| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
Sherry, The truth is that the law was never dichotomized in the Scripture; there is never a distinction made between "ceremonial" and "moral" law. The law was one complete ball of wax. In Hebrews 10, we are told that the law was a shadow of the Reality to come. Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Now before you say that this refers to the "ceremonial" aspect only, please notice the context of this chapter: this about the perfecting of the believer. 2 If it could, (make us perfect, that is) would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. If the sacrificial system had a literal innate power to remove sin, then the believer would have been perfected after a single sacrifice, and would no longer feel guilt, or in New Covenant terms, feel his need of a Savior. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, Instead of an actual remedy for sin, the sacrifices served to make the people aware of its constant presence in their lives, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews is such a wonderful book. I never really appreciated it until the past year or so. In preveious chapters, we read about how Christ is not only the fulfillment of, but is greatly superior to the prophets, the sabbath, the Aaronic priesthood. This chapter tells how He is superior to the law. The law could never deal with the sin problem. Here the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that, just as Paul says, the law came, and he died, so the sacrifice system did not take away guilt; in fact, just like the "moral" aspects of which Paul speaks, it promoted guilt. Paul says, Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So you see the sacrificial system served the same purpose as the rest of the law: It produced an acute awareness of sin in the life. Back to Hebrews 10: 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'" 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. This passage speaks of being "made holy." Holiness cannot be found without "moral" implications. The point of this passage and the Romans passage is that no one can be made holy by any law. We are made holy only by the "sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." The shadows (the law--all of it) cannot begin to compare with the revealed Reality. Whereas the law brought guilt and death* (though many wish to believe that it it brings life), the Reality brought holiness to all who will believe. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." We see clearly in this verse that the writer of the book of Hebrews is not speaking merely of the "ceremonial" law. It would make no sense to say that the law that Christ writes in our hearts is the sacrificial system. It is the entire law; it is even more than the entire law; it is everything that the Lord requires us to do; it is sinless perfection of character. And what is this based upon? The forgiveness of sin: 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Christ is the fulfillment of all of the law. "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 10:4. Not just the "ceremonial" law, but the whole ball of wax: the sacrificial system, circumcision, the health laws, the feasts, our moral duty to God and man. And the sabbath. In short, there is only one kind of righteousness that we can possess: the spotless perfection of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the only righteousness that is truly righteousness. You know what Isaiah says about all of our own feeble attempts to be holy. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." But Christ provided the sacrifice that truly takes away sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. I can add nothing of value to those last 2 verses. They say it all. Grace and peace, Patti * Not that the law is bad. Romans tells us that: 10:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. | ||
| Sherry |
You're speaking of the same grace I was speaking of Patti. I said we cannot be saved by the law...period. And it says his law was written on our hearts...to me that means this: Now I don't need to obsess with keeping the commandments by looking at them to measure myself up to, but I do obey them because it is right to worship the Lord with all my heart, it is right and part of the law of Love to not kill,(and as Jesus pointed out, my feelings to kill as well)...and the Bible does point out that the Tablets of Stone were placed in the ark of the covenant - God's throne room....not the written code and laws...that isn't dichotemy? I still obey my Lord and Savior, but now I can focus my eyes on Him, knowing that my sins are indeed covered in full from beginning to end, and that doesn't give me freedom to do whatever I please. But now I am freed from guilt and know that I am saved through faith and faith alone. Whatever commands I keep that are true, pure, and good, I also keep by faith, for as you say from Scripture "our righteousness is as filthy rags". | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Sherry, Enjoyed reading what you wrote. But I have a few questions that need answering. You write, "The Bible does point out that the Tablets of Stone were placed in the ark of the covenant - God's throne room....not the written code and laws." Are you saying that the Tablets of Stone were not written? Not part of the "the written code and laws"? I think they were written with God's own finger? Am I wrong? You also wrote, "Now I don't need to obsess with keeping the commandments by looking at them to measure myself up to, but I do obey them." Do you obey the law (stated in Deuteronomy 22:11) that you shall not wear clothing that contains both wool and linen? Do you obey the law (stated in Exodus 16:29) that says you are not to leave your house on the seventh day? If you go to church on Sabbath, are you not breaking this law of God that you claim to obey? You know that there is no "Sabbath day's journey" allowed in Scripture. That was one of the "traditions of men" that Jesus so often denounced. So if you drive to church on Sabbath, how is it that you are keeping this law? I'm not just trying to make things hard for you, Sherry, I really do think your position is inconsistent with whole reality of the new covenant. Yours in Christ, Jude | ||
| sherry |
Well first off, explain to me why the Law was placed in the ark of the covenant? And Christ sits at the right hand of God....they sit over the law...Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements for our transgression of the law...he doesn't take it out of the ark and throw it away. That isn't in the Bible anywhere. And yes, the law was written by God's finger on the Stone...but not the written code of laws that had to do with cleanliness (holiness) before God, symbolic entirely..just as the wearing clothes that contain wool and linen is part of that. I'm not stupid about where those things came from. I find your theology inconsistent as well, Jude. Did I come out of the church to listen to people twist it again that have left the church? There's a lack of integrity when you propose the text from Exodus 16:29. You and I both know that through the history of the Bible, this not leaving your home at all was not "kept" as part of the law. For whatever reason, God proposed it to them at this place with the manna. Evidence shows clearly that not traveling outside your own home was not the case in later references to the Sabbath. And again, Jesus shows a better way of keeping it still ...from the heart, and not from a whole list of do's and don'ts. Again I stand whole and complete in Him and Him alone - who was and is and is to come. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bless you, Sherry, I think it's time for me to take a "time out" from our dialog on this Discussion. I CAN be wrong, you know! With you in Christ's grace alone, Jude | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, the purpose of the law is still there. But what was it's purpose? According to Paul in Gal 3:24 the law was a paidagogos. Likely in your Bible that word is translated as "tutor" or "schoolmaster". Neither of those words quite fits the concept though. The "paidagogos" in the Greco-Roman society was a household slave to whom was entrusted the care of the masters son. He went everywhere with the child. His job was to take the child to the one who was actually the child's teacher. However, when the child reached maturity, his job was ended. In v. 23 Paul sets up this train of thought by telling us that "before faith came" we were "kept under the law" until the faith would afterwards be revealed. In v. 25 we are told that after faith has come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. So those words on stone were given to lead us to the true teacher who is Jesus Christ. Now that we are in Him, we have the Holy Spirit living in us to teach us. The ten rules were very limited. They didn't cover such things as prejudging people, having a quick temper, being prejudiced, praying for those who mistreat you, for instance. They didn't reach down into the heart attitudes that we were carrying. No matter how hard we try to obey, we can never measure up. We can never be perfect as the dictates of the law demands. Since we have come to Christ, we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us to go far deeper than the words on tablets could. We don't look at the letters on stone that tell us not to murder, instead we have the Spirit living in us prompting us when we get angry with someone that "I love them, let me love them through you." The difference is that our time and energy is spent in spending time with God, praying, getting into the Word. Now we do what we do because of who He has made us to be inside. We don't do the things we do to to be that person. Our actions flow out of the changed heart and mind. The time and effort is spent in building our relationship with the one who gradually makes the heart changes rather than the effort being in our outward actions. This difference is why we are told that we are dead to the law. We cannot be married to our new spouse Christ and still be hanging out with the old spouse. All we can get from the old spouse is condemnation because we can never quite measure up to his demands. When we live in Christ there is no condemnation for us. Sure we will mess up, but instead of condemning us and putting us back at square one, he steps in and brings conviction that here is something that needs work. Picks us up, dusts us off, and gets us pointed in the right direction again. The difference is relationship as opposed to obediance. | ||
| sherry |
Do you mean the emphasis is relationship rather than obedience, right? You're not saying obedience doesn't matter. I certainly agree and understand the focus being Christ...when it said the law was written in my heart, it was like "Wow"...I can honest to God not be looking at the law to make sure I'm doing all perfectly...I just look unto Jesus, and these things will become fruit...yes, instead of condemning us and putting us back to square one. Exactly. That is exactly what I have been experiencing lately...condemnation has fallen off, and when I sin, I know I can come safely and even boldly before the throne of Grace because He loves me and all my sins were covered at the cross. I'm able to dust myself off quickly, and move on.....it is truly a beautiful experience of freedom in Christ. | ||
| Bruce H |
Sherry Why did God leave out of the Holy Ten Commandments the Two great Commandments in the Law Matt 22:36 Cammandment # 418 (IN the book of law) Deut 6:5 you shall love the lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind, and Commandment #243 (In the book of law) Lev 19:18 You shall love your neighbor as yourself? Why did God put the Two Great Commandments to the side of the Ark and not inside? Sherry you have the freedom to worship on any day you want, especially the Sabbath!!!!!!!! Sherry I have studied this Sabbath issue in great detail. In my studies I was really blessed buy it I have a greater understanding of God's love then I did before. My advice to you is to study this Sabbath Issue both pro and con and remember 1John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you AND YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACH YOU; but the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is NOT A LIE, and just as it taught you, you will abide in Him. Trust God to show you truth remember (Luke 11:12-13) if you ask for and egg will he offer you and scorpion? I have been trying to get a hold of you I could not hear your address very clearly on the phone I will call you again today. Bruce Heinrich BH BH | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Guys, Wonderful discussion! Keep it up. Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
George Here is a little story from Bible thumping Bruce. Tale of Two Dogs I have two wonderful dogs. Napoleon and Dodger, Napoleon is a big German Shepard and Dodger is a bushy Akida. I jog a lot and i started bringing the dogs with me but I had a problem if i ran with the Akida he would always stay right with me, he might go out into the bushes or chase a rabbit or bird but he would always run and catch up with me no matter what. Napoleon on the other hand would stay with me for a little way but then he would run out into the grove and somtimes I would not see him for two to three days, this is a problem because he is a big dog and I worry what he may do. So I just started joging only with my Akida, and would leave Napoleon alone at home. When we would leave he would cry and cry and it would break my heart. Now I go jogging with both dogs doger without a leash and Napoloen with a leash. One day I was jogging with the two Dogs and my daughter and she made this statment. She said hay Dad look at the two dogs one dog which is Napoleon who is tied to me by a leash and the other is free to wonder around but still always comes back. She said the leash is the Law and the Dogs are the two Covenants, She said look Napoleon needs the Law (or Old COVENANT) for without it he wanders off and if I want to bring him with me I have to tie him up or he will run away. Dodger on the other had is free from the leash or Law and is a New Covenant dog, She noted that Dodger even though he strayed at times he always came back and was dependable. Now we FAF's have to remember that some people need a leash that freedom is scarry, but we must remember that God and the Holy Spirit are in the Freedom camp and let us give God a chance to free others when they are ready. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bruce, What a wonderful observation from your daughter! You see, one can go to school in the lions den if they have the Lord with them. You've done a great job with her! You are an inspiration to me! By the way, my daughter wants to know if your house is blue or tan? Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, Praise God for your assurance of grace and freedom! He is continuing to lead you to truth. I'd like to make an observation about the law in the Old Covenant. What Lydell said was very good. I'd just like to add that during the time of Israel, the presence of God dwelled in the camp or city of Jerusalem in the form of a cloud that rested over the Most Holy Place and covered the tabernacle or temple. All Israel knew that they were God's people and enjoyed his continuing presence by the fact of the cloud of his glory in the center of their encampment or city. Further, the High Priest could only go into the Most Holy Place once a year to atone for the sins of the camp. Otherwise it was off limits. The reason? The presence of God would kill unathorized visitors. The ark of the covnenant (that would be the Old Covenant, or the Mosaic Covenant) was there, and inside were the tables of stone called in scripture the Words of the Covenant (still the Mosaic covenant). When Jesus died, the curtain temple ripped from top to bottom. There was no more presence of God in the Most Holy Place. Furthermore, the ark of the covenant had been missing for several years. No longer was the Most Holy Place sacred. Everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, could gaze inside without mishap. Fifty days after Jesus resurrection, the Holy Spirit came and inhabited God's new temple, the human hearts of Christ followers. No longer is a place or temple sacred. We are the temple. And in us resides the Living Law, the Spirit of Jesus our Lord Himself! Jesus is not sitting in a heavenly Most Holy Place where tables of stone engraved with words of law sit in state. Ellen White says that God took the ark of the covenant back to heaven, but that is not bilbical. It was stolen during Iasrael's apostacy, and it's never been recovered. The Most Holy Place in heaven is God Almighty himself. Jesus and God the Father are there together. God himself is the law of the universe. He doesn't need a written code to run the universe or to get us to obey. He himself is love and power and wisdom and knowledge. The written Ten were simply a code of behavior which he gave to Israel to help them become a distinct and separate nation. The written Ten did not pre-exist Sianai. The Law of God is eternal and huge. It is full of reality and accountability which we cannot even perceive, limited as we are on this tiny three-dimensional planet. The Ten was a temporary measure given to organize an unruly, pagan group of people into a cohesive group with national pride and an awareness of a powerful and loving God. The Ten Commandments was to Israel what a six-foot fence is to a dog who likes to chase cars. It doesn't necessarily stop the desire and effort to chase the cars, but it certainly provides a painful consequence if the dog attempts to chase! We now live under the whole Law of God, and we have the actual source of that Law living inside us! God expects so much more from us than the behaviors set out in the Ten. He expects so much more from us than a day of rest! He expects so much more from us than simply not killing or telling lies. He expects the perfection of Christ from us! And he lives in us and coveres us with grace and righteousness and the power to live in obedience to his direction. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| sherry |
I agree with that entirely. "We now live under the whole Law of God, and we have the actual source of that Law living inside us! God expects so much more from us than the behaviors set out in the Ten. He expects so much more from us than a day of rest! He expects so much more from us than simply not killing or telling lies. He expects the perfection of Christ from us! And he lives in us and coveres us with grace and righteousness and the power to live in obedience to his direction." My thought is that the New Covenant goes from the very beginning...just as Christ called it a new commandment (to Love the Lord your God..and your neighbor as yourself), even though that it is found in Deuteronomy (sp?), so also New Covenant also shows by the faith chapter in Hebrews...and Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness...not faith in himself, but faith in His God. Faith in the coming Savior's atonement of sin for them, Faith that He has fulfilled the atonement of our sins today. As far as Ellen White and the ark being taken to heaven..I have no idea what that's about. I just know that Hebrew talks of the heavenly sanctuary in many parts....this is just one example..."Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: we have such a High Priest who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man." Hebrews 8:1,2. I had briefly left 5 years ago in spirit if you will and attended a charismatic church. My main thought was and prayer was: "Lord, I don't care what Adventists belief, I don't care what these folks believe...Lord just please teach me Your will"...my claim was God's promise, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you."...I would be on my knees pouring over the Bible during services, praying and searching, praying and searching....I would've rather proved these folks right...but the Spirit just led me text to text to text, and then I understood Sabbath and it's relevance....now why didn't I get the salvation message at that time? Probably because I wasn't seeking the answer...I thought I did understand it. So I went back to the SDA church...did God have His hand in it? Yes, now I can leave without the hatred I would've back then...I also leave having good friends in the sda church and out of the sda church. It is quite a beautiful place to be, though very painful getting here. and now I've got the joy of the Lord bringing me peace, and the assurance of salvation...now I'm not afraid of death. I know He loves me and I'm not lost immediately upon sinning. I now know His blood atoned for all my sins, front to finish! I want to shout it from the hilltops, MY REEDEMER LIVES!! He has paid the price. It is finished! Glory Halleluiah! Thank you Jesus! | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann It is blue. And my baby's got blue eyes. | ||
| sherry |
Bruce, do you have the article from Review and Herald where the statement was made about EGW being a prophet for today, just as Jerimiah was a prophet for times past? If you do, I would like a copy if that's possible. Oh, and I've seen quotes on the web from this book called "Prophetess of Health"? Know about that one? | ||
| jtree |
Bruce, no one answered your question above.. "Why did God leave out of the Holy Ten Commandments the Two great Commandments in the Law Matt 22:36 Cammandment # 418 (IN the book of law) Deut 6:5 you shall love the lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind, and Commandment #243 (In the book of law) Lev 19:18 You shall love your neighbor as yourself? Why did God put the Two Great Commandments to the side of the Ark and not inside?" Tell us why? | ||
| Max |
Yes, Bruce, inquiring minds want to know! | ||
| Max |
Hi, Sherry, I've had time to ponder your question -- "Well first off, explain to me why the Law was placed in the ark of the covenant?" And here are my observations: First: The law wasn't placed inside the ark of the covenant. The law was the Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. And it was not placed in the ark. Second: Only the Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark. But the New Testament attaches absolutely NO significance whatsoever to this fact. Third: The most important commandments -- (1) love the Lord with all your heart and (2) love your neighbor as yourself -- were not placed inside the ark. Fourth: Therefore, the commandments that were placed inside the ark were of LESS importance and LESS signficance than those placed outside. Fifth: When Jesus said, a NEW commandment give I unto you, he was giving NEW commandments because the OLD commandments were being done away with. Therefore, the need for the new. Sixth: Nine of the Ten Commandments were RENEWED in the New Testament in improved form. The only one that wasn't was the Fourth. You will not find the Fourth Commandment, the Seventh-day Sabbath Commandment, in the New Testament. Seventh: The Fourth Commandment's DAY-LONG rest was fulfilled in the New Testament in the New Covenant's ETERNITY-LONG rest in Jesus Christ. Eighth: Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the idea that only the Ten Commandments are now written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts. The whole law (Genesis through Deuteronomy) is written there. But in a different and improved form: And that form is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. And the objective reality we look to for guidance in how we conduct our lives must be, first and foremost, the words and acts of Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament. This informs the rest of the New Testament, such as Paul's letters. And the whole New Testament, in turn, informs the Old Testament. Not the other way around. This is my answer. Under grace alone, Max | ||
| George |
Max, Very good. George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Well, I have to agree with George (for once;-). that was a very, very good answer! Maryann |
