| Author | Message | ||
| George |
Patti, Sometimes when you read something it colors evrything that comes after and that is the case when I included you in my post yesterday. My question was---If the sabbath was to be so important why did God put off telling us to remember it for 2500 years. The posts just before yours said to me that God did it just to trip us up. If that is REALLY the case WE ARE IN TROUBLE, as this is not the action on a God of love. For so many years there was so much confusion around religion in my mind that it I felt like I was in darkness all the time. In the last few months I have changed my view of religion (thanks to you and others)so much that I feel like I am in light now, there is very little confusion left. To have to think that God put the sabbath in the way just as a stumbling block would throw me back into the darkness of confusion again. I don't want to go there anymore, ever, for this reason I can not believe He did this. If God is a God of love and if He knows the end from the beginning He would not have done that even if I was the only one to think this way in the history of the world. Otherwise it would be proof that He is not a God of love, and religion is just a BIG joke. After rereading your post it is clear you said nothing like this at all. You do however have the most wonderful and clear way of bringing things out that I have never heard before as you did in your post about accepting people that don't believe the same as we do. Thanks for your insight----George | ||
| George |
Bruce, THanks for your responce, I am out of time now and will talk to you on Monday. George | ||
| Bruce H |
George ----The above describes my religious experience up to a few months ago. Then I finaly saw that God is not that mean general just putting bombs in my way for the fun of it. Now you are telling me that he has, by using the sabbath as a stumbling block or "bomb". ---- Rom 9:30-33 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Now notice George that the stubling stone or bomb is for those who do not BELIEVE. If you believe like you said you did why are you doubting, pray for faith and understand that if you are in christ then you have died to the Law or stumbling block or Bomb. Now Christ has given you his life trust in him, he says He will never leave you do you believe. -----Now, I will get no rest wondering what other bombs are out there just wating for me to step on.---- Heb 4:1-3 1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, `They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. So George "WE who have BELIEVED do enter that rest". You said that you believed so why are you RESTLESS. For 45 of my 52 years I have been looking for bombs, I am VERY tired and am not going to do that any more. If there is one out there, there must be others and that puts me into the dark side again, away from happy carefree light side. This being so, I am just going to walk and if I hit one, OH WELL. AMEN!! Remember that you are not walking ALONE. Stop trying to do it yourself rely on Jesus he will show you the bombs and if you do hit one your New Spirit in Christ WILL pull you through, remember God still gives you a free will and you will make wrong dicisions but you will learn from these experiences. Bruce Heinrich BH BH | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hi, Josh. I tried on the CARM forum, but you know, I have had so much of the nastiness and hatefulness that I feel like I need a break from it. I am truly sick of the hostility. So I probably will not be posting there much anymore. We will see. You are quite tenacious, and for that I applaud you, but I wonder sometimes if we do any good at all. I mean, if faith only comes at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then we obviously cannot do His work for Him. Are we fooling ourselves, feeding our own egos, to think that we can change anyone's mind? Perhaps it is just me tonight after my first real run-in with David. He is something else. But I don't enjoy that kind of discourse at all, and I have it coming at me on 3 different forums. (not this one!) And I don't think anything good comes of it. Anyway, we shall see. Tomorrow is another day, after all. And I am very tired today. God bless you in your efforts. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| joshua |
"Dr" Patti, In all the vastness of our world Wide Web, in all of the diversity of other web site beliefs, there are only two essential types of belief, TRUTH and NO TRUTH. There seem to be many differences between the worldís religions, but they are all essentially the same--they all center around human works. These web sites are not excluded. True "FAFERS" Christianity, however, ìthe faith once delivered to the "FAFERS",î is totally distinct from the "worldís" websites in this area as in so many others. The thing that makes THE "FAFERS" web site far different from many other web sites, is the concept of Grace. | ||
| Jtree |
Patti and anyone, Judges comes to mind. "Arise, and go into their camp for I have given it into your hands" Judges 7:9 | ||
| jtree |
What Sabbatarians do is discard the punishments of the law which is fastened to it and put it under grace. But then the practice of the law is kept with no penalties. Law without consequences is just good advice. God gave them with penalties, man doesn't like the punishments so he finds a way around them so they change the law of God. If the law is still in effect then so are the penalties for breaking the law. If one separates the penalties then the commands have no authority and justice is not carried out. Sabbatarians emphasize a day instead of Pentecost which is the giving of the Spirit which released the Jews from the law and gave them a new base of operation. To keep a law is a physical /spiritual work. Why did God send the Holy Spirit on Sunday? According to Sabbatarians it should have been Saturday to accomplish their day of rest. The answer is simple, it was new beginnings for the church just as it was 1,500 years before as new beginnings for Israel. Israel was given the Sabbath, the Church was given the Spirit. He leads us and empowers us to obey well beyond what the law can ever dictate. | ||
| George |
To all , The point I was trying to make when I wondered why God didn't tell us right away to remember the sabbath is; If God rested on the seventh day and made it holy, and if it is a "sin" not to remember it and not keep it holy, Why didn't He tell every one about it sooner?? If it is so important that a "prophet" saw visions about it and a whole church was based on it, why not say something when He blessed it? When it says "remember" the sabbath, maybe it does not mean to remember back to when it was made but to remember---this command that I give you "now". This would give some reason for the long delay. But then what was His reason for wanting them to remember it then---2500 after the fact. Do you see where I am going with this? Help me out here, tell me what you think. George | ||
| George |
Jude Your rain check has expired, your answer is due. George | ||
| Plain Patti |
If God rested on the seventh day and made it holy, and if it is a "sin" not to remember it and not keep it holy, Why didn't He tell every one about it sooner?? If it is so important that a "prophet" saw visions about it and a whole church was based on it, why not say something when He blessed it? I may be re-treading ground already covered, here, so forgive me if I am redundant. Re-read the Genesis passage, George. If you are like me, you haven't read it for awhile and you are seeing it through Ellen-colored glasses still. Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. Apparently, God finished His work on the sixth day. He rested (He ceased His creative work) on the seventh. He blessed THAT day in which He was finished because He had finished His work and found it to be "very good." It never says: 1. That God went back to work on the next day, or 2. That God rested once a week perpetually, or 3. That God commanded Adam and Eve to rest (What would they "rest" from? They were inhabitants of Paradise with direct communion with God EVERY DAY.) When it says "remember" the sabbath, maybe it does not mean to remember back to when it was made but to remember---this command that I give you "now". This would give some reason for the long delay. But then what was His reason for wanting them to remember it then---2500 after the fact. Actually, when the ten commandments were given the children of Israel were not instructed to look back to creation, but to God's deliverance of them from Egypt. Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Repeatedly in the books of Moses, God reminds the children of Israel of His great saving act for them; something in recent history, something they could relate to. As far as the sabbath commandment is concerned, the Israelites were not commanded to observe it merely to commemorate creation, but to set up a weekly cycle for their daily living, using creation week as a basis. One has to take into consideration that God was dealing with an unruly, restless bunch of illiterate slaves that had never made any decisions for themselves. So much of the OT is God setting up rules of government for their very survival in the setting of the wilderness, without roots or traditions or customs of their own. Why did God choose this ragtag band of slaves? Same reason He chooses you and me: it is His will, and it is beyond our knowing. | ||
| George |
Patti, I think you have misunderstood the thrust of my post. It is actualy an argument for the 4th commandment meaning something other than what the SDA's say it does. I don't think that He wanted anyone to look back to creation for the meaning of the sabbath or He would have blessed the 7th day and made it sabbath. The whole point is that it must have had meaning for the TIME in which it was given. If it didn't He would have said "Remember the sabbath day I made at creation and keep it holy". The idea you stated, that the command was given to give order to their lives makes sense. But why call it the sabbath and why keep it holy? And what does the 7th day have to do with anything, was it the 7th day at the time of creation or the day of the 7th plague? If I am not mistaken that was when the first born died. And who was God's first born? Maybe this was just another thing that was pointing forward to the death of Christ. What do you think----George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
George, and still I find myself unable to answer your question. What now? -Jude | ||
| George |
Jude, Perhaps you should not give such warnings unless you first say that they are ment as a general warning and not aimed at anything anyone said. If they are then you should say so. It is only ethical and a Christian thing to do, as we don't want people to fear saying what they want for no reason. And remember there is nothing wrong with admiting errors when we make them. George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thank you, George, And God bless, Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
GeorgeóWhen God gave Isareal the 4th commandment, I think he was saying to them in essence: The pagans you live among work hard to appease their gods. They work to gain favor, to enjoy plentiful harvests, and to earn offspring. You, God says to Isreal, will be far more prosperous than any of the nations around you. You will be blessed. And you will sit in your tents one day every week and NOT WORKónot even if it's harvest or lambing season. You will take one day off each week, and you will be blessed far beyond your imaginings or your neighbor's understanding. And neither you nor they will ever be able to say you are blessed because you worked hard. Your blessings will be entirely a gift from me. You will observe a day of rest to remember Me, the ONE who loves you, blesses you, gives you your sustenance, fights your battles, and makes you great. This day, God says in essence, is a symbol of the the freedom that I promise will come to you through the Messiah. You will keep it in anticipation of the permanent freedom that I promise you. Nothing I give you is because of anything you do, and you have this day to remind you that I alone am the source of success and blessing. And now, we have our true Sabbath Rest in the person of the Living Christ! The prophecies came true; the Sabbath is now our entire lives, not just a representative day! Praising God for His Rest, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, It's really great to see so many post's that put the author's understanding in such a readable fashion. Sometimes that is what is needed to get a concept across. That was a totally new concept to me. All you guyz'z post's together make a wonderful collage (sp?). Maryann | ||
| sherry |
On the thought of Sabbath and His rest, I found this quote. What do you think? "Jesus became the Sabbath 'rest' for Christians so now we don't need to keep the Sabbath day." That's right, God did not change the Sabbath. Neither did Jesus Christ. Neither did the Apostles. Neither did the Bible Prophets. Neither did any church council in the Bible. Never in all the Bible is there a single text telling us that the Sabbath has been abolished and another day of worship has taken it's place. Yes, Jesus is our spiritual "rest." By faith, we enter into His spiritual rest by resting from our sinful works ó and that includes breaking God's Sabbath (Hebrews 4:9-11)! God does not ask us to do good works to obtain His grace, He asks us to do good works because we have received His grace (Ephesians 18-10). Our salvation is totally and completely from Christ. It is Jesus who redeems us and sanctifies us, In this, He is our spiritual "Sabbath rest." That is one reason why it is important to enjoy the literal weekly Sabbath day rest God commandedó so we can understand the spiritual parallel of Jesus being our "Sabbath rest." But the fact that Jesus is our spiritual "Sabbath rest" does not change the day of the week that God set apart and made holy. It does not make Sunday a holy day of rest and worship. And neither does it abolish God's Law. Instead, the Sabbath Day is a perfect compliment to the spiritual "Sabbath rest" we have in Jesus Christ, How's that? Think about this: one reason God created the Sabbath as a recurring weekly day of rest was to remind us that we cannot make ourselves holy: "You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy" (Exodus 3 1: 1). The weekly Sabbath day, Saturday, is a literal example of the spiritual rest we have in Christ. It is a perpetual reminder of our dependence upon Jesus Christ for both salvation and sanctification. Can a Sundaykeeper experience this literal symbolism? No, the Bible does not say Jesus is our "Sunday rest" ó it says He is our "Sabbath rest." The symbolism requires us to rest on Saturday" By the way this came from someone who left the church years ago, and has an awesome website also showing how E. G. White was a false prophet.... | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Sherry, on first sight what you have quoted or drawn from sounds like very confused thinking to me. Maybe I need to study it more, but it seems that this "someone who left the church years ago" has no clue as to the meaning of the new covenant. It is as though he/she thinks the old covenant and the new now exist together. And if that is so, then where are all the sacrifices of bulls and goats and sheep and doves? See what I mean? Inconsistent. What do you think? Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Sherry again, Another thing. You quoted this: "Never in all the Bible is there a single text telling us that the Sabbath has been abolished and another day of worship has taken it's place." That statement is half true. It is true that "Never in all the Bible is there a single text telling us that .... another day of worship has taken [the Sabbath's] place." This part is true, for it is rest in Jesus Christ that has "taken the place" of rest in a 24-hour, "sundown to sundown" period of time. One piece of scriptural evidence for this is Hebrews 4, where the writer argues that the unlimited eternal rest found only in Jesus Christ is superior to the limited 24-hour per week rest found in the weekly 7th-day Sabbath. Another piece of scriptural evidence is found in Colossians 2:16-18 NIV: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you [the Gentile Colossian believer who was worshipping on Sunday] ... with regard to ... a [weekly] Sabbath day. [It is only] a shadow of the ... reality ... [the eternal Sabbath rest which] is found in Christ." Now the other part of your quoted statement -- "Never in all the Bible is there a single text telling us that the Sabbath has been abolished..." -- is totally and utterly false. The required "single text" or "smoking gun" is found in Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV: "[Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two [the Jew who kept the Sabbath and the Gentile who didn't] destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by ABOLISHING in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations." This means the written form of ALL the law, including the Fourth Commandment. It does not mean the Spirit of the law, which was Jesus Christ in person, for he could not break himself. So the letter of the law was broken, but the Spirit of the law was preserved, improved, finalized and made eternally perfect in the person of Christ Jesus our ONLY Savior. Does this make sense to you? Under grace but not the written code of laws, Jude | ||
| sherry |
Well, no, that doesn't make sense to me. There is nothing sinful about the law. It did show us our sins, and that is how it brought a dividing wall. Romans 3:21-31 definitely testifies to it being established, but not saving us anymore...we are most definitely justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus through faith...but we establish the law. Are we saved by the law...well ofcourse not. There is definitely a distinction between the 10 commandments (which are definitely broader by Jesus' showing us what they really mean - they hang on the Royal Law to Love God with all your heart, and soul, and to love my neighbor as myself) that were placed into the ark of the covenant, where the written codes weren't. And for obvious reason, the written codes were pointing forward to the cross, as the Lord' supper and baptism point back or remind us of the cross. Have you taken a look at Albion Ballenger's pamphlet on the sanctuary? I found it so insightful to the whole business of sanctuary, new covenant, old covenant...and ofcourse he got thrown out of the sda church too. It really was too grace-filled for the church to accept...well here's a site link to it..it may be worth printing off and examining. I thought it was beautiful and made the whole picture complete...my thoughts only though. Here's the site: http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/cocc.htm...It's entitled "Cast out for the Cross of Christ" |
