise, to never submit to anyone else ever. i think that one can submit in joy. sometimes the submission is not equal, but it will not always be that way this side of heaven, but i think that not trusting people is letting what those terrible things in your past limit your joy, or your experience of intimacy in the present and future.
with love, Chyna |
Loneviking
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 5:04 am: | |
Well, Denise, with all that you've been through I guess the idea of 'submit' would rub you the wrong way!
However, as your sisters above have noted well, submission in the Christian context is done in love and instead of hurting it heals and improves.
As for the role of women in the church, each individual has to decide for themselves if the Bible is the literal, inerrant word of God. If you believe that it is, I don't see how anyone could just ignore the pointed counsel from Paul in Timothy and Titus that women are not to teach nor are they to be the elders of the church. In Galatians, Paul lays out his qualifications for his ministry and tells us that he was taught by God for two years in the Arabian desert after his conversion. So Paul is not someone who was taught by one of the other apostles---his message is one from God. Further, Paul backs his message to Timothy and Titus by affirming that the reason women are not to lead out is because of Eve. Eve, Paul says, was the first 'false teacher', and thus the role of teaching and spiritual leadership was denied to women.
I know that rubs quite a few folks the wrong way, but let me ask you---are you just as mad at God because He gave women the role of childbearing? See, this is not a question of equality, rather it is an issue of roles as decided by God when Adam and Eve fell.
Properly done, observing these roles is not hurtful to anyone and builds and stabilizes the church. I would encourage any who want to see how this works to visit the Yucaipa Church of Christ. This is a dynamic, active and growing congregation that's only about ten minutes from Redlands. The CofC don't allow women to lead out in the worship nor to serve as elders/pastors. And yet, the women there don't feel stepped on and the CofC congregations continue to grow. They follow the Biblical example and it works! |
Lydell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 7:10 am: | |
You know, the thing I find interesting is those who don't follow what you believe to be the "Biblical" model also find that it works.
There are many women who are excellent worship leaders. As there are many fine examples of excellent preaching/teaching among women, for instance Joyce Meyers, Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, Elisabeth Eliot. (Or as my husband said after listening to Joyce Meyers preach, and step all over his toes, "women aren't supposed to be preachers, yeah right!") What they teach is just as applicable to men as well as to women.
We have had two husband/wife teams come to our church to minister. Each part of the team had their own giftings to contribute. Each one preached. I'd not been so sure about women preachers until I saw them. You know, without the part that the wife contributed to each team, there would have been a major part of their ministry lacking. Their husbands realized. And the men in the church here realized it.
The fact remains that the Lord HAS poured out His spirit on ALL men(and women). He has a work to be done in building His kingdom here on earth, and He uses all of us to accomplish that goal. His gifts have been widely distributed to get the work done. You have already had some here point out the many Biblical examples of women who have been used in powerful ways in both the Old and New Testaments. That is the Biblical example.
Maybe it comes down to deciding whether only man was created in the image of God or woman also. |
Lydell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 7:12 am: | |
You know, the thing I find interesting is those who don't follow what you believe to be the "Biblical" model also find that it works.
There are many women who are excellent worship leaders. As there are many fine examples of excellent preaching/teaching among women, for instance Joyce Meyers, Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, Elisabeth Eliot. (Or as my husband said after listening to Joyce Meyers preach, and step all over his toes, "women aren't supposed to be preachers, yeah right!") What they teach is just as applicable to men as well as to women.
We have had two husband/wife teams come to our church to minister. Each part of the team had their own giftings to contribute. Each one preached. I'd not been so sure about women preachers until I saw them. You know, without the part that the wife contributed to each team, there would have been a major part of their ministry lacking. Their husbands realized. And the men in the church here realized it.
The fact remains that the Lord HAS poured out His spirit on ALL men(and women). He has a work to be done in building His kingdom here on earth, and He uses all of us to accomplish that goal. His gifts have been widely distributed to get the work done. You have already had some here point out the many Biblical examples of women who have been used in powerful ways in both the Old and New Testaments. That is the Biblical example.
Maybe it comes down to deciding whether only man was created in the image of God or woman also. By the way, I understand from our pastor, who was an Assemblies of God minister in Australia for several years, that the Australian people seemed to have no problem accepting women as pastors. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 11:35 am: | |
Good morning Loneviking,
I suppose it would all depend on your definition of 'teach'. Personally speaking, I do not believe that God intended for us women to be barefoot and pregnant only. We have knowledge from the Words of God that can contribute a great deal of good to many people, whereas, sometimes in and many times a man would not be able to get through to the one taught. Currently, in my situation, I can tell you that if a man were to try to teach some of the men in this complex, it would go unheard and infact it would be taken as an insult. But, if a woman teaches that same recipient the same thing, the recipient is more often ready to listen. So, I do believe that the Bible is the erranant Word of God but in that same Word of God there is no division of genders. So what one do you suppose you would use? Especially in light of what I have shared regarding men not listening to men. Just think about this for a day or two and talk to God about it as well.
I am seeing men hearing the Word of God that in past times, and I mean recently, they would take offense to the male teachers. Then I come along and lo and behold, although I cannot consider myself a teacher as well as most, these same men who wouldn't listen to other men, are indeed listening to me and not only so, but asking questions. They actually come to my door to ask me a question about things of Heaven and God.
It told to us by God to 'use reason', to this, should I deny what God says about using our reasoning? Or should I tell these men that have questions 'sorry, but I am but a female so I am not qualified as I am but a mere woman and oh by the way, remember Eve'? Or should I do what the Lord tells us to do, "go and teach, making disciples out of all people."?
Let us reason together Loneviking in these matters as I cannot see me turning away someone when they come to me asking questions pertaining to our Father and let's not forget that He is their Father too.
God Bless you,
Denise |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 11:42 am: | |
P.S. to Loneviking,
I have never had a child either, so have I completely done everything that is my position in God, wrong?
To top that off, I can't have children now either.
Answer me this, have I somehow sinned by NOT 'childbearing'? If not, then how can I be sinning by doing some sort of teaching? Seems to me that if the woman's place is to have children and I didn't do that part then I'm a hopeless, and usless instrument for God.
God Bless you in advance for some thoughtful answers to these questions,
Denise-the childless woman who men turn to for God's Word |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:20 pm: | |
Chyna and everyone else,
I have no problem submitting to people nor trusting people. I do have a problem with how this is used as a bat upside some woman's head to keep her 'in her place'. When I am doing service for others, in all reality I'm submitting. Whether it is women or men is not a problem with me. I wash others feet and do pedicures, manicures, showers, rubdowns, cleaning of walls, floors etc. etc.. This to me is not submitting to people as much as it is submitting to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When doing these things, I am doing them for our Lord as I feel this not only benefits others but more importantly, it is serving my Lord.
When doing such things, around here people know that I read the Bible daily and study daily, so they take opportunity of my being there and begin to ask questions about this God that I serve. Not a thought comes to my mind of 'oh dear, I can't answer these questions, as I am a woman (of all things!). Rather, I smile inside my heart that they want to know and are hungering for the Word of God. If this means that I'm going to hell because I dare to teach them what I know, then so be it. I am not here to please the men, women or lurkers on this site nor in the Churches.
God sought me out two years ago and from that time on, I have been captured by this Great God of ours. I will NOT deny the children that are hungry just because I am female. Because I do read the Bible, I also see many woman in the Bible that not only taught but prophesied and danced and sang. I see a harlot in the book of faith. If Rahab is in the hall of faith, book of Hebrews, then I suppose that what I do in answering questions, when I know the answers, to hungry people, cannot nor will not be used against me by God Almighty. He put me here and He is teaching me and He is my Shelter. I have not to defend myself against mere human beings.
I trust people moreso than most would think, considering my background. My background should be in a book as it is a GREAT testimony to the power of our Almighty Creator! Our Lord God has also healed me for the most part of ALL wounds inside. But to be 'yes sir this and yes sir that' to any man, just because he is a he is lowering myself to a status that I'm sure most men would be pleased with. However I am not here to appease the ego or protect the ego of any man, woman or person. This is their own job, not mine. No place in the Bible do I see that my job is to protect fragile egos.
So, the end of all of this is this: I will teach those who ask, I will ask what I don't know and I will praise my Almighty God and Savior for what He has done through my life for the rest of my life. Should it end today, my life, I have no regrets. Not even the bad things are all bad, as good came out of it all. God is in Control. For this my soul is comforted and I KNOW without a doubt, that I will be with our God for eternity.
Contend for the faith---men, women and children...ALL should contend for the faith. Jesus did not die for the Church body to quibble about who should be teacher, preacher, tithe collector et al.
Jesus died and is risen for us (ALL BELIEVERS) to have eternal life and we are now redeemed by HIS BLOOD. To HIS Glory...AMEN and AMEN.
Denise, the childless teacher of sorts, who is a child of God. |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:48 pm: | |
You just keep on teaching Denise. That is your God given gift.
We are all inclined to our opinions and there are a variety of them out there.
Do not allow ones opinion or interpretation of scriptures burn your bottom so much. It is just their opinion. Yours is as valid as theirs.
I am on such a grace and new covenant theme these days I don't want to even regroup to study out all the texts.
Could it be possible that living in year 2000, we can only speculate as to what Paul was talking about when he told the woman to be quiet in church? If we can only speculate then why use it as a basis to organize our congregation.
I will say it again, if I were to have someone teach me anything, it would be another woman. Not that I disrespect men, they just don't speak my language when it comes to teaching somethin.
So again, Go for it Girl!!! We need your voice and influence for God's glory. |
Valm
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:52 pm: | |
PS Denise, I have had great blessings in bearing children, as well as sorrow. It is a comission from God, but not necessarily for all people.
Our feminine make up blesses some of us with kids, but it also brings balance and perspective to the human condition and conversation.
I do know that if you had children you would not be able to have the blessing of teaching and reaching out to people the way you do. All things do work for good in them who love God. |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 1:42 pm: | |
Denise, you have taught me, and I thank you.
--Max of the Cross |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 9:18 pm: | |
Denise, I really believe that the only will to which you should submit is God's will. You're absolutely right that you are submitting to the Lord Jesus when you serve those around you.
I also believe that God puts the work he wants us to do in front of us. As Lydell has pointed out, the Holy Spirit is poured out on men and women alike, and God in his sovereignty assigns each of us our work. I also believe that Paul does not exclude women from speaking for God in public. While I do believe that men and women have different roles, I also believe that as humans we cannot define those roles and set them in cement, or we limit the Holy Spirit. He is like a wind that blows wherever it will. It is not our job to take on our jobs; it is God's to give them to us!
By the way, I have never had children either. My children are stepchildren, but they are the children of my heart. God absolutely redeems every situation in our lives when we SUBMIT them to HIM! Even our worst mistakes and wounds can become points of grace and glory for God when he redeems them!
In Jesus,
Colleen |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 1:02 pm: | |
See article "Women taking active role to Study Orthodox Judaism"
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/21/national/21ORTH.html |
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