| Author | Message | ||
| Bruce H |
George I BELIEVE you have somthing there. But you may find that the doing takes the Longest, But when you start you WILL BE BLESSED BEYOUND YOUR WILDEST DREAMS!!!!!!!!!! George this is good enough to put on the testamonies List. Belief + Faith = Doing Faith + Salvation = Works Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| George |
Bethany, How can you have faith in something if you don't believe in it first? Take the example of the woman that touched hem of Christ's robe. She first heard about Christ and what He was doing or was able to do, then she believed He could do it, then she did something about it--reached out her hand and touched the robe. It was AFTER the woman took action, that Christ commended her for her faith. He didn't say there is a woman out there that has so much faith that she is going to only tough the hem of my robe to get healed. You see, He waited till after she acted to say something. Go to the top of this thread and reread what Patti wrote and you will see that in every case there was action after belief and before commendation, had they not acted He would not have said anything. To me this order of things makes things crystal clear, hearing, belief, action. It the past these things were out of order for me and it just didn't work. It was like I was trying to climb a hundred foot ladder starting 3/4 th's of the way up, you might be able to do it, but how much less complicated and less confusing and how much more sure the results if you follow the right order---bottom to top. As for many different orders----Look again at the examples above, at no time is the order given in any other way, believing always cames before action and the commendation of faith. Always. I guess all I am really trying to say is if you are always praying for faith to believe or to do something and you don't seem to be getting any, perhaps you should take a look at weather you REALLY believe in what you want. In the past when I prayed for faith I didn't BELIEVE I would get any because I had never seen anyone that did and I never got any. George | ||
| George |
Bruce You are soooo right, the doing is the hard part. I understand and believe all this but have I done anything about it....NO. What is stopping me? I am not sure. But I do know that praying for faith to do it, will do nothing for me. It never has, and I am sure it nevr will until take that first step--until I act on what I believe. Then if there is a need and I really believe I will be able to move the mountain I can see out the window. Am I ready for that kind of power? I don't think so. George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, Okay, it's my turn! Now to whether the faith and belief thing are the same thing. I don't think so! They're in the same family though in my opinion. Just like the heart belongs to the body and the brain belongs to the body and are NOT the same thing, so with faith and belief? If you are born without one or the other, YOU ARE DEAD! Here is an example that is not exactly the correct illustration, but I think it will help get the point across. My illustration will be of something that IS seen, not like faith unseen. So just try to follow my thought. I have an apricot tree that is loaded with apricots. I believe that they are getting ripe and need to go out every day and pick them early in the morning so I beat the birds and they are cool so as not to briuse them as easy. 4 or 5 days ago was the right time to start picking. I believed that! BUT, I didn't act on that belief! Why? I was to lazy to get off my dead hind side to do it!:-(( What were the consequences? I went out a little while ago and started picking when it was 350 degree's out! The birds already picked at least 50 lbs! The wind knocked another 50 lbs to the ground that the dogs seemed to feel the need to take a sample of each! I'm not one to sweat, but in my run down condition, I have sweat justa pouring off me as I'm typing! Sure I picked about 100 lbs. That's great. I did believe that the fruit was out there. BUT it did me no good till I acted on my belief. As a result of my NOT acting, I lost 100 lbs of fruit, roasted to death in the heat and look like someone turned a hose on me. I believed from the time I was 7 or 8 years old. I did NOT act on that belief till a couple years ago! I lost 35 years of a relationship with God.(He never lost His relationship with me though!!) I lost all those years of training to be a witness all those years! Why? Because I didn't ACT on my BELIEF! If Billy Graham hadn't acted on his belief, would he have had the ministry he has had for 50 or 60 years? No! If he had acted on his belief yesterday, would he be saved? Yes! BUT, he and the world would have missed a great blessing. So acting on the belief = faith. Faith with nothing to believe in = nothing. Belief in faith = nothing. Sooo, you MUST act? Thoughts please. I don't mind getting hammered if you think I'm way off track! Upward and onward......Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
George, I truly do not want to get into a debate with you. I don't want to do anything that sets up any kind of negative feelings between us because I have enjoyed our discussions immensely. I still think that belief = faith. It is truly difficult coming out of a legalistic religion to let go of the notion that there must be something that we must DO to be saved. But Paul is very clear that salvation comes of faith (call it what you will: belief, trust, confidence) in the doing and dying of Christ alone. Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. The ability to act is not a part of our salvation. Because if we are focused on the perfection of Christ alone, we will see ourselves only as helpless and unworthy. The more clearly we see the spotlessness of the Lamb, the more sinful we will view ourselves. All of our "good" works are as filthy rags to God, so why would we think that we can do anything pleasing to God? Except for one single thing: John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." That is it, George. We can do no higher or greater deed than to believe that Jesus Christ is our full salvation and depend totally on His righteousness, the perfect that He accomplished for us, for our full salvation. I don't know what else to say. That is the Gospel in its entirety. When we try to fit our works into the picture we throw a rod into the workings. Jesus Christ is our full salvation. We live as grateful subjects to the King of kings. We try to love our neighbors as ourselves because we are grateful that God accepted us just as we are, but this in no way a part of our salvation. I really have tunnel vision when it comes to the Gospel. I shy clear of any church or person who begins to try and throw the emphasis back onto the believer instead of onto Christ. I am not saying this is what you are doing; it is just that I am gunshy after so many years of SDAism and dealing with them on other forums. Our salvation is in Jesus Christ totally and fully. The 'Good news' that we are supposed to preach to the world is not the message of how we have been regenerated; that will change on a daily basis, and if or when we should fall, so goes our witness. Our witness should be like Paul's, like the disciples on the Day of Pentecost: our crucified and risen Savior. Please forgive me if I have missed your point yet again. I simply see no difference in "faith" and "belief." One who believes has faith; one who has faith, believes. While it is what we believe that determines our actions, it is only by trusting in the doing and dying of Christ (faith) that we can take hold of eternal life. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Plain Patti |
Actually, there is a precise definition of "faith" in the Bible. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV) Or, if you prefer, RSV Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. I will let the words stand for themselves. You do not need me to interpret the Bible for you. :) Grace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, How about adding Romans 14:22 to your list of faith definitions: "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Max | ||
| George |
Patti, I would never take offense at any you say on any subject to me. Nor will I ever get angry. This has been a wonderful experience talking to you and I would like it to continue. I can understand how you would be gunshy of someone that is trying to say we have to go back to works, as you should be. But, that is not what I am trying to say at all. Rom 4:5 says "However the man who does not work but trusted in God...." In this verse you see that the man is doing something....trusting in God. You wrote: "Or, if you prefer, RSV Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." I think we can say that conviction is the same as belief. So we could say it this way: Faith is the result of belief in things unseen. If this does not change the meaning of the text, does it not say that faith comes after belief and not before. I'm out of time---George | ||
| George |
Max, You said: "How about adding Romans 14:22 to your list of faith definitions: "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." That is a good verse. But in this case it does not apply to the belief/faith discussion. George | ||
| Max |
Why not? | ||
| bethany |
Maybe faith is a gift that God gives us, and in turn, one believes? | ||
| Max |
Bethany, I think you're right. I think faith IS a pure gift from God alone. We have to get out of this mode of thinking that believing is an intellectual exercise, a business deal or a gamble. Faith is relationship. Sin is relationship. Whatever is not of a faith relationship is of a sin relationship. --Max | ||
| Colleentinker |
Georgeó I understand what you're saying. I have a suggestion: it's time to confess your belief to God. The "scope and sequence" (as we say at school when discussing curriculum!) of how faith/belief play into salvation will resolve seamlessly when you trust Him enough to tell him you do! Tell him you accept him as your Savior and that you want him to be the Lord of your life. I understand how frightening such a commitment can be. For many of us it never seemed safe to make a permanent, life-changing commitment without conditions. But I know your heart is convinced that this time your trust is founded on Someone true. You will not be disappointed in this commitment! I'm still praying for you, George! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, You said June 7: "My faith has sprung from my experience with God. For me the order was (1) experience God, (2) believe in the God of my experience, (3) submit myself to God in a totally natural response to God's grace." You faith SPRUNG FROM you experience with God? That tense sounds to me like something came before faith? All my life and so many other people's life we've been told we had to have faith. This faith was illusive! We weren't told how this happened! When a seemingly Biblical idea comes along that says that you have to act on belief = faith and a whole new wonderful image of God appears, I wouldn't be to hasty in saying: "Whatever is not of a faith relationship is of a sin relationship." I just don't see how that applies? At this point, by your fruits you shall them is the key. I have to agree with George. And the reason is; he has made a remarkable change in his fruits. I know, I've been around him. He's not perfect by a long shot, but neither are any other Christians! I also don't think this is an "intellectual exercise" in the sense that you ment it. All study is an intellectual exercise. If this particular way of looking at this opened the eyes and heart of a real hard man, I think it's worth looking at. Everyone has a different way of processing information and this worked for George. And now, he is so confident that he is willing to share this with others (off the Forum). That is a miracle!!!!! And no!!!!!! this is NOT advocating works. You said: "I think faith IS a pure gift from God alone." You are right!!! So right!!!! BUT, you still had to believe, then act on that belief and REACH out and receive it. Soooo, acting on belief MUST come before faith! That's it! ;-))) God didn't pry open your hand and stick faith in it! He put it into your open, outstretched hand. The hand that your belief caused you to act on. Will I get more that a "hear, hear, Maryann" out of this? ;-) Ment nice ;-))) ....Maryann :-) | ||
| Max |
Hi Maryann, "Hear, hear Maryann!" means for OTHER people to hear you. It doesn't mean for you to hear me! The phrase is used all the time in the British Parliament. MPs (Members of Parliament) will say, "Hear, hear!" when they AGREE with what the speaker is saying. I'll speak to your concerns next post. | ||
| Maryann |
And I thought that ment settle down!? ;-)) Joke's on me, huh? Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
And I just thought of something else. I was wondering why you spelled "hear" instead of "here" since you wrote that! I was so sure that you ment settle down that my little pin head didn't see the obvious meaning. Good example of how a pre-supposition can distort something huh? My head hurts.......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann again, I have to admit that I can understand George's post a lot better when you interpret them for me. I also fully agree with you that there are varieties of religious experiences for different people -- all valid as the Holy Spirit makes them "with unutterable groanings." Here's my quote again: "My faith has sprung from my experience with God. For me the order was (1) experience God, (2) believe in the God of my experience, (3) submit myself to God in a totally natural response to God's grace." Consider scriptural examples: 1. Moses EXPERIENCED God in the burning bush. 2. Isaiah EXPERIENCED God with he saw the six angels flying around the throne of God "high and lifted up" and the smoke of his incense "filled the temple." 3. Abraham EXPERIENCED God when God spoke to him outright. 4. The Children of Israel EXPERIENCED God at the Exodus with the parting of the Reed Sea, the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, at Sinai with all the thunder, lightning, earthquake, etc. 5. Elijah EXPERIENCED God in the form of the still small voice after the loud wind, earthquake and wildfire. 6. Daniel EXPERIENCED God in the lion's den. 7. Nebuchadnezzar EXPERIENCED God when God cut him down to size and he had to "eat straw like the ox" for three (?) years. 8. Saul (later Paul) EXPERIENCED God when God zapped him in the eyes with a laser beam on the road to Damascus. 8. The disciples EXPERIENCED God in the person of Jesus Christ (fully God and fully human). John says, "We touched him with our hands." So when I say my faith sprung from my experience with God, I AM INDEED saying something came before faith: EXPERIENCE with God. For me, as in the above examples, my faith sprang from my EXPERIENCE with God. For me my experiencer PRECEDED my faith. I have had many experiences with God. I have a faith relationship with God based on my experience encounters with God. When I say my faith does not spring from a business deal or an intellectual exercise or a gamble (say, a coin toss: heads I believe, tails I don't), I am saying that there is an encountering experience with God that generates my faith. I am saying that God -- not I -- takes the initiative. I am the bull; God takes me by the horns. More next post. | ||
| Max |
Hi again, Maryann, You wrote, "When a seemingly Biblical idea comes along that says that you have to act on belief = faith and a whole new wonderful image of God appears, I wouldn't be too hasty in saying: 'Whatever is not of a faith relationship is of a sin relationship.'" I'm not sure what you mean here. If faith is a relationship with God and if sin is a relationship with Satan, then it seems logical to say that 'Whatever is not of a faith relationship is of a sin relationship.' This because Scripture says, "Whatever is not of faith is sin." More next post. | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Jude, (for old times sake) No bull! I'm thinking when you present your bull head, God grabs you by the horns? Ment nice and funny too! What's the verse about the guy who knocks, THEN the door opens? I'm just not quite agreeing with the bull theory as you presented it. God initiates and maintains life and all that stuff. You have to initiate the knock? You have to put the bull horns in God's space? I really liked your above 9 illustations! Thank you for giving me such funny material to work with! You made my day ;-))) Upward and onward.....Maryann |
