| Author | Message | ||
| Debbie S |
As most of you are aware of, Ellen White, in ìThe Great Controversyî (and in other places, Iím sure) "prophecied" that Satan is our Scapegoat, and that our sins will be transferred to him just before he is cast into the lake of burning sulfur. Most Adventists think they know scripture. But the reality is, that they do not know where the Bible ends and Ellen White begins. Consider the following statement by Ms. White, found on page 673 of "The Great Controversy": "The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They 'shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' THE SINS OF THE RIGHTEOUS HAVING BEEN TRANSFERREDE TO SATAN, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit." The question that must be asked (and answered): "Is this Statement about Satan being our Scapegoat Biblical?" "Is Satan our Scapegoat?" "Will our sins one day be transferred to him?" I think not, as I will attempt to show, using the bible ONLY. Remember, we have to be careful that we do not read into scripture what it does not say (1 Corin. 4:6 ìDo not go beyond what is writtenî) In Leviticus 16, it states that on the Day of Atonement Aaron is to cast lots for the two goats which were to be offered, one lot for the Lord (for the sin offering) and one lot for the scapegoat (which the Israelites were to confess all of their sins over, and send out into the desert). In order to come to the conclusion that this scapegoat is referring to Satan and not Christ, we must find biblical basis for it. That is, we must be able to find scripture verses that state specifically that Satan will ultimately bear our sins. Otherwise, we will be guilty of going beyond what is written. Well, you will not find any verse in the Bible that describes Satan as the scapegoat. Instead, this is what you find: Psalm 103:12: ìAs far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.î Isaiah 43:25: ìI, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.î Isaiah 53:6: (This is the prophecy concerning Christ as the suffering servant) ìWe all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him (Christ, NOT Satan) the iniquity of us all.î Isaiah 53:11: ìAfter the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.î I Peter 2:21-24: ìTo this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. ëHe committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.í When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness. By his wounds we are healed.î Colossians 2:13-15: ìWhen you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.î In Revelation 20:7-10, Satanís doom is discussed, and says NOTHING about the sins of the righteous being transferred to him. ìWhen the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earthóGod and Magogóto gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of Godís people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfer, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.î Thatís ALL it saysóend of subject. It DOES NOT say ANYWHERE in the ENTIRE bible, that the sins of the righteous will be transferred to Satan. The only place it says that, is in extra biblical writings, such as in ìThe Great Controversyî by Ellen G. White. Once again, I admonish you to be careful not to go beyond what is written. Another area of contention between Ellen Whiteís teachings and scripture is on the subject of the Seal of God. Again, NOWHERE in scripture will you find a passage that states that the Sabbath is the Seal of God. Michael, this includes, Deut 6:4-8, which is based on the Old Covenant, which was made between God and the Israelites at Mt. Sinai, and which, at any rate, does not speak of the Seal of God, but instead of the way in which the Israelites where to act in specific terms. Their actions were to illustrate their relationship to God. There actions were to symbolize their devotion to the covenant they made with the Lord. A symbol is NOT the same thing as a seal. You WILL find three specific passages that PLAINLY state that it is the HOLY SPIRIT that is the Seal of God. But, you WILL NOT find ANYWHERE ANY passages that state that the Sabbath is the Seal of God. Again, it is an example of ìgoing beyond what is written,î something that Ellen White was extremely skillful at. Regarding the Seal of God: II Corinthians 1:22: ìNow it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us; and put his Spirit in our hearts, as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.î Ephesians 1:13: ìAnd you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are Godís possessionóto the praise of his glory.î Ephesians 4:30: ìAnd do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.î We must beware of those who speak what is not according to Godís word. ìWe must beware of false prophets that come in sheepís clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits we can recognize them.î (Matthew 7:15-16) Deuteronomy 18:19-22: ìIf anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ëHow can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?í If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.î Matthew 24:24-25: ìFor false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electóif that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.î II Corinthians 11:13-15: ìFor such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.î Colossions 2:8-11: ìSee to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ, all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ.î Colossians 2:16-19: ìTherefore, do not let ANYONE judge you by what you eat, or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. (NOTE: Ellen White claimed to have had over 2000 visions, which she claimed came from an angel of God, and which she described in great detailówhat most of her books are based on). Colossians 2:20-23: ìSince you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: ëDo not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!í These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on HUMAN commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack ANY value in restraining sensual indulgence.î Galatians 1:8: ìBut even if we or an angel from should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned.î I John 4:1: Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.î Revelation 22:18-19: ìI warn everyone who hears the words of the prophesy of this book: If ANYONE adds ANYTHING to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if ANYONE takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.î Well, this is a start. In hopes that ìThen you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free (John 8:32) Love in Christ, Debbie | ||
| Debbie S |
1)In Leviticus 16:5 it states that, ìFrom the Israelite community, he (Aaron) is to take TWO GOATS FOR A SIN OFFERING and a ram for a burnt offering.î Notice here that it says BOTH GOATS ARE FOR A SIN OFFERING. Surely you donít think that Satan was created to be a sin offering????????? 2) Verse 10 states ìBut the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord TO BE USED FOR MAKING ATONEMENT by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.î Surely you donít think that Satan will be used by God to make atonement for our sins???????? 1 John 2:2 states clearly that ìHe (meaning Jesus) is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.î Thus, it is Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, who is not only Godís sin offering for us, but who is also Godís scapegoat in that, through Him, God remembers our sins no more, when we accept his free gift of salvation. Psalm 103:12: ìAs far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.î Isaiah 43:25: ìI, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.î 3)Leviticus 16:21 states that ìHe (Aaron) is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat AND CONFESS OVER IT ALL THE WICKEDNESS AND REBELLION OF THE ISRALITESóALL THEIR SINSóAND PUT THEM ON THE GOATíS HEAD.î Again, the question must asked ìWho is it that we should confess our sins to (or over)??????? Surely it is not Satan, which is what you are saying when you claim that the scapegoat represents him. 1 John 1:9 states that ìIf we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.î Of course, this is referring to confessing to Christ, and NOT to Satan! 4)It is not a valid argument to state that simply because the scapegoat in Leviticus 16 does not die means it couldnít have represented Christ. It says that BOTH goats represented sin offerings for the people. Neither goat would have been in ANY way responsible for the sins of the people. This can NOT be said of Satan. He is the Originator of Sin. He is SO guilty and SO vile, that God would NEVER give him so much credit as to transfer our sins to him. To me the thought is UTTERLY BLASPHEMOUS! 5)At any rate, in the end Satan WILL lose his life when he is thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur (Revelation 20:10). And donít forget!!! Nowhere does it state in the Bible, and this includes the section in Revelation where Satanís doom is discussed, that the sins of the world will be transferred to Satan before he is sent to the Lake of Burning Sulfur. Revelation 20:7-10 reads as follows: ìWhen the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earthóGog and Magogóto gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of Godís people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.î 6)Consider the following argument found on www.truthorfables.com/Is_Jesus_or_Satan_Your_Scapegoat.htm Website: Why Jesus is Our Scapegoat 1. Jesus bore our sins at Calvary. 2. Jesus died in our place the death we deserved to die. 3. Jesusí death on the cross fulfilled the figure of the atonement of the two goats. Our sins were atoned by the shed blood of the Lordís goat and removed from us completely by the Living Scapegoat, Jesus. 4. Jesus, in bearing the sins of Godís people makes our salvation a reality even though we are not worthy. 5. Satan has no part in bearing the sins of Godís people and can never be the scapegoat. Those who believe that Satan is the scapegoat and bears the sins of the redeemed and is going to be punished for them are saying that the death of Jesus on the cross was not sufficient to save man. And that Jesus needed Satanís help to complete the atonement to save mankind. If this were true then the redeemed would be indebted to Satan as well as to Jesus for all eternity for their salvation. 7) It is interesting to note what exactly the word ìscapegoatî means. The Hebrew for the word is AZAZEL, which means ìgoat of removal.î Certainly it is Christ, and NOT Satan who removes our transgressions from us. Stop and think for a momentÖ.What exactly IS a scapegoat? The word ìscapegoating,î according to Websterís New Collegiate Disctionary, is ìthe action or process of casting blame for shortcomings or failure ON AN INNOCENT or at most only partly responsible party or group.î If thereís anything Satan IS NOT, itís innocent!!! Satan is the Serpent who deceived Eve (Genesis 3); he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is NO truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.î (John 8:44); He is the prince of this world (John 12:31); He is the god of this age (II Corin. 4:4a); He masquerades as an angel of light (II Corin. 11:14); He is the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. (Ephesians 2:2); He is the tempter (I Thess 3:5); He is our enemy, and he roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8); He is the Great Dragon and the Accuser of our brethren (Rev 12:9-10). In contrast, Jesus is ìthe image of the invisible God, the firstborn over ALL creation, for by Him ALL things were created, things on heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL things were created by him and for him. He is before ALL things, and in him ALL things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in EVERYTHING he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have ALL his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.î (Colossians 1:15-20); He is the Word of God, who dwelt among us (John 1); He is the radiance of Godís glory, the EXACT representation of his being, sustaining ALL things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, HE SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY IN HEAVEN.î (Hebrews 1:3); ìHe is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.î (John 1:29) ìHe was a Lamb WITHOUT blemish or defectî (1 Peter 1:19); He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth,î (Isaiah 53:9); for the transgression of my people, he was strickenî (Isaiah 53:8c)) He bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressorsî (Isaiah 53:12c); ìBUT BECAUSE JESUS LIVES FOREVER, HE HAS A PERMANENT PRIESTHOOD. Therefore, he is able to save COMPLETELY those who come to God through Him, because he ALWAYS lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need-ONE WHO IS HOLY, BLAMELESS, PURE, SET APART FROM SINNERS, EXALTED ABOVE THE HEAVENS. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE FOR ALL when he offered himself.î(Hebrews 7:23-27) It is Christ who deserves ALL of the glory, honor and praise, for HE has (alreadyópast tense) done great things, by blotting out our transgressions, through his incredible sacrifice of himself!!! May the Love of Christ dwell in your heart richly. Debbie | ||
| Max Gordon Phillips |
Stunning posts, Debbie! I've long believed that when Ellen White -- along with virtually ALL the SDA pioneers -- makes the scapegoat represent Satan, she makes him a diety, though a malevolent one. She assigns him the role of the evil twin brother of Christ. For her Christ in heaven was something less than fully God. For her the term "Son of God" meant Christ was something less, something inferior. And this is the first and most pernicious of all her heresies, and the root of almost all the dysfunctional damage her writings have done to all who followed her. For her the "war in heaven" was a battle between "Michael and his angels" (Christ) against Lucifer and his angels. In the Conflict of the Ages series she continues this theme until she created a full-fledged dualism between an evil demi-god and a good one. Among other things, this is an attack on the very sovereignty of God! For in her scenario Satan proudly possesses some of the powers of a God. Another of these dovetailed heresies is to make the trinity a "committee God." There is almost no end to heresies once a person starts playing around with the divinity of Christ! "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." And worst of all, hers must have been self-deception from the outset, which gave her an air of serious righteousness. And so, you're absolutely right. The vengeful logic of her operatic "screenplay" compelled her to make Satan the scapegoat in order for him to fill his "evil twin demi-god" role right on through to its baleful climax. But, as you point out so well, none of it is Scriptural. And therefore it is under John the Revelator's curse, as you also have clearly shown. Thanks so much for chaining together all those beautifully in-context Scriptures. In Christ, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Debbie, Funny thing, I was talking about these subjects recently with an SDA friend. I really enjoyed your study. You don't post very often, but, when you do you make up for lost paper! Keep it up......Maryann | ||
| sherry |
Very interesting discussion. That was very helpful to me, Debbie. Thank you. I never saw that before. | ||
| BMorgan |
Max, "Max" sounds shy and timid. I liked the mysterious fellow Jude the Obscure. Too many changes for me. Leaving adventism is hard enough, and now I have to reprogram here too? Are you forcing me to follow suit? I will in time. I love your insights. BMorgan | ||
| Max |
BMorgan, Christ is teaching me never to force anybody to do anything, to give the other person choices, to listen and affirm, to build self-esteem in the other, to "let bloom and blossom" those flowers growing in the kingdom of heaven that is under our feet as well as over our heads. Thanks for you affirmation, Max | ||
| Colleentinker |
Thank you, Debbie! And Max, thank you for pointing out that making Satan the scapegoat is just one part of the Conflict of the Ages deception that makes Satan (Lucifer) the equal opponent of Jesus. In many non-Christian traditions good and evil are made equal but opposite. Mormonism teaches that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers. Some overtly Satanic cults teach that they are brothers who had a fight and are still fighting. Buddhism teaches that the goal for a life is to balance opposing forces. A good Buddhist doesn't want to be too far on either the side of goodness or of badness. They want to be perfectly balanced. It seems to me that Satan often leaves a thumbprint which we can see if we're awake: whenever Jesus or holiness is presented as equally opposed to Satn or unholiness, we are looking at deception. Jesus is absolutely and clearly the victor. Satan is a defeated foe! There is nothing close to an equal battle raging between them. In fact, the battle is over. The resurrection spelled victory! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I have had a smile plastered across my face since the flower has bloomed. It was all in God's timing ;-) Morgan, When it's time for you to bloom, you'll know too :-) Still smiling.......Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Morgan, I'm still chuckling about what you said: "Max" sounds shy and timid."! The 3 Max's that I've know were not shy nor timid and neither is this one;-) And praise God for that. Every part of the body has it's own function like each of the people that contribute on this Forum. The part that Jude represented, I believe, got stronger when it went to it's scientific name, Max. Maryann | ||
| Max |
Debbie, Are we going to hear more from you? | ||
| Susan |
What a great discussion! I believe this is a topic that's at the heart of what cults do best. Yes, they all have unbiblical and false doctrines. But, if you take just the nature of Jesus Christ as a test for orthodoxy, how many groups fail? It's interesting to examine how all the cults alter the nature of Christ. It's fascinating to me that mainstream churches don't see this heretical side of Adventism. It should make us all want to scream from our roof-tops! Personally I don't take the nature of Christ lightly. It's sacred, holy and divine. To take away anything from his supreme authority is to offend God almighty. I pray that our SDA friends will "wake up and smell the coffee!" Ponder for a while, "who is the Jesus of Adventism?" Check out what orthodox Christianity has taught about the nature of Jesus Christ, down through the years. Pray that the Holy Spirit will direct your searching. Now, I know some of you will think I'm a bit harsh. But frankly, I don't care. I don't want to sugarcoat the importance of this topic. It's only your eternal destiny that's at stake! May God richly bless those who seek to embrace His truth, found only in Jesus Christ. Susan | ||
| Max |
Susan, I don't think you're a bit harsh. You waked up and smelled the.... Coffee? Postum? Pero? Chicory? Hickory? Dickory? Dock? I have a minister friend, mainstream Protestant, not SDA, who says SDAs are all right theologically. But those Mormons! Now THEY "deny the divinity of Christ at a very fundamental level." I burst out at him, "So do the Adventists!" Somehow I think Adventist leadership has managed to do a number on the other churches. Great success to you in your mission. And hope you post here as often as you possibly can. Keep us undated, okay? Max | ||
| Max |
Oops, I mean, updated. | ||
| dwayne |
Since Jesus Christ bore the repentant sinner's sins and paid for his sins, how is it that the SDA church promotes a doctrine (investigative judgement) that would have the repentant sinner's sins, not only being borne and paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross, but also being borne and paid for by Satan (incorrectly designated as the sin-bearing scapegoat)??? Does it take two sin bearers and two deaths to atone for the sins of Adventists??? | ||
| bethany |
It is my opinion that Adventist leadership is a master at brainwashing. Not only those in the church, but those on the outside who may be in the same legalistic boat, just a different color! So, I'm not too surprised that they've convinced so many others that their theology is okay. Adventists friends might benefit from a little more "harshness", it's not easy getting out the stains of deception. | ||
| Debbie S |
Dwayne: "Does it take two sin bearers and two deaths to atone for the sins of Adventists???" Very Good Point! I think this is what the "Satan as the Scapegoat" message in essence is saying. In Leviticus 16, the two goats represented two different aspects of the SAME atoning sacrifice: 1) The need for the shedding of blood ("For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins"). 2) The need for our sins to be removed ("As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us"). Satan isn't qualified--NOR worthy--to do either one of these, of course! Do SDAs believe that our sins are out there in limbo somewhere (in the clouds are something), just waiting for the time when they will be put on Satan? Or is it that they think Jesus is still bearing them, because we are all still sinning, even after he died on the cross? (unless, of course, you've reached that "sinless state" EG White speaks of???) Thus, when Jesus throws our sins on Satan's head, he will be relieved of the burden he has been bearing for 2000+ years???? So many don't seem to get the central point: This is that ALL of our sins (past, present AND future) were nailed on the cross when Jesus died. Thus, once we recognize our utter hopelessness apart from Christ, and accept his FREE GIFT of salvation, our sins are GONE FOREVER. Psalm 103:12: ìAs far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.î Isaiah 43:25: ìI, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.î | ||
| sherry |
Ok, gotta question. I was surprised to see in this Inductive Study Bible I got that they place the Day of Atonement as an event to happen at Christ's second coming. To keep with dates and fulfillment of the order of the feasts,Passover-Christ's death on the cross, Pentecost - Acts and the Holy Spirit, Feast of Trumpets - where we're at now....preparing for final day of atonement, and Day of Atonement, and then Feast of Tabernacles. Is there still a symbolic Day of Atonement to be made? It does seem logical that this day and age would be the Feast of Trumpets symbolically - blowing the horns of warning..Prepare for the Day of the Lord is at hand type thing? And another question, in another study of the scapegoat, it was said that the reason Satan represents the scapegoat is that he bears the guilt for causing the people to sin (not directly for the sins themselves)It is his sin that places him outside the camp (into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years)? Just something I heard...thought I'd see what you thought? I'm really cracking my Bible open on this one. Thanks. | ||
| Max |
I agree, Debbie, About where the sins are, Ellen White says they are in the sanctuary where they are COVERED by Christ's blood until the investigative judgment is over. When in the future everybody lines up on one side or the other, either on: 1. the Sabbath worship side, or on 2. the Sunday worship side, Then all cases will have been decided: "Let him who is righteous be righteous still, and him who is filthy be filthy still." Then, in SDA sanctuary doctrine, Jesus puts the sins of the saved on the head of Satan (typified by the goat Azazel) and he is sent off into the wilderness to BEAR OUR SINS! There are many things wrong with this scenario, but I'm too tired tonight to deal with them. Want to give it a shot? Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all, I am abolutely convinced that if we don't understand the nature of Christ, WE HAVE NO FOUNDATION! My dear friend of 30+ years talked again about the nature of Christ. He is going to either post from his computer or e-mail to mine and let me post his view. Hopefully it will be this week. If not it will be in 5 or 6 weeks. He has a campmeeting to run up north and that takes a lot of time. He, like so many SDAs believes that Jesus had a sinful nature. I will be interested in how he presents this. I have such a burden for him and his following! He says he will be able to show both sides of the issue. Onward and upward........Maryann | ||
| Max |
What's wrong with saying, "Our sins are covered"? 1. The statement is unscriptural. It's not found in Scripture. 2. It contradicts what IS found in Scripture: Our sins are forgiven and forgotten by God. As Debbie has so elequently pointed out, they are removed as far as the east is from the west. Therefore they aren't around to be placed on the head of any goat. This is my answer. Under grace + 0, Max | ||
| dwayne |
Hi Max. If I may: Ps 32:1 A Psalm of David. A Contemplation. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. Romans 4:3-8 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." | ||
| dwayne |
Max, The flaw in what EGW puts forward is not that our sins are covered (since they are removed, cast into the depths, forgiven, and forgotten; hence, covered), but that our sins were taken into the sanctuary. Christ did not take our sins into heaven, for He ascended to the Father... sinless! And as for the investigative judgment doctrine... it has no Scriptural support either. For He Alone is Worthy! | ||
| dwayne |
Some may ask, "Where does our sin go?". In the case of the unrepentant sinner ....his sin remains with him. "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20. The confessing, repentent, sinner has his sin taken away by the Sin Bearer. Whom does the Bible portray as the One to take away our sins? John the Baptist introduced Him this way: "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29. Romans 6:23 makes it clear. "For the wages of sin is death, ..." Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, our Sin Bearer, paid the wages of sin. "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed." 1Peter 2:24. Jesus Christ died the second/eternal death because that's 'the wages of sin'. For the first time, in an eternity, Jesus was SEPARATED from His Heavenly Father, BECAUSE OF SIN. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46. The Bible makes it plain. Sin separates one from God! "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God," Hebrews 10:12. How was this possible? Jesus no longer represented sin to His Father. Jesus Christ knew no sin and in Him there is no sin! Jesus Christ, our Sin Bearer, a lamb without blemish and without spot, was resurrected as sinless as He always was! (He died, because He was bearing our sins; therefore, in order to be resurrected alive, He had to no longer be bearing our sins). It is written: "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1John 3:5. "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; ..." Leviticus 16:22. Therefore, we can conclude: Sin, like the unrepentant sinner, can not come into God's presence/the Most Holy Sanctuary of God Almighty! | ||
| Max |
Very good, Dwayne, You're sharp. Yes, indeed! In the times of the Old Testament, when the old covenant was in effect, people's sins were indeed covered. Forgiveness was only provisional, dependent on Christ's first coming. Hebrews 11:39 NIV makes this clear: "These [Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." And in fact, these are the people -- the "before Christ came" people of faith, specifically, Abraham and David -- of whom Paul was speaking in Romans 4:1-8. THEIR sins were covered, but only until Christ came. At that time ALL sins were forgiven by virtue of the cross. So Abraham's sins are no longer covered. And neither are yours and mine. They are -- as Debbie has rightly pointed out -- REMOVED! The reason the Adventists are heretical is that they don't believe the atonement (between God and human) was complete at the cross. For Adventists, the atonement is STILL incomplete. For them the process of completion of the atonement BEGAN on October 22, 1844 and STILL isn't complete. Nor will it be complete, in their view, until God places our sins -- even Abraham's! -- on the head of Satan who is then led out into somekind of otherworldly wilderness to BEAR THE SINS OF THE SAVED! Heresy of heresies! This is, along with the mother of all heresies -- the Adventist denial of the full divinity of Christ -- is the reason why Adventism is not considered a fully Christian religion by non-Adventist theologians who are aware of what the SDA church really does teach. I'm very sorry about this situation. But the only thing I can do about it is to keep pointing it out to Adventists and former Adventists in the FAF Discussions under the "TO OUR ADVENTIST FRIENDS" heading. This is a way to "re-functionalize dysfunctionalized Adventists" who are willing to look squarely at what Scripture is saying. Which is why I'm so grateful for people like Debbie S. who are helping to point these heresies out to our Adventist and former Adventist friends. I think you could help too, Dwayne, if you wanted to. You're certainly bright enough to help with the task. G + 0 = P (grace plus nothing equals peace), Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Dwayne, You posted twice more before I was able to respond to your 10:30 AM post. In view of those two posts, I would have some questions to ask of you. Here's one: Can you prove from Scripture that the sins of unrepentant sinners were NOT forgiven by Christ on the cross? It seems to me that they were. For Romans 5:8 NIV says, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Now if we "were still sinners," then we were still UNREPENTANT sinners. Is this not so? Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Dwayne again, You wrote, "Sin, like the unrepentant sinner, can not come into God's presence/the Most Holy Sanctuary of God Almighty!" If this is so, then how could all those tax collectors, drunks and prostitutes come into the presence of Jesus Christ? Are you going to tell me that Jesus Christ is NOT God Almighty in verity? And if you are going to tell me that HE IS NOT, then I'm going to have to tell you that HE IS! For Isaiah prophesied of his coming (Isaiah 9:6 NIV): "For to us a child [Jesus] is born, to us a son [Jesus] is given, and the government will be on his [Jesus'] shoulders. And he [Jesus] will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace!" That's pretty powerful stuff to have to deny, Dwayne! G + 0 = P, Max | ||
| sherry |
Has anyone read my post above? I really am asking a question.....Why does this Inductive Study Bible (that is not Seventh-day Adventist) put the Day of Atonement as still being a future thing?.... | ||
| Max |
Hi Sherry, I don't have an Inductive Study Bible. Whether or not it's an SDA Bible is irrelevant. But if it is teaching that the Day of Atonement is still future, it is a false translation of the Bible. Another false translation is the Clear Word Bible, which IS an SDA Bible. I'll provide for you two texts (out of a large number) that prove that the Day of Atonement was fulfilled by the once-and-once-only, historical, finished sacrifice of Christ. 1. Hebrews 9:26-28 NIV: "He [Christ] HAS appeared ONCE for all at the end of the ages [the time of the cross] to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die ONCE, and after that to face judgment, so Christ WAS sacrificed ONCE to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." 2. Hebrews 10:11-14 NIV: "Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can NEVER take away sins. But when this priest HAD offered for ALL time ONE sacrifice for sins, he SAT down at the right hand of God. SINCE THAT TIME he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by ONE sacrifice he HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." I don't know how this could be made any clearer. The atonement has already taken place. Period. This is the meaning of Jesus' loud cry on the cross, "It is finished!" Sorry, but it wasn't, "I am finished!" "IT -- the atonement between God and human beings -- IS FINISHED!" G+0=P, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Sherry, You wrote, "It is his [Satan's] sin that places him outside the camp (into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years)?" How do you equate "outside the camp" with "the bottomless pit"? Any supporting Scripture? Just curious, Max | ||
| sherry |
It just seemed symbolic of it perchanse. What do you understand the bottomless pit to be? How does one go about interpreting Revelation anyways? And what do you think the two prophets are? Did you watch that movie "Omega Code"? That was an interesting interpretation. I guess I'm trying to let my mind take in looking at other interpretations to challenge myself, and to release the SDA mindset of these texts that has been there for so long. I find it very funny that I was sick and tired of our church teaching Dan/Rev. all the time, and didn't want to have anything to do with it, and now look at me, trying to get understanding...but it's different....I'm trying to get out of the brain-washing. You gotta realize, I was the Bible reader at academy for 3 years - I read, and re-read this material over and correcting 100's and 100's of papers concerning this material. It's in my head like glue. | ||
| Max |
WHY THE ADVENTISTS ARE WRONG ABOUT INTERPRETING THE BOOK OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST Hi Sherry, You certainly are a persistent citizen of the kingdom of heaven. "BOTTOMLESS PIT," huh? It occurs several times in Revelation. At the first occurrence, Rev. 9:1, the NIV has a text note that says the Abyss ("bottomless pit" in KJV) is "conceived of as the subterranean abode of demonic hordes." For example, read Luke 8:30-31 NIV: ^^^Jesus asked him [the demon-possessed man], "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they [the demons] begged him [Jesus] repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss."^^^ In other words, they didn't want to go into "the pit." Because it is a place of torment owned and managed by God. The sovereign God keeps them there. He lets them fly out from time to time to do his bidding. But generally God guards them there with angels to whom God gives the key (Re. 20:1-3). The "TWO WITNESSES" are mentioned in Rev. 11:3 NIV: "I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." NIV text note says: the "two witnesses" are "modeled after Moses and Elijah [Rev. 11:5-6]. They may symbolize testifying believers in the final period before Christ returns. Or they may be two actual individuals who will be martyred for the proclamation of the truth." As far as interpreting Revelation generally is concerned, there is a note in the Introduction to Revelation that lists four categories of interpreters: 1. PRETERISTS ("preter-" means "past," so these interpreters are "past"-ists) understand the book exclusively in terms of its first-century setting, claiming that most of its events have already taken place. 2. HISTORICISTS take it as describing the long chain of events from Patmos to the end of history. 3. FUTURISTS place the book primarily in the end times. 4. IDEALISTS view it as symbolic pictures of such timeless truths as the victory of good over evil. Say the NIV scholars, "Fortunately, the fundamental truths of Revelation do not depend on adopting a particular point of view. They are available to anyone who will read the book for its overall message and resist the temptation to become overly enamored with the details." Page 1923. I personally use the "if the shoe fits, wear it" method. For example, take the beast of Rev. 13:11. ^^ I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. ^^ The Seventh-day Adventists, with zero Scriptural support or authority, claim that this brute represents the United States. Hear, for instance, A. Jan Marcussen's description in "National Sunday Law: Forces United Amid Stupendous Crisis" (15,000,000 copies in print), pages 2-3: ^^ When a beast comes up out of the "sea " it is represented in prophecies rising amid many "peoples and multitudes," (a highly populated area). Revelation 17:15. To come out of the "earth" is just the opposite. So here we have a nation that is springing up out of a wilderness area. Instead of overthrowing vast and well-trained armies from the dense populations of the old world, this nation would be an area "discovered.' In the eyes of the "known world," it would be new territory. Differing from the often blood-soaked nations of Europe, it would spring up quietly, peacefully, "like a lamb." Can you guess what nation of the "new world" arose into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, that would fit this description? Sure! The United States. ^^ Trouble is, there's not one shred of scriptural evidence that supports his claim, which is orthodox Adventism. Revelation 17:15 NIV does say that the "waters you [John] saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, national and languages." As we have seen from Marcussen (above) the official Adventist interpretation is that "to come out of the 'earth' is just the opposite," a "wilderness area." HERE'S WHY THE SDA INTERPRETATION IS WRONG FIRST: It is UNFACTUAL. When North America was discovered it was not unpopulated. To say that it was, is to deny the facts: For Native Americans populated it "from sea to shining sea" east-to-west and "from Arctic to Antarctic" north-to-south. SECOND: It is RACIST, as though Native Americans are not people at all. It is to claim that they "don't count" in the spiritual realm of Revelation. Therefore if history says they were massacred with the white man's guns and destroyed by the white man's diseases and their land just stolen, WHO CARES? They're not people anyway - just animals! Wipe them out! Take their land! WHO CARES? Well, now that my Irish is up again, I'll tell you who cares, Sherry: GOD CARES! AND I CARE! THIRD: It is STUPID, DECEPTIVE, UNPATRIOTIC AND UNGRATEFUL: It equates the United States, "the land of the free and the home of the brave" with all the evil of Satanic forces. Stupide, huh? SDA evangelists, theologians, teachers and professors of religion, writers, pastors and administrators all speak with forked tongue here. For they BLESS this land for giving them religious freedom, then in their evangelism and theology they CURSE it for being the demonic beast of Revelation 13! This inane interpretation also lets far more evil states -- such as Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany - off the hook! Not to mention Libya, Iraq, etc. No, these countries are not bestial or demonic! Only the United States is! Why? Because our self-praising, self-serving prophetic interpretation says so! And that is the ONLY reason our Adventist friends can muster. There are still more reasons why the Adventist interpretation of this beast is wrong and "off-the-charts" in a downwardly direction. Such as, Why not South America? Why only North America? Both lands were discovered at the same time! But as far as I am concerned just these three are "plenty enough" to send the official Adventist interpretation to perdition. (I'm trying to get my Irish to come back down now.) Onward: Here's the MGP* interpretation: Consider the moral, ethical and spiritual parameters of "The Beast out of the Earth of Revelation 13: No. 1: The beast speaks like a dragon and exercises all the authority of the first beast and makes the inhabitants of the earth worship the first beast. No. 2: He performs miracles and deceives people. No. 3:He sets up an idol and causes all who refuse to worship it to be killed. No. 4: He sees to it that no one can buy or sell unless he has an evil stamp of approval (mark of the beast). The NIV text notes say this about this beast: ^^ According to some, he symbolizes religious power in the service of secular authorities. According to others, he is the personal false prophetÖ. He attempts to appear gentle and harmless [has two horns like a lamb]. Ö The beast from the earth IS UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE BEAST FROM THE SEA. The latter is subject to the dragon. Satan, secular power and religious compromise (or Satan, the antichrist and the false prophet) join against the cause of God: Father, son and Holy Spirit. Ö The mark of the beast apparently symbolized allegiance to the demands of the imperial cult. In the final days of the antichrist it will be the ultimate test of loyalty. ^^ Note that "the mark of the beast" here is NOT SUNDAY WORSHIP. All right, the MGP* interpretation says, "If the shoe fits, wear it." Meaning:WHOEVER BEHAVES THIS WAY IS THE BEAST! Does the hierarchy of the Seventh-day Adventist church behave this way? Has it ever? Does the "Merikay v. Pacific Press" case offer any insight? Does the G.C. President Bob Folkenberg episode mean anything to you? Or the Des Ford incident? How about the Walter Rea fiasco? Or Seventh-day Adventists murdering their own people in Rwanda only a few years ago? How about the church's century-long cover-up of Ellen G. White's plagiarism? This list could go on and on. But I think the point is made. G+0=P, *Max Gordon Phillips | ||
| dwayne |
Indeed, you're correct Max. Christ did die for us while we were yet unrepentant sinners. And... "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1John 1:9 | ||
| Debbie S |
Hi Sherry, In response to your statement: "It was said that the reason Satan represents the scapegoat is that he bears the guilt for causing the people to sin (not directly for the sins themselves)It is his sin that places him outside the camp (into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years)?" 1) I conducted a word search under the word "goat" and "goats" in my NIV Exhaustive Concordance, and I noticed something VERY interesting. Goats, when used as sacrifices, are almost always used for sin offerings or for making atonement. (The one exception is in Leviticus 3 when a goat is used as a fellowship offering). Under "goat" I found: Lev 4:22-24 "When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the Lord his God, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a MALE GOAT without defect. He is to lay his hand on the GOAT'S head and slaughter it at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered before the Lord. It is a SIN OFFERING Lev 4:28 "When he is made aware of the SIN he committed, he must bring as his offering for the SIN he committed a FEMALE GOAT without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the SIN OFFERING and at the place of the burnt offering." Lev 9:3 "Take a MALE GOAT for a SIN OFFERING..." Lev 9:15 "He took the GOAT for the people's SIN OFFERING..." Lev 10:16 "...about the GOAT of the SIN OFFERING and found..." Lev 16:5 "From the Israelite community he is to take two MALE GOATS for a SIN OFFERING and a ram for a burnt offering." Lev 16:15 "...then slaughter the GOAT for the SIN OFFERING." Num 7:16,22,28,34,40,46,52,58,64,70,76,82 all say "...one MALE GOAT for a SIN OFFERING;" Num 15:24 "...and a MALE GOAT for a SIN OFFERING." Num 15:27 "...a year-old FEMALE GOAT for a SIN OFFERING." Num 28:22,30;29:5,11,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,38 all say "Include one MALE GOAT as a SIN OFFERING." But Num 28:30 says "Include one MALE GOAT to MAKE ATONEMENT." Eze 43:22 "..a MALE GOAT without defect for a SIN OFFERING." Under "goats" I found: Lev 16:5 "From the Israelite community he is to take two MALE GOATS for a SIN OFFERING and a ram for a burnt offering." Num 7:16 "One male goat for a SIN OFFERING..." Num 7:87 "The total number of animals for the burnt offering came to twelve young bulls, twelve rams and twelve male lambs a year old, together with their grain offering. Twelve MALE GOATS were used for the SIN OFFERING." 2 Chron 29:21 "They brought seven bulls, seven rams, seven male lambs and seven MALE GOATS as a SIN OFFERING for the kingdom, for the sanctuary and for Judah..." 2 Chron 29:23-24 "The GOATS for the SIN OFFERING were brought before the king and the assembly, and they laid their hands on them. The priests then slaughtered the goats and presented their blood on the altar for a SIN OFFERING to ATONE for all Israel." Ezr 6:17 "...a SIN OFFERING for all Israel, twelve MALE GOATS..." Ezr 8:35 "...as a SIN OFFERING, twelve MALE Goats..." What my word search proved to me is that NOWHERE in the ENTIRE bible is a goat EVER used to represent Satan as the scapegoat--not even as simply the one who bears the guilt for causing man to sin. The goat is ALWAYS used as a SIN OFFERING or for MAKING ATONEMENT. Surely, Satan bearing the guilt for causing man to sin IS NOT in any way, shape or form, a sin offering OR a form of atonement. Only One person is qualified to do this, and it has already been done, through the precious blood of Jesus, our Holy Savior, who is God the Son, and who is alive and well today! Thus, as I mentioned earlier, the "Satan as our Scapegoat" theory is simply an extra biblical teaching that came from extra-biblical writers, such as EG White. 2) It is useful to remember here that when Eve was first busted for giving into temptation in the Garden of Eden, she tried to pin the blame on Satan for her sin. "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." (Genesis 3:13b) The reality is, that WE are FULLY responsible for OUR OWN sins, and unless we have received Christ's free gift of salvation, WE will pay the penalty for OUR OWN sin. But we, who are trusting in the Lord to save us, will have no need to be afraid or ashamed. For he will NEVER leave us or forsake us, and NOONE can snatch us out of his hand!!!!! And Satan will pay alright for his sin of pride and rebellion, and for setting out to deceive the world, as it says in Revelation 20:7-10: "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. AND THE DEVIL, WHO DECEIVED THEM, WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET HAD BEEN THROWN. THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER." Amen and Hallelujah!!! Love in Christ, Debbie | ||
| dwayne |
Max wrote: (Are you going to tell me that Jesus Christ is NOT God Almighty in verity?) No I am not going to tell you that, Max! Jesus is God, Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is also Man, Jesus is the Son of Man and He died because of my sin! I must say that I'm becoming reluctant about continuing to post here. I have absolutely no desire for the type of confrontation I experienced on "the church" forum. I will say this. Sin and God are not compatible. God is Life. Sin is death. Is it possible to edit previous posts??? If so, how? | ||
| Debbie S |
Dwayne, Please don't stop posting! I am enjoying your presence on this forum. Max doesn't mean any harm. It's just that in the past, there have been people who've pretended to be for us, when in reality they were against us. For example, people posting under several different names (with several different personalities--how do they do that?!) Anyway, you're welcome here anytime, in my book! God Bless You! In Christ, Debbie | ||
| dwayne |
Debbie S, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, takes away the sin of the world! And what does the Bible say the devil takes away? "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the DEVIL comes and TAKES AWAY THE WORD out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." Luke 8:12. | ||
| dwayne |
God bless you, Debbie S, Your right on with your take on the scapegoat! And I appreciate your encouragement. | ||
| Max |
I agree, Dwayne, That sin and God are not compatible. "For God cannot be tempted by evil." James 1:13 NIV. But Jesus Christ, God Almighty in verity, being fully human AND fully God, MUST allow sinful human beings into his presence. Else there is no salvation for anyone. We are utterly unable to prepare ourselves to enter a presence that cannot take in an utterly sinful, utterly depraved human being. For we are all utterly depraved, and even after accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we are STILL utterly depraved. All our righteous deeds are STILL "filthy rags" (used menstruation cloths, Greek). Therefore we are still sinners. We are both utterly sinful in and of ourselves and utterly perfect in and of Christ ALL THE TIME until we are changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." We cannot compromise this truth. I am sorry if I seemed confrontive, but I must defend the pure gospel, which is the good news, the relieving news, that we can't do anything but believe on an atoning act that occurred 1,970 years ago. You can blame on Ellen G. White the heresy that sinners cannot come into the presence of a sinless and holy God. She is responsible for many, many heresies. Peace and blessings, Max | ||
| dwayne |
Sherry, You mentioned something about the scapegoat being outside the camp because "It is his sin that places him outside the camp". Since Jesus Christ (not Satan) is the sin-bearing scapegoat, let's see how Scripture portrays Jesus Christ being "outside the camp". "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach." Hebrews 13:12,13 The scapegoat bore all our iniquities (not his iniquities, Sherry) to an uninhabited land, the wilderness, outside the gate, outside the camp, on the cross! This was where our Sin Bearer, Jesus Christ suffered and bore our sins to the death! Question: Who was it that incorrectly identified Satan as the sin-bearing scapegoat of God's people? Answer: EGW (GC. p.422,485,658) and those that believe that she is an infallible interpreter of the Bible. The Bible conclusively and correctly identifies Jesus Christ as the one and only Sin Bearer of the world. (1John 3:5,8; 1Peter 2:24; Isaiah 53:6,11,12; Psalm 103:12; John 1:29; Romans 11:27) For He Alone is Worthy! | ||
| Max |
Amen. | ||
| jtree |
THE QUESTION NOBODY IS ASKING! The Question nobody is asking is stated in Job 25:4, "How then can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of woman?" To the natural man, the answer to this question would be placed under the category of dull and uninteresting subjects. We are by nature so selfish and man centered that this question simply is not important to us. But the fact that nobody is asking this question does not take away from its importance. If we can learn the answer to this question, we have learned the gospel! The issue behind the question can be stated like this. How can God be consistent with His justice, and yet justify somebody who is unjust? If somebody asks, "Why bring up the question in the first place? Does it really even matter? It matters because the word of God brings it up. But let me answer the question by asking another question. What would you think of a human judge who justified people who were guilty? What would you think of a judge who let a serial killer go free to walk our streets? Would it matter to you? If God does let people who are guilty into heaven without His justice being satisfied, than God would be no more just the human judge who let the serial killer go free. We shudder at the implications of a God who is not just. The God of the Bible is holy. In His holiness He hates sin. In Hebrews 1:9 we read, "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity." God is so holy that He cannot let sin go unpunished. When He described Himself to Moses in Exodus 34:7, He said that He "would by no means clear the guilty". But not only is God holy; we are sinful and guilty! The scriptures say in Romans 3:10-12, "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is non that doeth good, no not one." If God is so holy that He "will by no means clear the guilty", and we are guilty, how can God bring any guilty sinner into heaven? The Bible does provide us with an answer to this question. We read in Romans 3:25-26, "God set forth Christ to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness.....that He might be just, and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus". The word "propitiation" means literally "an atoning victim". The sins of God's elect were placed upon Christ on the cross. God was the one who placed them there. Only He had the authority to do it. Christ was actually made sin. "For He hath made Him to be sin." God laid this sin on Christ, and the He poured His wrath out upon Him. He punished the sins of His people in Christ. Christ was guilty as the sinner's substitute. He was charged with the sins of His people. Not Satin. But the imputation of guilt was not the only imputation going one. That perfect righteousness that Christ worked out was imputed to everybody that He died for. And now everybody that He died for is counted not guilty. By virtue of what Christ did on the cross, the people that God brings into heaven are not guilty! That is how God can be just and yet justify the ungodly. They are actually made just by imputation. Many believe that Christ was making salvation a possibility on the cross if we will just do our part. But Christ was not making salvation a possibility. He was saving! He literally accomplished the salvation of all of God's elect. This is how an unjust man can be just with God. And dear friends, we can trust the Saviour who accomplished a salvation like that! | ||
| sherry |
Thank you so much for all your insights and Scriptures. This is helpful to me. The Hebrew 13 text especially. I still have another question...I hope you don't mind. Is the judgement different than the symbolic Day of Atonement then? "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, wheter good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:9,10. Romans 14:10, etc. What about the judgment of the wicked? And how do I seperate out guilt that came from reading EGWhite's books and true guilt of things I need to confess and leave that God's convicting me of? |
