| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 1:28 pm: |     |
Sherry,
You wrote, "The husband who's beating his wife, and raping the children obviously is not feeling any consequences for his actions. Why the wife doesn't get help when she can from outside sources is not ok. Why isn't she getting help?"
Do you believe that the husband SHOULD feel consequences for his actions? The reason the wife doesn't get help when she can from outside sources is that she's under what she feels is conviction from the Lord that when her husband says -- shortly before he beats her senseless and rapes the kids again -- "Let's all hold hands and forgive one another."
That's why she's not gettting help.
Max |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 1:35 pm: | |
Patti,
Jesus said, "I am the vine, you are the branches." Do you believe that a gospel which does not produce the fruits of the Spirit is anything other than a bogus gospel?
Max |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 1:41 pm: | |
Hi Maryann,
What is "total forgiveness"? For me forgiveness is a transaction between two people, for instance, carried out through and under the sovereignty of God. How can forgiveness be "total" if there is no such transaction?
Max |
Sherry
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 2:21 pm: | |
Max, yes I do think he would benefit from feeling the consequences for his actions if it leads to a repentant heart...most certainly. What you described is a codependant relationship, and yes, intervention (consequences) is a key element in that sort of scenario to either bring this man to a place where he feels his need for help, or he will go further into this degredation, but this time, not taking the family and kids with him.
Recent studies have shown that woman do not have the "Fight, flight" instinct. They just assumed we did. All those former tests were done in male studies. They finally did the test with women, and the results were much different than expected. Women tend to befriend. In an abusive situation, a woman's body will actually produce the hormone - oxitosin (not sure if that is correct spelling) which is a bonding hormone a woman also produces with her baby. So instead of wanting to flee, she bonds with her abuser...this can also explain kidnapped women who will bond with the kidnapper and go about on crimes with him. It is a normal response to stay but a most harmful one as well. A long period of seperation with a support system is what is needed in these situations.
Recover is my hobby you could say. I lead out a 12-step recovery group here where I live.
Just recently I was phone called about a son attacking his father with a knife - he's an alcoholic and is 27 still living at home. The father told how his son in the past has told him that he never lets him feel the consequences for his actions, and that he doesn't love him. The father called 911, they put his son in jail, and then he went down and bailed him out. This is sickness! This is not grace! This boy, young man, may end up killing someone eventually just to see if anyone cares enough to set boundaries for him. |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 3:17 pm: | |
Thank you so much, Sherry!
It is a relief to see that someone understands this key issue.
^^ This is sickness! This is not grace! ^^
Amen!
Real grace alone,
Max |
Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 5:00 pm: | |
I heard the best definition of forgiveness from a clinical social worker about nine years ago. It was this: Forgiveness does not mean "forgive and forget". You have to remember in order to protect yourself from further abuse. Forgiveness means remembering and protecting yourself, but letting God take care of the revenge/consequences. Meting out revenge is too big a load for a human's shoulders. Jesus wants to carry that part.
Giving God the load,
Colleen |
Rolaant
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 9:06 pm: | |
The best definition of forgiveness comes right from the Word of God.
God does not merely cover over your sins, for then there is the chance that they may be later uncovered. He does not merely file them away in a drawer somewhere, for the drawer later may be opened. He does not merely shred them, for the strips may be reconstructed at a later time. He does not merely delete them from the computer hard drive, for they may still be retrieved later. This is what God does with your sins:
"If You, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with You there is forgiveness; therefore You are feared." (Psalms 130:3-4)
"As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us." (Psalms 103:12)
"None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live." (Ezekiel 33:16)
"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you." (Isaiah 44:22)
"You will again have compassion on us; You will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea." (Micah 7:19)
God does not keep a record of your sins; He removes them far from you; God remembers your sins no more; your sins are blotted out like a thick cloud; your sins are thrown down into the depths of the sea, never to be remembered anymore against you. Now that is forgiveness! |
Steve
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 10:39 am: | |
Rolaant,
You quoted the following scripture:
"If You, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with You there is forgiveness; therefore You are feared." (Psalms 130:3-4)
WOW! I've not read that before (makes me wonder what we SDAS spend time reading instead of scripture?!)
If I'm forgiven, and I understand this scripture properly, there is NO RECORD -- ANYWHERE of my sin. Forgiveness seems to be the opposite of keeping a record of sin.
It seems our salvation is based totally on what Christ has done, and on nothing we have done. I guess that makes salvation as secure as it can possibly get.
Secure in Him,
Steve |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 12:48 pm: | |
Yup, Steve! That's what it means!
Ain't it great!
Patti |
jtree
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 5:24 am: | |
Here is a thought from a Yahoo club concerning salvation. I will quote and I will also give what the person responded to.
First to the message that he responded to:
I said :Christ fulfilled the Ten Commandments by living a perfect and sinless life. Thus, when man trusts in Christ, Christís righteousness is imputed to that individual so we have justification. We have Christís righteousness so the Law canít condemn us (Rom. 8:1; 7:1-6; Rom. 5:1; 4:4-8).
Christ fulfilled the ceremonial ordinances, the shadows and types of His person and work, by dying
on the cross for us and in our place. This showed that God was also perfect justice and sin must be
judged, but God provided His Son, the precious Lamb of God. The penalty which the Law exercised
was paid. Again there is no condemnation because the believer is ìin Christî (Col. 2:14; Rom.
3:24-25).
Christ also fulfilled the Social Law, but now He replaces it with a new way of life fitting to our new salvation. He gives provision for the inner manóthe indwelling Holy Spiritówho enables us to
experience true sanctification so that we may experience also the righteousness of the Law (Rom.
8:2-4).
The <b>"LEGALISTIC VIEWER" RESPONDED</b>
"yes Christ fulfilled the law, he lived it perfectly, blamelessly,spotless. His righteousness is imputed to us, most definetly, however (you knew that was coming), this does not in ANY way excuse us or anyone else from keeping the law. SIN = BREAKING THE LAW, if you knowingly break the law
then there remains no more sacrifice for you. Christ fulfilled the law so that when we sin (break the law) we have a mediator, a savior to bring us back into the grace of God, how you say? simple, we realize that because of our sin Jesus stepped down from His throne and was placed upon a rotted beam and nailed to it and died there, taking our punishment for us, the true converted Christian acknowledges this and strives to live a life that would be worthy of such a tremendous loving sacrifice as the one He became. Let me put it this way: Lets say you are having an affair, you catch some terrible disease that only infects the opposite sex, you catch it from contact and become a carrier, you then transmit this to your spouse. This disease is causes a slow painful death to the infected person, luckily you catch it in time, confess your transgression to your spouse and after a few weeks of suffering they get medical attention and are cured. Now your transgression has caused the one you love to contract a disease that could have cost them their life, are you going to be willing to take that
chance again? I hardly think so! And because your spouse did forgive you, even though you nealry
cost them their life, there is no way that you want to do anything that could ever hurt them again, correct? Well this is like the story of Jesus, He contracted our disease - sin and it nearly did kill him (I am speaking in the sense of that because he was human he could have sinned and died) because we love Him and are in such an great debt to what He did, we do those things that please Him, sadly though the world, under Satans control, has translated this all to mean that He only died so that we could break the laws, that we were already doing anyway only this time we would be forgiven! Nah, I dont think so! He died to give us a more clear understanding as to what exactly sin does and we are to avoid it, but too many people have excused themselves from it, sorry the law stands and we fall, if we understand this... He catches us."
What do my friends at FAF say to this? |
George
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 7:40 am: | |
To you all,
If sins are covered with blood, how could anyone see them to keep a record of them?
Just a thought.
George |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 8:05 am: | |
Amen, George!
I also liked your idea of dropping our eggs into the depths of the ocean.
God bless! |
Steve
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 9:51 am: | |
Jtree,
The thought from your legalistic responder, about the fact that if we willingly break the law, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, is disturbing.
I know that comes from scripture. But if we understand it in the legalistic sense, then after we come to Christ, and we sin, we are eternally lost. There is no more salvation in Christ.
If that understanding is true, then no one . . . NO ONE . . . on the face of the earth has been saved. Although my knowledge is very limited, I don't know of anyone who has come to Christ and never sinned again.
So if the law stands (as that individual claims) then where is the room for Christ? Where is forgiveness for sins committed after coming to Him? I agree that sin is an evil disease and we've all been infected. But to say that after coming to Christ we can not let that disease affect us or we lose our salvation is to nullify the Grace of God.
Diseased but standing in Him,
Steve |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 12:50 pm: | |
Steve,
That is an often-misused text by law-mongers. I have faced this on SDA and RCC bbses alike. But these folks never seem to quote the verse in its context.
Let's take a look at the chapter beginning in verse 17.
Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
Patti:
I will pause at this point to inject an observation. If He will truly remember our sins and lawless acts no more, how come He is going to suddenly recall them next time we deliberately sin?
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Patti:
The sacrificial system ceased with the death of Christ because His death was propitiation for all the sins of the world.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,
Patti:
Confidence is a main them of the last part of the book Hebrews.
20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
Patti:
Another reiteration of the theme: "assurance."
... having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Patti:
Free from a guilty conscience! Talk about being truly free!
And what is this "hope"? The forgiveness of sin in Jesus Christ.
Now, BECAUSE we have been saved to the uttermost, BECAUSE we know He is faithful and will keep His promise to those who believe in Him, then...
24 ...let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Patti:
And just what is this deliberate sin that makes us "fall from grace"? Read on:
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished WHO HAS TRAMPLED THE SON OF GOD UNDERFOOT, WHO HAS TREATED AS AN UNHOLY THING THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT THAT SANCTIFIED HIM, WHO HAS INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF *GRACE*.
Patti:
This is not speaking of sins of commission; this is speaking of the sin of DISBELIEF, as discussed in the third and fourth chapters of Hebrews. It is the "shrinking back" that is described in verse 38 below. Of rejecting the grace so freely offered in Jesus Christ.
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering.
Patti:
Is the author speaking of our own "works" here; it is obvious to me that "standing your ground" refers to holding fast to the "light"; the Gospel of salvation by faith in Christ alone. When one preaches the Gospel, persecution is inevitable, because the Gospel "is foolishness" to the unconverted and it cuts directly against the grain of the human ego that wants to actively control and be a participant in his own salvation. When I found the Gospel, or, I should say, when the Gospel found me, I thought my peers would be just as excited to hear the Good News as I was at having been opened to it. On the contrary, for the unconverted, the Gospel is a double-edged sword, and they immediately begin their campaign to smear the theologies and the characters of those who preach salvation by the mercy of God alone.
33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.
34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
Patti:
The writer of Hebrews speaks of "confidence" quite a bit. What is the foundation of that confidence? Notice these verses:
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain MERCY, and find Grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 13:6
So that we may boldly say, THE LORD IS MY HELPER, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Patti:
That confidence comes of the assurance that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ ALONE is sufficient for our full salvation; that not just our individual sins are forgiven, but that WE are forgiven. Completely. Not because of our faith, belief, repentence, confession, sanctification or any thing in us, but BECAUSE OF THE WORTHINESS OF THE LAMB OF GOD.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Patti:
And of what does this "perseverence" consist?
38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
Patti:
It comes of believing and not shrinking back. It comes of absolute confidence that Jesus Christ is faithful and He will save us as He has promised. The righteous will LIVE by faith. We live now as if we were already on the other side of glory. We can be confident. Christ has died and left us a glorious inheritance.
39 BUT WE ARE NOT OF THOSE WHO SHRINK BACK AND ARE DESTROYED, BUT OF THOSE WHO *BELIEVE* AND ARE SAVED.
Patti:
There is your answer, Steve. Isn't it wonderful? And it fully supports the Gospel as clearly outlined in Romans and the Gospel of John.
He who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Right now. By faith in the blood of Christ. May God keep us in the wonder and the assurance of His remarkable saving act in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Grace and peace,
Patti |
sherry
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 5:16 pm: | |
Patti, thank you a thousand times over! I can't tell you how many times that passage "No sacrifice for sins" left me feeling utterly lost and hopeless. Thank you! That made sense! Wow! I get it! Yeehah! I'm so excited! Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!:) oh, and thank you Roolant, for that Psalms 130:3,4 text too. Never heard that before. Gotta underline that in my Bible. I drew a picture once in high school of a lake and put a "No Fishing" sign on it, and then one of those verses about our sins being thrown to the depths of the sea. |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 5:19 pm: | |
Sherry,
My eyes are filled with tears of happiness for you. I am praising God with you this evening!
Isn't His salvation truly amazing!?
Grace and peace always,
Patti |
Steve
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 6:01 pm: | |
Patti,
Thank you for the context. I guess that if God totally forgives our sins (which means that they do not exist for Him) then if we sin again (that is "again" in our eyes), it's as though we've never sinned before (in His eyes) and He can forgive us again.
So I guess there remains no sacrifice for sins for those who have never had their sins forgiven. But once our sins are forgiven, then the sacrifice of Jesus Christ cleanses us (and GOES ON CLEANSING us, as I believe the Greek indicates) from our sins.
Beautiful thought.
Steve |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 8:40 pm: | |
Beautiful, indeed, Steve!
Mind boggler, isn't it?
Grace and peace,
Patti |
Rolaant
| | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2000 - 11:58 am: | |
Sherry, Patti, Steve, George,
I just stopped by the forum today. Praise God that His forgiveness is complete, that His grace is all sufficient in salvation. And because of this we can rest safely in His hands, having the complete assurance that He will not fail in taking us to heaven to be with Him.
See how marvelous and unsurpassed is God's grace in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! (8-)
Rolaant |
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