| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Newsflash! SDA Exclusive! GOD-ON-EARTH SMASHES SABBATH LAW! Immediate attention: Seventh-day Adventists around the world! Dateline 28-30AD, Judea. Accounts from official correspondents Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have now confirmed early rumors that God-on-Earth from Galilee has utterly smashed the 1500-year-old Jewish law proscribing work on the Sabbath. If judicial, ecclesiastical, prophetic and royal annals are correct, it is HIS OWN STATEMENT of the law ñ written with HIS OWN FINGER on two tablets of stone ñ that he himself has now smashed to bits. Reports are that God-on-Earth is to be arrested and indicted by temple and Sanhedrin authorities on the following counts: Indictment-and-Arrest Count #1. Permitting his disciples to REAP grain on the Sabbath and defending their conduct to the Sabbath police. Luke 6:1-5. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Agricultural. Indictment-and-Arrest Count #2. Permitting his disciples to THRESH grain on the Sabbath and defending their conduct to the religious police. Luke 6:1-5. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Light industrial (food processing). Indictment-and-Arrest Count #3. Allowing Simon Peterís mother-in-law to ìWAIT ONî him on the Sabbath. Matthew 8:14. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Domestic (waiting tables and chairs). Indictment-and-Arrest Count #4. Commanding a man allegedly invalid 38 years to LIFT his bed on the Sabbath. John 5:1-30. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Light industrial (lifting and loading). Indictment-and-Arrest Count #5. Commanding a man allegedly invalid 38 years to CARRY his bed on the Sabbath. John 5:1-30. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Light industrial (transportation). Indictment-and-Arrest Count #6. MIXING spittle and clay to form a poultice to place on the eyes of a man allegedly born blind on the Sabbath. John 9:1-41. Type of Sabbath-day work prohibited: Light industrial (pharmaceutical). Jewish government officials refuse to return inquiries as to plans for prosecution and trial. But unsubstantiated bulletins have arrived reporting are that they are holding these charges in abeyance while waiting to apprehend God-on-Earth without bail for a much more serious offense, one requiring the death penalty. What the nature of this allegedly much more heinous crime is and any further news will be broadcast as soon as it becomes available. Stay tuned, Jude | ||
| George |
Jude, In your above post you stated the "sabbath" law was 1500 years old. If this is the case, it must have been at this time that God gave the command to keep it. If as many believe, the earth is 6000 years old, why did God put off giving that command for 2500 years if it is to be what our salvation is "based" on? Something doesn't add up there. To rule out alot of side isues the answers should begin with; God put it off for 2500 years because-------. George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi George, "God put it [the Fourth Commandment] off for 2500 years because------- he decided it was time to give his chosen people a command he knew they couldn't keep. Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
George That is right Jude, God did not want to give a curse to everybody so He selected a group of people to show us what would happen. The Jews showed us what a sinfull person does with the Law, He will kill his his own Savior. Now Adventist are trying to prove that Gentiles can do it as well as the Jews. BH | ||
| George |
Jude and Bruce, I don't quite get this line of thought. George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi George, The Sabbath was the second sign of the old covenant. Circumcision was the first. But since the old covenant has been fulfilled right down to the last "job and tittle," we do not have to keep the signs. Instead we keep the sign of the new covenant, which is the Lord's supper (bread=flesh and wine=blood). Does this help? Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
George I look at it this way. God is doing this whole thing to make a point, and that is that we need him. I am sure one of Satans claims will be, well we would not need you if we only had all the rules and Laws so we could live without God. So God gave us those Law's at mount Siani and let Isreal try to keep them on there own knowing that the Law causes a sinfull person to sin more (Rom 7:8,9,13; 1Cor 15:56, Gal 4:24). Now God has blinded Isreal as as example to us (Rom 9:30-33 10:1-3 Rom 11:25) to show us That it is God's Spirit That indwells us, that is our guide and not the Law. for the bible is Spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:7-16) and it is not discernment by Law. Bruce H | ||
| Plain Patti |
Greetings, I will jump in right in the middle with both of my big feet (which will probably end up in my mouth). Having read through these posts superficially, let me share something that has been troubling me. And that is Romans 14. I am sure you are familiar with it: Verse 1: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. We exes use this passage to defend our right to choose not to observe the seventh-day sabbath. And this is quite accurate; it is stated very definitely. My problem: The thrust of this text is NOT about observing days nor about defending one's lack of observance of days; it is about not finding ourselves "above" our neighbors because we are "enlightened" and free from the sabbath burden; it is about allowing for diversity on "disputable matters," and, above all, it is about putting love for your neighbor above the importance of any "disputable" doctrine. On another forum, a former SDA is berating all who observe the sabbath, even our former SDA brethren. Folks, if we expect the SDAs to allow us to keep a day, or not keep any day, holy, then we must follow the direction of Paul and not judge anyone on the basis of sabbath-keeping or non-sabbath-keeping. Remember Colossians 2:16? Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. If we wish to claim the right not to be judged on the basis of sabbath or non-sabbath keeping, then we must extend to our sabbatarian Christians the same courtesy. (I am not saying that this is what you are saying here; I was pretty taken aback the first time I heard someone who had left SDAism sitting in judgment on sabbatarians for "keeping" the sabbath.) Because the bottom line is this: That sabbath observance is no longer required of Christians is not the Gospel. In fact there are lots of things the Gospel is NOT: The Gospel is not the sabbath. The Gospel is not that sabbath-keeping is not required of Gentile believers. The Gospel is not that the dead know not anything. The Gospel is not that the soul returns to God at death. The Gospel is not that one should abstain from eating unclean foods. The Gospel is not that Christ cleansed all foods. The Gospel is not that hell consists of sinners and sin being totally consumed. The Gospel is not that hell is eternally burning. The Gospel is not that Ellen White was inspired by God. The Gospel is not that Ellen White was not inspired by God. The Gospel is not that 1844 was the beginning of the end of time. The Gospel is not that 1844 was not the beginning of the end of time. The Gospel is not that the believer can reject salvation in Christ. The Gospel is not that the elect cannot resist the grace of God. The Gospel is not that God calls all to salvation, allowing each to choose. The Gospel is not that God has chosen some, and not others, to be saved. The Gospel is not that the believer can honor God by his good works. The Gospel is not that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Although each of the above is dependent upon one's view of the Gospel, I think it is extremely important that we take a moment to look at the kernel of Truth, the reason for our existence as Christians. What the Gospel IS: The Gospel is the salvation secured for us by the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faith comes of hearing. How are people to believe if we do not tell them, very plainly, the kernel of Truth vital to belief? And we, better than anyone, know that SDAs do not understand this very simple truth: That Christ justifies sinners. We can do no better than Paul himself who "determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Having said that, yes, I do think it is OK and appropriate for us to discuss these things in our fellowship. I am concerned, however, when someone who claims (s)he has the Gospel of our Lord focuses on things that are "disputable," condemning others for differences of opinions on matters that are not Gospel, when (s)he could be sharing the news of the marvelous grace of our Lord. Hope I didn't come across as too "preachy." As I said, these thoughts originated in another forum. But I think it is also important that we FAs realize that we are recruiting and proselytizing for the kingdom of heaven. We are not, should not be, merely on the defensive from SDA attacks nor antagonistic to every thing SDA. We should be proclaiming Jesus Christ and Him crucified at every possible opening. Who knows who is listening and upon whose heart the HOly Spirit is working right at this very moment. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Very thoughtful post. Post's like that are needed occasionally, I think, simply to make all of us stop and consider our focus. Then continue on in a manner that is consistant with Biblical principles. I truly believe that we have been consistant with Biblical principles lately. I truly believe we've communicated that it is not all those things, of themselves, we are standing against, but that those things are NOT the test of heaven or hell. Anyway, great post. Stopping and "checking" is a VERY good idea. Keep up the great post's. Maryann | ||
| jtree |
Again when it was smashed, there are those who get Holy super glue and try to peace it back together again, the wall of hostility which was circumcision and the Sabbath, is being errected all over the place again and again. I just found two web sites (simular to this one). I am talking with some of our FRIENDS there, seems the Spirit of crazy glue is at work at this site. I will let you have the link to this one, Hey FORMERS our friends are there. http://hostedscripts.com/boards/spwarrior/ check it out and tell me what you think! Clue... A fellow named "David Conklin" seems he has all the "truth" and "answers" Here is his statement...and a follow up.. "Over on the Spiritualwarrior board he took off all the posts where I showed that he was in error! If you look at his posts it appears as if no one has responded to him and yet I did so and they were on there for several days and I had also noticed that several others had also--although I wasn't allowed to get to their posts to see what they had said." Looks like he is a former adventist, and a FRIEND is having his format "edited" for content by this fellows who wrote the quote above... | ||
| jtree |
Again when it was smashed, there are those who get Holy super glue and try to peace it back together again, the wall of hostility which was circumcision and the Sabbath, is being errected all over the place again and again. I just found two web sites (simular to this one). I am talking with some of our FRIENDS there, seems the Spirit of crazy glue is at work at this site. I will let you have the link to this one, Hey FORMERS our friends are there. http://hostedscripts.com/boards/spwarrior/ check it out and tell me what you think! Clue... A fellow named "David Conklin" seems he has all the "truth" and "answers" Here is his statement...and a follow up.. "Over on the Spiritualwarrior board he took off all the posts where I showed that he was in error! If you look at his posts it appears as if no one has responded to him and yet I did so and they were on there for several days and I had also noticed that several others had also--although I wasn't allowed to get to their posts to see what they had said." Looks like he is a former adventist, and a FRIEND is having his format "edited" for content by this fellows who wrote the quote above... Here is the link http://hostedscripts.com/boards/spwarrior/ | ||
| George |
Patti, Bruce, Jude, The main thing I get from these post's is that God is a mean puppet master that says DANCE, all the while holding the string for the feet up so we can't. What a mean person~!! The idea that He put laws in our way that He new we could not and would not be able to keep, puts this whole idea of "religion" on the DARK SIDE, the side where we have to look out for God and what He might do next!!! The whole idea I now have of salvation and God etc. leaves spirituality on the light side in my mind. Lets use light and dark as the deviding line between good and bad. One of the things that gives combat veterans so much trouble is never knowing where the enemy is coming from, never knowing when you are on his side of the line. You must always be on guard you can never relax, you can never know when you are safe, you are always looking for the enemy to jump out from everywhere, you are never SAFE. When this happens you never trust anyone as they may be the bad guy, everyone and everything is to be evaluated for its potential to hurt you. After a while they go on R.@ R. this a safe place where you can let your guard down where you don't have to check everything for its potential to hurt you. YOU ARE SAFE AT LAST. For the first time in your battle you are safe and happy. Then you find out the commanding general has planted bombs around in places you wont know and cant find out till too late, just for the fun of it. What do you think will happen. That's right yu will go back to always being on guard never having rest and one day you will burn out give up and be KILLED. The above describes my religious experience up to a few months ago. Then I finaly saw that God is not that mean general just putting bombs in my way for the fun of it. Now you are telling me that he has, by using the sabbath as a stumbling block or "bomb". Now, I will get no rest wondering what other bombs are out there just wating for me to step on. For 45 of my 52 years I have been looking for bombs, I am VERY tired and am not going to do that any more. If there is one out there, there must be others and that puts me into the dark side again, away from happy carefree light side. This being so, I am just going to walk and if I hit one, OH WELL. George | ||
| Plain Patti |
The above describes my religious experience up to a few months ago. Then I finaly saw that God is not that mean general just putting bombs in my way for the fun of it. Now you are telling me that he has, by using the sabbath as a stumbling block or "bomb". Now, I will get no rest wondering what other bombs are out there just wating for me to step on. George, I am not sure where you got that from my post. If that is what you think I was saying, I apologize. My point is that the thrust of our duty in the Gospel is to love and accept others just as Christ has accepted us just as we are. It is all to easy for us who have left the SDA church to feel "superior" to those we left behind, but we are no different. Only our perspective has changed. Because we now have the assurance that our salvation has been gained for us in Jesus Christ. There are no "bombs" out there, George. Only the grace of God. There are only two kinds of people in the world: those who have seen the greatness of grace and mercy in Jesus Christ, and those who live without that knowledge. Let me ask you this: Who do you think that the knowledge of God's grace benefits? Do you think it benefits GOD in any way? Do you think His great plan of salvation, His will is thwarted in any way by whether or not we perceive it? Of course not. We need to see God's grace for our own sakes; so that we can relax and live as happy little microbes in the vast ocean of God's domain. That is why we can never feel that we are superior in any way to others; but we should feel sorry for them because they are still trying to be something besides microbes; they are trying to make themselves into some kind of creature that can soar above the ocean. But that is not going to happen until we see Christ face to face; then "we know that when we shall see him, we will be like Him." But not until that time. In the meantime we TRUST that God will save us as he has promised. Many times in this life we will have to live by faith in His promise only, even though we may not be able to touch it or feel it or "see" it. That is what FAITH is all about: Continuing to believe in something that our human senses cannot give us any information on. Jesus Christ is sufficient and able to save us to the uttermost! And that is ALL that truly matters. Grace and peace, Patti PS Following is a post that I sent in to another forum today, concerning a woman who was discouraged about the lack of warmth in the SDA church. I think it is appropriate here. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Dear "Dolores," * You seem like a very compassionate person. You want to believe in the doctrine of the SDA church, yet you are wounded and repelled by the coldness and harshness of your congregation. I would like to suggest to you, though, that it is the doctrines of the church that make many SDA communities (The one I was raised in was just as judgmental and hateful.) harsh. There are many factors, but I will home in on the one that is the foundation of all of one's beliefs: Salvation. SDAs do not believe that they are saved. Allow me to qualify this. They believe that they will someday be saved, that someday they will "be ready for Jesus to come," but they have no assurance in it right here and now. Why? Because they are looking to themselves for "proof" of their salvation. I left the SDA church 20 years ago. The reason I left was not the harshness nor the legalism. I grew up with that stuff; my grandma was practically Ellen White reincarnated! I got beat over the head figuratively all the time with the "little red books." And that is what this religion promotes. In the first place, they see themselves as being "God's true remnant." Watch out for those who make this claim; inevitably it sets them on a plateau above the rest of "Christianity." Why, SDAs even refer to their fellow Protestant Christian believers as the "great whore"! Still, I digress, because this is not the root of the problem. The reason I left the SDA church is that I found the Gospel--or rather, the Gospel found me. Lord knows, I wasn't "looking" for it; I was happy as a clam in the SDA church, or at least thought I was. But when it came to my attention that Jesus Christ is not just our substitute in death, but that He was our Substitute in His life also, then the Bible became a new book for me. We do not have to "do it all"! Christ did everything for us! He kept the law that we cannot even begin to keep. (Those who say they can and do keep the law do one of three things: 1. They miniaturize the law; they make the law "small enough" that they can keep it. This is why SDAs pick and choose from Leviticus which laws they will follow and which ones they will ignore, all the time ignoring the text in James that says if we have broken the smallest of one of the laws, we have broken them all. 2. They focus on the "Big Ten"--the ten commandments are relatively easy to keep--It doesn't take much effort on my part to keep from killing someone or to keep from robbing them--but they ignore the "commandments" of Jesus which say that whoever hates someone is just as guilty under the law as if he actually killed him; that merely lusting in the heart makes one just as guilty as committing the actual act of adultery. Not even to mention "loving one's neighbor as oneself." No one has been able to master that one! We are all self-centered! 3. They make excuses for their imperfections, the most popular one being that they are keeping the "spirit of the law" and not the "letter"--this by the way is yet another misuse of Scripture.) I must agree with Paul that I am a wicked person, saved only by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. You see, Dolores, when I was an SDA I rarely heard the name of Jesus mentioned in Sabbath School class or in conversations between members. And when I did hear it it was mainly about "being ready" when Jesus should come again. There was precious little time and discussion spent on the doing and dying of our Lord, Paul calls it "Jesus Christ and Him crucified." And that, Delores, is our only hope--the forgiveness of our sin because of His death, and His robe of perfect righteousness which covers our lives completely. When we believe in the completeness of the work of Jesus Christ in our behalf--which, btw, the SDAs do not--we do not have to live as insecure, dysfunctional Christians, looking for some work that is going to take place sometime in the future in which we will be made acceptable to God. We can know with assurance that we are acceptable to God this moment in Jesus Christ. "He was made to be sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." Read the book of John. How many times does John say, "Whoever believes has eternal life"? Repeatedly! And yet, SDAs (and other groups) deny this and say, "Whoever believes and works," or the latest one is "Whoever has faith that works in love." It doesn't matter what they call it, they are adding to the work that Christ has done in our behalf. They are trying to add our imperfect, filthy rags righteousness to the spotless robe of the righteousness of Christ which completely covers all who believe in Christ and His salvific work for mankind! And all that does, is put the focus back on the believer, who will constantly wonder if his/her works (fruit) are good enough to be acceptable to God. I left the SDA church because every time I tried to talk about salvation in Jesus Christ alone, someone would get bored and ask to change the subject. "We have talked enough about Jesus, the milk of the Gospel; let's go on to the meat of the Gospel," and then they would change the subject to the Sunday law, or the close of probation, or other such things that cannot even be proved from the Scripture. The reason that many SDAs are so harsh is that: 1. They do not believe that they are saved themselves, 2. They look to themselves for evidence of their salvation, 3. If they are honest, they will acknowledge that they are far short of the glory of God, 4. This is very frustrating for them, 5. They seek encouragement for their own sinful condition by criticizing others for any slip-ups they may have. They can think to themselves, "Well, at least I am not as bad as Patti. After all, I do keep the sabbath." A typical insecurity complex that seeks to elevate one's self-image by looking down on others, 6. People cannot give what they do not have. If they are not convinced of the great love of God, if they are not sure that God has kept His promise to each of them and has given them full pardon and acceptance in Jesus Christ, then they cannot share this love with others. We can see the same among children. Children who do not receive love as a child have a hard time giving it when they get ot be parents. So the insecurity of God's great love for them keeps them from being able to openly accept their neighbors. 7. When we believe that we are accepted before God on the basis of what Jesus Christ did alone, then, and only then, can we truly accept others as equals before God. I am saved, not because of what I have done or will do--not a speck of my own doing contributes positively to my salvation; but by the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. Therefore, if I am saved only by undeserved mercy, then I must look on my fellow man in the same light--a person who is totally forgiven and accepted in Jesus Christ. Having said this, let me assure you that this is not a blanket statement about all SDAs, but there is a definite tendency toward coldness and harshness among many congregations. My brother has experienced this in several of his churches. (He is a minister.) My step-mother has experienced this in her church; my grandmother drove 30 miles each way to attend another church when there was one within 5 miles of where she lived. It is a problem indigenous to SDA church congregations. And not to SDAs only, but to any group that claims exclusivism. And speaking of remnant, just one more word before I close. There is only one faithful remnant. And that is Jesus Christ. Of all humanity that has ever lived, the faithful remnant boils down to a single Person, a single sanctified and holy Life. Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. Jesus Christ is the only One worthy of receiving all the promises made to Abraham. Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." The Old Covenant said, If you will keep my commands, then you will be my people." There is only a single Person who fulfilled the Old Covenant, and when we believe in Him, we are assured that all of the promises of God to Abraham, to Israel, to all of the patriarchs, prophets, disciples and apostles, are ours. Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. God bless you, Dolores. I am glad you are with us. You are carrying a heavy load, and you need Someone to lighten your burden. May the peace of His forgiveness and the knowledge of His great love be with you this day, and every day. *Not her real name. | ||
| George |
Patti, I guess I should have been more clear as to which post gave me that idea. It was Judes post of May 30 that most clearly stated it. Perhaps I shouldn't have included you in the other post. Jude I still don't think yu have answered my other question, Did you or did you not find something in thise posts to triger your warning? This is a question that requires only a yes or no answer. George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
George, Thanks for thinking of me. I guess I don't know how to answer your qustion. May I have a rain check? Jude | ||
| jtree |
At this point, I am going to ask for some HELP!!!!! BIG TIME. anyone here who has a concern for the Gospel, may you join me at http://.carm.org/ Christian Apologetic & Research Ministry. Select the group in "OTHER" Seventh Day Adventist. Get registered, and come I'm being cornered by 3 Sabbath Champions who "RUN THE" Forum. I can use alot of help. They have twisted Scripture, what I have said, and the ATTACK everything, that we believe, what we don't believe. Any and ALL HELP IS NEEDED. Thank you in advance. | ||
| Bruce H |
George The Bible gives us an example of sombody like you that is like a ship that rocks and rolls and is tossed buy the sea. George If you try to rely on people like FAF or pastors or anybody else you will always be on a roller coster ride, I have seen you do this a couple of times and boy do you have real high's HIGH HIGH"S and real lows LOW LOW's. Jesus is the anchor grabe for it, for with Him even though there may be bombs around, none of them will hurt you. The Bible is your only true anchor (Remember the word became flesh), Go to it and trust God to show you the Truth for if you do believe then you do believe that you have the Holy Spirit and then believe that he will guide you into TRUTH. George I have been praying for you and this is my heart felt prayer go to the Word. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Question |
http://www.carm.org/ Address correction. It is interesting that this group does not list Adventism as a cult but does list Mormon and C.S. and J. W. What gives? Why give Adventists slack while not doing so with lessor cults? Maybe "Dr. Patti" can set them straight? | ||
| jtree |
yes, thank you Question, I was in a bit of a hurry, to get to work! Thank you for correcting this address. Well it's in a list with "others". Maybe they are researching to see if they move up the list. |
