| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
It is possible that Christianity has more diverse beliefs about the Holy Spirit than about any other single doctrine. Some denominations say that the "falling of the Holy Ghost" upon the soul will inevitably result in the manifestation of the spiritual gift of tongues, that the lack of presence of this gift is indicative of the lack of the Holy Spirit in one's life. Others say that when the believer is in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit, his/her life will reflect such a change in character, that all can see the Spiritual reflection of Christ in word and action. Fringe groups claim that healing and miracles are signs of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. There is some evidence in the Bible for each of these views, but, I believe that one must always: 1. Examine each subject in the light of the Gospel, and 2. Look at the preponderance of evidence in the Scriptures. Let's begin this study with a text very near and dear to the heart of SDAism: Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." How many times is this quoted in the SDA church? Unfortunately, it has been skewed to mean something else, something almost blasphemous, but we will not discuss that at this point.. What is the real meaning of this text? It is not difficult: the words are right there, right in front of your eyes and need very little spin or interpretation. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." What is the spirit of prophecy? The testimony, the witnessing of Jesus. I believe, just as the overwhelming amount of OT prophecy was of Jesus Christ, that the New Testament prophet is one who testifies of Jesus. And who inspires this testimony? The Holy Spirit, of course. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, John 16 contains a very important passage concerning the role of the Holy Spirit:: John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; The Holy Spirit will convict the word of sin. This is not necessarily referring to one's conscience that prevents him from doing certain things or convicts him that something he did was wrong. Notice the definition: " ... concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me." 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; I find this very interesting. The phrase "concerning righteousness" is not in regard our own righteousness, our merits, the fruits of our own labors, but, clearly, the righteousness of which we are convicted is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "...because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me," or, in other words, we no longer physically behold the One who is righteous. 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. The Holy Spirit will convict the believer concerning judgment. The judgment of his "good" works before the throne of God? Hardly. "Because the ruler of this world has been judged." The Holy Spirit will reveal to us that Satan is a defeated foe, that we have no need to fear the evil forces in our lives, because Satan has been judged, condemned, and defeated. Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. What a wonderful promise! When the Holy Spirit comes to us, He will guide us into all truth. What is Truth? John 3:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." John 8:31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. We are promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth. Continuing with this passage in John 16. 16:14 "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you. 16:16 "A little while, and you will no longer behold Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." While the presence of the Holy Spirit does produce fruit, and the believers will exhibit the gifts of the Spirit, the main role of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus. When we tell others of the great mercy of God in Jesus Christ, of His saving work for us, of His magnificence, perfection, and glory, we do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. When we say that we believe that Jesus' sacrifice was absolutely sufficient, that all who come to Him are in no wise cast out, that He will save His people to the uttermost, we are prophecying, and we are so doing with the help of the Holy Spirit. When we say, with Simon Peter, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," we can also know that "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Continued in Part 2 | ||
| Plain Patti |
Many Christians are caught up in "signs," or observable physical manifestations to "prove" that they are God's children. Yet, we are told that Jesus told Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." So, I believe, it is with us. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. If we can see it, if we can observe it, it is not of faith. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Faith is believing without tangible evidence. It is knowing that we are a child of God, without the "signs and wonders." Jesus says that it is an "evil and adulterous generation" that asks for a sign. This can apply directly to the believers' lives also. If one maintains that one is not "saved" without "proof" of having the Holy Spirit, the seal of God's salvation, as an outward observable manifestation, then one denies salvation by faith in Christ alone. The focus is lifted from the objective, historical, and unrepeatable saving act of God in Christ, and it is placed upon the believer. As I have heard no one here claim that his/her life is a model of sinless perfection, when the "gospel" message is believer-centric, the believer naturally must remain doubtful and insecure about salvation. When we stay focused on the perfection of Jesus Christ, our confidence is strong, and we can sing confidently, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness." What is the main outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer? The testimony of Jesus. I am not saying that God does not use signs and wonders, but I do not believe that they are necessary for the believer whose faith in the saving work of Christ is strong. Jesus said that it was "a wicked and adulterous generation" who "asks for a miraculous sign." We are asked to believe. On the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fell upon the believers with great power. Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. What was the result of this unprecedented outpouring of the Spirit? They testified to the dead and risen Savior. 22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Another example of a New Testament report of someone being "filled with the Spirit": Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is "`the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." What did Peter do, being "filled with the Holy Spirit"? Correct. He testified of Jesus. Another example: Acts 4:31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. Again, filled with the Spirit, the apostles testified of Jesus. Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Stephen, another individual proported to be full of faith, testified of Jesus in Acts 6 and 7 before the members of the Sanhedrin stoned him in hysterical rage. Acts 9:17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. Another incident with Paul: Acts 13:9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun." Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord. Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "`I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. 49 The word of the Lord spread through the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit. Barnabas was also another powerful witness for Christ. Acts 11:23 When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. 24 He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord. Every instance in Acts of "being filled with the Holy Spirit" resulted in testifying of Jesus Christ, which, in turn resulted in many others hearing and believing. Ephesians 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here, again, in Ephesians, being "filled with the Spirit" relates to edifying the church with the praise of the Lord Jesus Christ. When we believe in Jesus Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit. What is the main evidence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer? According to the evidence given in the New Testament in the verses given above, "the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy." Continued in Part 3. | ||
| Plain Patti |
We have seen that the main outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our lives is the testimony of Jesus. Now let us examine the purpose of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was filled with the Spirit. John 1:32 And John bore witness saying, "I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 1:33 "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 1:34 "And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." John 6:27, 28 Do not labour for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal. The Holy Spirit is the Seal of God. The presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives is the guarantee that the Christian has that Christ has saved him. Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. It is the Holy Spirit that "seals us to God." He is our guarantor that our inheritance is secure. And what brings about this "sealing"? Belief in the Gospel. Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? This sets up a nice chain reaction: We hear the Gospel, and believe. (Faith comes of hearing) We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. We testify of Jesus (tell the Gospel) to others when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Others hear the Gospel, and believe. Others receive the Holy Spirit, Others testify of Jesus; Still others hear the Gospel and believe. How else could the Gospel have spread like wildfire to the uttermost parts of the then-known world in a few short years in an agrarian, non-technical world like the first century? However, just because we live in the Age of Communication, does not lessen the need for us, those who have heard the Gospel and believe, to testify of Jesus. Faith still comes of hearing, and hearing of the Word of God. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we cannot help but tell others about the great salvation offered to us in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus. Not of Himself, not to the believer, not to the work of Christ in the believer, but of the historical and objective life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ("Jesus Christ and Him crucified"). Christ's act of salvation is the Gospel to which the Holy Spirit attests; He does not bear witness to our own "righteousnesses," which, of course, are as filthy rags. We are to test the "spirits." If they speak contrary to the law and the testimony of Jesus (the Gospel), we are not to heed that spirit. One who testifies of the believer gives witness to an imperfect, unfinished, sinful life that continues to fall short of the glory of God. One who testifies of Jesus gives witness to a perfect, complete, finished work of love, justice and mercy which saves the believer to the uttermost. I don't know about you, but "my hope is built on nothing less..." | ||
| Patti |
The Holy Spirit, when He comes, will guide us (and those who believe in Him) into all truth. We must allow Him to do His work, and not try to do it for Him. | ||
| Cindy |
Yes Patti! And this is a hard thing to do when we look at others' faults! We tend to give good advice, instead of pointing them to the Good News! I love what you posted earlier above: "We hear the Gospel, and believe. (Faith comes of hearing) We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. We testify of Jesus (tell the Gospel) to others when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Others hear the Gospel, and believe. Others receive the Holy Spirit, Others testify of Jesus; Still others hear the Gospel and believe." I want to PRAY and TRUST the Holy Spirit to work in others' lives! And in mine!! Grateful for His Perfect Work always, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Cindy, Where are you! You are missed. This issue of the Holy Spirit is a very important one, and one which, I feel, most Christians are a bit uncomfortable with. And the reason, I believe, they are uncomfortable with it is because they interpret the work of the Holy Spirit as mainly being manifest in a change of character. This is not biblical, however. The apostles, disciples, filled with the Holy Spirit, did not witness to their changed lives; they witnessed to the dead and risen Savior. I don't want to repeat everything that I posted above this, but I think it is very important to realize that the main role of the Holy Spirit in our lives (as well as in the lives of the disciples) was to testify of Jesus. We are told that when the Spirit comes, He will not testify of Himself. He will testify of Jesus. Our witness should never be to ourselves or anything that happens in us. Because of our sinful nature, when we fail (which we will), our witness will lose all of its relevance. Our witness should be always, continually, only Jesus Christ and Him crucified. We must constantly focus others (and ourselves) on the One Holy Lamb of God, for there is salvation in none other. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I don't know how to get you to understand what I believe?! Of course I don't believe that my deeds get me any closer to heaven. How could they! I was as close several years ago as I am today. That is the promise. My salvation is NOW and it is ETERNAL! My salvation has nothing to do with my deeds!!!!!!! My salvation has nothing to do with my deeds!!!!!! The Holy Spirit is promised to me as MY helper. Jesus says that we shouldn't be afraid and he will leave us a helper. Helper for what????! Help me to get to heaven? I don't think so! Help me to have a better salvation? I don't think so! My salvation is already perfect! In CHRIST! Repeat, IN CHRIST! He's there to help me past the rough spots! Obviously because my salvation is finished! Repeat, FINISHED!!!!!! What makes changes in a Christians character? The wind? The rain? The snow? Hard knocks? How about the HELPER Jesus left for us, THE HOLY SPIRIT. Do you think the HOLY SPIRIT is so anemic that He Can't work wonderful changes in our lives? The disciples did many wonderous miracles that drew the people to them so they could proclaim the gospel. Were the miracles performed to simply benifit the ones being miraclized? Or were they performed to draw people to want to know more about the God/Man, Jesus? Paul, the horrible Paul was know from one end of the existing populated area to the other for his cruelty. What did people say about him? Look at the miracles he performs? No! There was a dramatic change in his life. They saw his changed life! Who changed his life? If he had been saved and continued in the way he was before, would he have been the beacon he is? GOD CHANGES LIVES JESUS CHANGES LIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT CHANGES LIVES CHRISTIANIY CHANGES LIVES One the other hand, lives changed by our "own" willpower are shallow and count for NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING in the hereafter eternal bliss with the Lord that each and every believer has! If you life DOES NOT change when you "have" Jesus, one would "have" to wonder what you "have." Maryann | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Patti, This is a great topic. Last year when I first opened my Bible, I was listening to TBN and their take on the scriptures. I found myself reading the Bible all day and most of the night with fasination. I still read His Word all the time and am told that I read the Bible too much. Anyhow, while reading and listening to TBN, they (TBN) would keep mentioning the HOlY SPIRIT. One day while reading the Bible, as was my custom, it hit me,,WHAT OR WHO IS THIS HOLY SPIRIT? I had never been taught about this but also saw in scripture the words HOLY GHOST or HOLY SPIRIT. So one day, out of frustration in not knowing, I said out loud, "What is this Holy Spirit thing?" Well, it seems from that time on, I'll have a question on my mind or in my heart and sure enough, I get the answer to my question. It also occurred to me after a few months of reading the Bible that it had to be the Holy Spirit that lead me to reading the Bible. I firmly believe that with all my heart and am thankful beyond words. Currently I am listening to the Jehovah Witnesses take on the Holy Spirit. Apparently, they don't believe the Holy Spirit is personal but an impersonal force. Something like that. I cannot help but believe that the Holy Spirit is not just a force. What are your opinions/thoughts? God Bless you all, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Denise. I think that there is more confusion about the Holy Spirit than any other single issue in Christendom, except perhaps the Gospel. Did you read my three-part post above? If not, I would like very much for you to read it and give me feedback on it. Also, I don't want to be redundant, so I will wait for your reply. God bless! Grace and peace Patti | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, I just wrote one of the longest posts I've ever written and zapped it out accidently. I am, needless to say, quite upset at all that thought going to thin air. But then again, maybe it's just as well as it was rather confusing, even for me. I read your three part post and really learned a great deal. I can see that the Holy Spirit seems to be a personal Spirit vs a force with no "Him" or "He" attached to Him. Since He is referred to as He or Him in my Bible as well. I am glad to learn that it was the Holy Spirit or I should put that as, it IS the Holy Spirit causing me to not be able to keep my mouth shut as far as telling how Jesus came as a man, lived a sinless life for us, died for us and rose again and is coming back to redeem us. I also believe that this same Holy Spirit of God directed me to read my Bible after 40 years of not reading it and then out of the blue picking it up and now simply cannot put His Word down. Sometimes, I feel as though I'll burst when I'm in a situation and cannot speak of the Gospel. It has become so much of me that to speak of other things seems ridiculous and very boring. I'm not relating to well in areas of shopping, going out or even what style of clothing is in these days. As a matter of fact, I don't really do these things nor care to. Yes, I do grocery shop. I have become captured by this God of ours and all my thoughts are just as captured as words couldn't adequately describe. I am not complaining mind you, as a matter of fact, I'm very awestruck and grateful. Oh I'm not sure I haven't lost my mind. That thought has come to me with serious consideration at that. There are others who have questioned my reality or saneness or indeed consider me to be quite insane. Yes, something has happened to me and this something is God. That is what I do know. Now as for the Holy Spirit's leading in my life, I am not sure what that constitutes but can say if He has any power over ones life then this must be an answer. One thing I am quite confident in is that we have a God that is most powerful. Some months back while walking to the store, I thought to myself 'how would I explain the Trinity to someone should they ask'. At this came a thousand thoughts with no real conclusion other than it is far above my thoughts. However, it must be in the realm of our understanding if others can understand. Consequently I must be the problem. So, here I am with not so clear of a understanding as I would like. Especially should someone ask me about this. Hence, I'm here. I have been studying with the Jehovah's Witnessess so I can try to hear from their own mouths what they believe. They and I have weekly ..oh, I'll call them debates regarding the Trinity (among other topics of course). My frustration is not being able to prove to them scripturally that there is a Trinity. In other words, they believe there is the Father and there is the Son (created Son at that) but as to the Holy Spirit, they believe that to be an 'it'. I cannot believe in an 'it'. This is where I fail to show myself approved. I make an awful teacher as I am not quite understanding this Holy Spirit either. Unless of course, the Holy Spirit is a personal Entity which is in part of the One entire Godhead that encompasses all three. Simply put, One God, three functions of God within. But One God. Please understand that I am uneducated in this matter so do not let me confuse anyone reading this post. Keep in mind, that in the explaining of the Trinity which includes the Holy Spirit, I am not able. This is where I need furthering in my learning speedily as I am conducting these debates and am unprepared. Any help besides what you have given me in the scripture will certainly be welcomed. May the Lord Bless you, Denise | ||
| Cas |
Hi Denise, I am curious as to why you are studying with the Jehovah Wittness's? I always recommend www.equip.org, for Biblically based information. I don't know if you are familiar with the Christian Research Insitiute, Hank Hannegraff hosts the radio show Bible Answer Man. You could also get information from CRI on Jehovah Wittness beliefs. JW's.http://www.emunet.com.au/~chiswick/ This is the website from a former JW that used to post on this forum (or maybe another one?) anyway you may find it interesting. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Cas, The reason for my stuying with them is to know, from their own mouths, what they believe or don't believe. Also, I know that the JWs are an offshoot of the SDAs so I need to compare notes as I have, about 5 months ago, left the SDA Church. I hear so much bad mouthing of Catholics that this is another religion I want to hear from, but from their own mouths. I cannot have contempt prior to investigation. I am not of that mindset. So I listen to what they have to say. However, this does not mean that I am at all interested in becoming a JW or a Catholic. Infact, I have no interest at all in a denominational name. I know that I love our Lord Jesus Christ and am seeking Truth. But also, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to teach and make disciples. He surely wouldn't want me sitting with this Truth and not speaking to others that are being led astray. At least I cannot do that in good conscience. The Truth will set us free and sooo many people believe absolute heresies. It's sad and it's something that I cry over as well. So, I do what I can, however inexperienced. I know many people that are following EGW or Joseph Smith or others similar to them and in many of those teachings is deception. I know, I was an SDA, although not baptized into the Church. I hope this helps you understand my position. Keep in mind too, that I don't go out looking for people. It's been strange but they are coming to my door. Including SDAs. The Truth, or what I know of it, cannot stay inside of me. I do have CRI and many other websites that help but somewhere in all that is a clear understanding of the Trinity. This is what I am seeking. How can I teach if I don't know. Reading theologically sound sites is a good thing, but I still need this Trinity put into a simpler explanation, IF there is one. My intelligence is not as bright as most on this board. Infact, sometimes in reading, it goes right over me. I'm a real uneducated, simple person. I hope this helps but if not feel free to ask more questions or even enlighten me if you will. God Bless you Cas, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Denise! I just wrote one of the longest posts I've ever written and zapped it out accidently. I am, needless to say, quite upset at all that thought going to thin air. I have done the same thing several times! Aggravating, isn't it??? I finally learned to write my long posts in MS Word and then cut and paste them. I read your three part post and really learned a great deal. I can see that the Holy Spirit seems to be a personal Spirit vs a force with no "Him" or "He" attached to Him. Since He is referred to as He or Him in my Bible as well. True. I don't see that as the major issue concerning the Holy Spirit, however. For me, the main issue is that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Entity with a unique purpose. It was the work of Jesus Christ to fulfill all of the law and the prophets in our behalf and to die as the propitiation for our sin. In every aspect of His saving work, He is our substitute. He did what we could never do. Sometimes Christians confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit. They confound the saving work of Christ for us with the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We are saved by the work of Christ alone; it is the Holy Spirit's job, as you can see in the texts above, to reveal to us Christ's saving work and to empower us to believe and to tell others about our full salvation in Jesus Christ. This is evident in that the apostles and disciples did not testify to their changed lives. Paul had as dramatic a conversion as anyone in history, yet he only mentions it in passing. His focus is the perfect and completed work of salvation of Jesus Christ. So many Christians and Christian groups focus on the lives of the believers, but, as you can see from the texts given above, every time someone in the NT is "filled with the Holy Spirit," the result is that they testified to the crucified and risen Savior. I am glad to learn that it was the Holy Spirit or I should put that as, it IS the Holy Spirit causing me to not be able to keep my mouth shut as far as telling how Jesus came as a man, lived a sinless life for us, died for us and rose again and is coming back to redeem us. Amen! You are so right. As Jesus said to Peter: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." And you have no need to feel funny about declaring that the Holy Spirit is enabling you to testify of Jesus, because you are not testifying to your own worthiness; you are proclaiming the worthiness of the Lamb! In fact, just the act of proclaiming salvation by the merits of our Lord is an act of acknowledgment that we are incapable of adding anything to Christ's perfect and unrepeatable saving act for us. I also believe that this same Holy Spirit of God directed me to read my Bible after 40 years of not reading it and then out of the blue picking it up and now simply cannot put His Word down. Sometimes, I feel as though I'll burst when I'm in a situation and cannot speak of the Gospel. It has become so much of me that to speak of other things seems ridiculous and very boring. I'm not relating to well in areas of shopping, going out or even what style of clothing is in these days. As a matter of fact, I don't really do these things nor care to. Yes, I do grocery shop. I have become captured by this God of ours and all my thoughts are just as captured as words couldn't adequately describe. Praise the Lord! I am not complaining mind you, as a matter of fact, I'm very awestruck and grateful. I understand. I have long found it amazing that God chose to reveal His great salvation to me. I was SDA for 24 years and never had a clue that Jesus is my full salvation. I kept trying to do it for myself. It is like someone coming along and paying up all of your debts in full, such is the freedom that comes of understanding the Gospel. And who asks nothing in return except that you trust that He will pay all of your bills for the rest of your life, and then set you up in His mansion when your life is done. Of course we must tell others! And this is what the Holy Spirit empowers us to do. No wonder the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. It is only as we rest in the finished work of Christ in our behalf that we can get past our neediness which keeps us in consternation and frustration, knowing that no matter how hard we try, nothing we do is good enough. Oh I'm not sure I haven't lost my mind. That thought has come to me with serious consideration at that. But what a way to go! May we all be insane with you!! There are others who have questioned my reality or saneness or indeed consider me to be quite insane. Yes, something has happened to me and this something is God. That is what I do know. Now as for the Holy Spirit's leading in my life, I am not sure what that constitutes but can say if He has any power over ones life then this must be an answer. One thing I am quite confident in is that we have a God that is most powerful. Some months back while walking to the store, I thought to myself 'how would I explain the Trinity to someone should they ask'. At this came a thousand thoughts with no real conclusion other than it is far above my thoughts. However, it must be in the realm of our understanding if others can understand. Consequently I must be the problem. So, here I am with not so clear of a understanding as I would like. Maybe I can help a bit. The Trinity is important in that one does not confuse the roles of each Personality of the Godhead. God the Father reigned in heaven while Jesus came to earth to work out man's salvation and to reveal the Father to mankind. The Holy Spirit, poured out after the ascension of Christ, works in each individual believer's heart to convict them of their sinfulness and to convince them of the efficacy of the saving work of Jesus Christ. It is important to differentiate the work of Jesus from the work of the Holy Spirit. 1. It is the work of Jesus Christ that accomplished salvation. His work was perfected in His absolutely sinless flesh. 2. This is not the duty of the Holy Spirit. (Some people think that the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is actually a part of the saving grace, but our salvation is an accomplished fact.) The work of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing work that is never finished because He works inside the hearts of sinful flesh. His main duties are: 1. to convict us of our great need, or sinfulness and inability to help ourselves, and 2. reveal the fullness and perfection of the saving work of Jesus Christ for us. Hence, I'm here. I have been studying with the Jehovah's Witnessess so I can try to hear from their own mouths what they believe. As long as you are firmly founded on the Rock, then a lot of good can come from this, not only for them (your witnessing to them) but for yourself. It was only when I began debating SDAs that I really began to study and began to see many things clearly myself. One thing I have found: The Bible is absolutely reliable. Whenever SDAs pop up one of their beloved proof-texts, I merely go to that reference and do some studying in and around that particular verse. Nine times out of ten the answers lie right there in the Scripture. They and I have weekly ..oh, I'll call them debates regarding the Trinity (among other topics of course). My frustration is not being able to prove to them scripturally that there is a Trinity. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, perhaps it would be easier if you concentrate on the Gospel of salvation by the substitionary life and death of Jesus Christ for us. The book of Romans reveals it very clearly: "For by the obedience of the One are the many made righteous," for example. The reason I suggest focusing on the Gospel alone is that if you do not agree on the Gospel (and JWs will NOT agree with you on the Gospel), then you have little foundation upon which to discuss other issues. In other words, they believe there is the Father and there is the Son (created Son at that) but as to the Holy Spirit, they believe that to be an 'it'. I cannot believe in an 'it'. This is where I fail to show myself approved. I make an awful teacher as I am not quite understanding this Holy Spirit either. Unless of course, the Holy Spirit is a personal Entity which is in part of the One entire Godhead that encompasses all three. Simply put, One God, three functions of God within. But One God. I think that is pretty orthodox doctrine. Please understand that I am uneducated in this matter so do not let me confuse anyone reading this post. Ah, but His strength is made perfect in our weakness! Remember, Jesus chose as His disciples a ragtag bunch of fishermen. Keep in mind, that in the explaining of the Trinity which includes the Holy Spirit, I am not able. This is where I need furthering in my learning speedily as I am conducting these debates and am unprepared. Any help besides what you have given me in the scripture will certainly be welcomed. Just remember one thing, Denise. Ever doctrine stems from one common root. That is, what that person or organization believes about salvation. The Gospel that we are made right with God only by believing in Christ's saving act for us must be the plumbline by which you measure all other doctrine. Even if you get confused on issues, such as the Trinity (and who hasn't? It is a very nebulous doctrine.), just remember to keep upholding the worthiness of the Lamb of God. Jesus is our full and complete salvation. We can add nothing of merit to His great saving work for us. God bless you in your studies! Please let me know how it goes. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, Thank you for your feedback. I do need to say that no matter what topic I study with other denominations, the Gospel always seems to come out of me. I don't plan for that to happen always but every time my mouth starts just spewing out the great Salvation we have in Jesus Christ. I have to chuckle because usually I'm not even realizing that these same people heard it last week, until after they are gone. Then I realize, oh I went off about how Jesus died for us to save us, again. I mean, you would think they would tell me to shut up or something but instead it seems their eyes are beginning to lighten up and they keep coming back. So this is just as I thought, the Holy Spirit working through me. I knew something had to be the answer to this compelling force that's causing me to proclaim the Gospel. I had a good guess that it must be the Holy Spirit but again, I thought or think I might be half crazy too..chuckle. Either way, crazy or not, the Gospel is Truth. I do have to say though that it matters very much whether one believes that the Holy Spirit is just an impersonal force or a third part of the Godhead. See, JWs don't believe in the Trinity. They believe that a Trinitarian God represents the pagan gods in as far as having 3 parts. So it matters much in my estimation, however inexperienced I am in these matters. Anyhow, I thank you for your explanation and encouragement. We should all praise His Name! I'll still be asking more questions I'm sure. God Bless you Patti, In His Mighty Name, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Denise. Don't get me wrong. I do not believe that the Trinity is an unimportant issue in the least. What I meant was it was more important to understand the specific role of each member of the Godhead than to try and understand the exact way in which the Three in One are unified, yet distinct. Don't let the JWs wiggle off the hook concerning the deity of Jesus Christ, though. This is another truth vital to our salvation. Just keep throwing John 1 and Hebrews 1:1-3 to them. God bless! Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Denise, I ran across a couple of my good "trinitarian" books yesterday. I will see if I can remember which box they got stuffed back into!;-(( One book is an easy reader and the other is a bit deeper. I can give you the titles and you can buy them or e-write me and I'll send them to you. gogold@quixnet.net I'm going to probably disappear for the weekend as I'm having company. Maryann | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, It's good to hear that you find understanding Trinity important. For a minute there, you scared me! :) As far as the Diety of Jesus Christ, this is another issue we (me and the JWs) are disagreeing on. I believe with everything in me that Jesus Christ is and should be complete Diety. Hope that made sense. I'm not good with the theological terms. The JWs, however well intended they are, believe He is Michael the archangel (sound familiar?) and also that Jesus was Father God's (or Jehovah) first 'creation'. Needless to say, at this I shutter. I actually get upset at both of these heresies. So that too is another doctine we are studying together each week. Thank you for your working with me on this and being patient. Also, thank you for the words of wisdom. God Bless you always, Denise P.S. Btw, it seems for every scripture I pull out of God's Word concerning Jesus Christ's full diety, they have the same scripture with alot of greek background to go with it. This is why I'm getting into the Greek, so I can better equip myself to defend the Truth. Greek and Hebrew languages are very intriguing and complex. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Maryann, Thank you so much for the offer and I will accept. I'll send an email tonight or tomorrow with my address. I could use all the help I can get. Enjoy your weekend! May the Lord give you safe passage. God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Denise, I understand about the Greek. SDAs (and Catholics and others who believe in another gospel) are good at pulling out the lexicons in order to try and disprove that the Scriptures really mean what they say. They have a hard time getting around those two references I gave you, though, at least while maintaining a degree of intellectual integrity: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Hebrews 1:1-3 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. John 8:58 I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!" John 10:30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Just wanted to give you a simple "outline" of a study that I have been doing on the Holy Spirit. The short of it is: The Holy Spirit does 7 things for us at salvation: 1. Efficacious grace-the ministry of the Holy Spirit whereby the faith of a spiritually dead person is acknowledged and made effective for salvation. (Consider this: a physical dead person can not respond to a physical alive person, neither can we being spiritual dead respond to the spiritually alive. The Holy Spirit does this for us. That's why Ephesians 2:28,19 says, "For by grace our you saved, through faith-and this is not of your self, it is a gift from God" What this scripture is saying that is not of ourselves is the faith, the faith that saves us is a gift from God. Now that's grace!!!!) 2. Regeneration-the birth of the human spirit, by which is the only means for our understanding the word of God (John 3: 1-16) 3. Baptism (of the Spirit)- this places us in union with Christ. Acts 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:5 4. Indwelling-the Holy Spirit indwells us and provides a temple for Jesus. This is something the OT believers never had. (Rom. 8:9m 1 Cor. 6:19,20) 5. Places us inside God's plan (filling us with the Spirit)where we have the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to control our mind, this gives us the power that Christ had on this earth. He was what you might call a "prototype" of the ministry of the Holy Spirit controlling the mind, thoughts, actions, etc....The "prototype" was available to the "general public" at Pentecost. Problem is unlike Christ we decide we can do better than God and we take back over the control and mess everything up. 6. Seals us to the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30 and 2 Cor.1:22) 7. Distribution of Spiritual gifts- (1 Cor. 12:11) None of the ministry of the Spirit produces any kind of emotion, ecstatics, etc. (Rom 16:17,18; 2 Cor. 6:11,12) We don't get the gift of tongues, if you read scripture in context, the gift of speaking in tongues is directed specifically for Gentiles to preach the gospel to the Jews. Tongues has not been a spiritual gift since around 70 AD. Just thought I'd add that, I know it's a little off the subject. All the things that the Holy Spirit does for us at salvation are permanent except for #5 (placing us inside God's divine plan for us-filling us with the Spirit)this ministry of the Holy Spirit is based upon our own volition. We make choices all the time. Each time we choose to sin, we are out of the divine plan-we are no longer spirit filled. But getting back in is simple-all we have to do is acknowledge our sin and we are back inside the plan of God for our lives. The one really profound thing that I have come away with from this study on the Holy Spirit is: our spiritually is an absolute. We are either fully spiritual or we are fully carnal. There is no such thing as being 70% spiritual and 30% carnal. (I John 3:4-9) We are either in the light or in the darkness, the Bible never speaks of us "standing in the shade". No. It clearly says we are to "walk in the light". Not run, hop or skip. Walk. Precise instructions. Sad thing is that most of us in our Christian "walk in the light" want to be in the "shade" so we do the best thing we can come up with, a "veil over the eyes". We only want to see part of the light not the whole thing! I am more and more amazed every day at the grace of God directed toward man, the more I study, the more I find myself thinking...he is truly a Great God to even care what happens to us! We are like a disgusting fly that lives in the garbage (and we like the garbage we live in) but God in his righteousness and holiness places us in union with his beloved, uniquely born Son and makes us heirs with him, while we are still flies preferring to live in the garbage. Now,what would you do to a disgusting, nasty fly if is was within your reach? God, in his amazing grace, offered the "fly" eternal life if only he would believe in His Son, Jesus Christ! | ||
| Terry |
Lori, can you show me, using Scripture, how you come to the below conclusion: Lori--"All the things that the Holy Spirit does for us at salvation are permanent except for #5 (placing us inside God's divine plan for us-filling us with the Spirit)this ministry of the Holy Spirit is based upon our own volition. We make choices all the time. Each time we choose to sin, we are out of the divine plan-we are no longer spirit filled. But getting back in is simple-all we have to do is acknowledge our sin and we are back inside the plan of God for our lives." Terry--How can we, "who have died to sin," (Romans 6:2-7)choose to sin? How can we, who have Christ living in us, (Galatians 2:20) be outside of the "devine plan?" How can we sin, when Christ put an end to sin? (Hebrews 8:26-28) In Christ's love, Terry P.S. I love how you put this all together. Great job, Lori! | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Lori, I thank you for helping me to understand how to completely understand all of this or better yet to explain it. You have put alot of time into this as have others and that's why I really get alot out of this forum. No questions seem to be turned down, but rather they are answered. I'm currently still working on putting together all this information so I can better be prepared the next time I have a study with the JWs. There is plenty of evidence from this forum, from Scripture, regarding the Holy Spirit and His part. This is all good news and now I have a much clearer understanding and am grateful. Thank you Lori. God Bless you Lori, Denise | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lori, It's really good to see one of our favorite theologians show her face again;-)) Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Just thought I'd comment on the gift of tongues which Lori mentioned above. By the way, Lori, that was an awesome study! You spent a lot of time! After going through I Corinthians in our Friday eve FAF group and spending six weeks on chapters 12-14 (the gifts of the Spirit and the Love chapter which is tied into the gifts dsicussion), I've come to the conclusion that the gift of tongues really is something that can happen at any timeóbut not at our command. It's distributed, like all the gifts, according to the sovereign will of God. First, at Pentecost (Acts 2) the gift of tongues first came on Jews. Jews from all over the then-known world had come to Jerusalem for Passover and stayed for Pentecost which was 50 days later. After they heard the apostles speaking in their own languages, they returned to their Jewish communities as brand-new Christ-followers! Then, as the weeks passed, the apostles were astonished because they realized that the new Gentile converts were also receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues! According to I Cor. 14, there is a gift of tongues that is, apparently, an ecstatic utterance that is not a know human language. Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all of them. He further said that when he spoke in tongues his spirit was praising God but his mind was not. A human language comes from the mind. Additionally, he said that this gift of tongues should never be practiced in public unless an interpreter is present when a believer praises God in a tongue. He even said that no more than two or three should so speak in a given meeting. Clearly Paul spoke against mass tongue-speaking. But the gift of tongues does seem to be a gift God still grants to his people. I have not personally spoken in tongues, but I know a Godly spiritual role-model who does. I would have never known this person spoke in tongues if I hadn't heard this person personally say so. This is not a person given to sensational behavior or a central focus on ecstatic gifts. As I said, I would never have guessed if I hadn't heard the statement with my own ears. I believe that we must not short-sell the gifts of the Spirit or the Trinity that grants them! I have to admit I was unsure about the whole issue of tongues before we studied these chapters inductively and in detail this summer. If you're curious about what we studied, you can check out the studies and the study notes on this website under the Studies button on the home page. But your study is awesome, Lori. Thank you for sharing it! Praising God for loving us and sealing us with his Spirit, Colleen | ||
| Lori |
Terry, The answer to your question is based upon the fact of the absolute of Spirituality. We are either in light or in darkness. You never read about semi-light or semi-darkness in reference to the believer or the unbeliever. I John 1:5- "God is light, in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him (we can be part of the royal family of God and still not "fellowship" with them, just as you can be part of your family and make the choice to not fellowship with them) yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. (Notice is says "do not live by the truth", they have the truth but do not live in it)vs. 7, But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP......" Another passage is in Romans 6, consider this: IF as a "dead to sin" believer in Christ Jesus we have no ability to sin, then why are we exhorted (vs.12-)"do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey it's evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, AS INSTRUMENTS OF WICKEDNESS, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death unto life; and offer the parts of your body to him as insturments of righteousness." ---remember this is following the passage where Paul has told them "we died to sin", but he never says we are incapable of sinning. Notice Romans 6:4, "we were therefore buried with him ....in order that.....WE TOO MAY LIVE A NEW LIFE." Notice the wording. It doesn't say we will, it says we may. In verse,6 is says, "that we should no longer be slaves to sin, because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." And we are no longer slaves, before we accepted Christ we had no other choice but to be controlled by the sin nature. However, with our acceptance of Christ came the "benefits" of being his heir and one of those "benefits" is the New Spirit. We have spiritual freedom! But that doesn't mean we won't make the choice to go back to the ways of slavery, we aren't slaves but we can still choose to live that life. The believer is also warned not to quench the spirit in Eph. 4:30. (If we are incapable of walking outside of the divine life style then how could we possibly quench the spirit? Obviously we can do this and that is why we are given the warning not to.) Read Ephesians 4:17-5:18, this again is speaking to believers, Ephesians 4:17, "So I tell you this, and INSIST ON IT in the Lord, that you MUST NO LONGER live as Gentiles (unbelievers)do, in the futility of their thinking (they have human viewpoint, we are to live with divine viewpoint) They are DARKENED in their understanding....." (vs. 22) " you were taught....to put off the old self" (vs. 23)"to be made new in the attitude of the mind" (vs.24)"to put on the new self" --the following verse go on to state different things that prevent us from putting on this new attitude of the mind, the new self--(vs 30) "do not grieve the Holy Spirit" --the the next verse list things that we need to rid ourselves of so that we won't grieve the spirit. Eph. 5:1,2 "Be imitators of God"...."live a life of love. ---more things are listed that hinder us from achieving this new life (5:8) "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light." ---If is was impossible for us to live outside of the Spirit once it was given, there would be no need for these commands to "live like children of the light", "be filled with the Spirit" Eph. 5:15-18,--We must be careful how we walk, we must not be ignorant, we must be wise, we must not be foolish. All of these are spoken to the believers..........we can be children of God and still agents doing the devils work!! (Romans 6) The question is do will we stay that way? Or do we become "instruments of righteousness again"? "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves" 1 John 1:8 All we have to do to get back within the Spirit is name our sins to the Father "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just........and will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9 Lori | ||
| Lori |
Colleen, I understand your position on the "tongues" and I will check out the study you are refering to. --However at the moment, I will simply have to say, I disagree. I don't have the time, right now, to share with you the study that I have done on the tongues, but that can be a new thread at a later date, right? For all truth Satan has a counterfeit to distract God's people from being productive for his purpose. Satan can't take us from God once we believe in the Son, but he can make us useless, unproductive Christians. I believe that tongues, just like the Sabbath, WAS a bonafide truth for a certain group of people at a certain time. The devil has taken these pieces of truth, lifted them out of context and "made churches out of them". He then has taken the Christians out of their spiritual walk by distracting them with a counterfeit, thus making them useless as "instruments of God". Once a Christian becomes religious he is as useless to the plan of God as a Pharisee! | ||
| Max |
Hello all, Just finished reading this thread for the first time. And I am impressed with the good, thoughtful Bible study, prayer and Scripture-based discussion that has been going on. Blessings to all involved. Now I have this question: Using Scripture and Scripture alone, how does one distinguish testifying of Jesus with "the hand writing words" from "the hand giving a cup of cold water to a hot and thirsty soul"? They are both human behaviors, are they not? And I would like to make this observation as well: The New Testament devotes at least as much if not MORE column inches to fruits of the Spirit that have to do with Godly living as to fruits of the Spirit that have to do with with Godly gospel proclamation. I fail to find in Scripture any distinction between words and actions when it comes to witnessing for the gospel of Christ's grace in our lives. Am I wrong? Max of the Cross |
