| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I have no qustion about George's faith or the fruits the result from him. I believe you. I would say, though, that the Scripture that says, "By their fruits ye shall know them," refers to human beings "looking on the outward appearance" of other human beings. But, "God looks on the heart." And I am not judging George or you or anyone else in saying that. You've noticed a positive change in him, and you have related that to me. I believe you. His faith is real and is changing him. When I say that my faith is not just an intellectual exercise, I am not saying that my intellectual faculties are not involved in my faith. Look at it this way: Suppose you are drowning and somebody in a boat rows over to save you. The steps are all there: (1) You EXPERIENCE the person in the rowboat, (2) you BELIEVE that that person can save you from drowning, (3) you ACT on that belief by allowing that other person to heave your exhausted body over the side, (4) you DEVELOP A TRUST RELATIONSHIP with the other person who saved your life with your life, a relationship that could last a lifetime. More next post. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max again, You said: "Whatever is not of a faith relationship is of a sin relationship." Maybe I didn't understand what you ment? In the context of the conversation with you and bethany over George's post, I thought: You were insinuating that by believing that you have to act on belief = faith, equaled no faith, therefore making that theory a bed fellow of the devil. Did I miss-understand you? BTW, I'm still basking in the enjoyment you gave me in my last post! ;-)))) Maryann :-) | ||
| Max |
Hi again, Maryann, I confess I don't know that "acting on belief MUST come before faith!" That's a hard one for me. It seems to me that, as far as my faith is concerned, experience with God came FIRST and there was no problem believing. The problem came when I realized that God was serious, that God meant business with my life, that I had to crucify my sinful desires in response to God's grace. Well, I think I need to hear from you now. What do you say? Still under grace alone and hanging on for dear life, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi again, Very much agreed. The outward fruits are NOT for God to look at and say, cool job! The outward fruits are to show as a witness to other earthling that God is an awesome God. My best deed on my best day with the best of intentions, even with the help of the Holy Spirit, in and of themselves stink to high heaven and make God have to wear a mask to cover the smell. The only way that I'm acceptable to God is though His son, then and only then do I smell good. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Max, This is cool. Almost as fast as MSM instant messenger! I just have to go back to the thing about hearing people pray, beg, borrow, steal, grovel, crawl, whine, cry and a few more things for faith and never recieve it! I've seen them get discouraged, toss religion, go off the deep end and all kinds of things. Why????????? The were trying to get/make God GIVE them faith! They weren't willing to ACT on their BELIEF. They wanted it presented to them on a silver platter. They wanted to have faith so they could believe. Hey that's it! They had it backwards! You said: "I confess I don't know that "acting on belief MUST come before faith!" I say it has to!? What do you think? Maryann | ||
| Max |
Oh, it's late and I can hardly think any more. To bed with me! | ||
| Maryann |
Yeh, let's continue this later today since today is tomorrow;-)) I'm amazed you made it to this hour! I gotta go nurse this headache that is making the roof of the house pulsate! Maryann | ||
| Bethany |
You all seem to be night owl's, wow! When I first came to Jesus, I'm not sure I really believed, and I know I didn't have faith. But, if faith is hope, then I guess I had some faith. As I shared in a different post of my "first" experience with God's Salvation, I was so desperate at that time that I hoped God was real. When I prayed for Him to rescue me, I was actually surprised that He did! What was I acting on? I experienced God swoop me up in His arms, even when I didn't believe or have Faith that He would. Or, maybe I believed and didn't know it? don't think so.... Anyway, I find all your posts most interesting, and I don't claim to have any "answers". I do claim to have Jesus though, and everything I've experienced from Him has been His gift to me. | ||
| George |
Mdax, I think if you take a real close look, you will see that you believed before you had your experience with God. Enjoyed reading your posts. George | ||
| Plain Patti |
Max wrote: I have had many experiences with God. I have a faith relationship with God based on my experience encounters with God. Here is where our understanding parts ways. I truly believe that faith is as defined in Hebrews 11:1. It is based upon what we cannot see or experience. It is based not on anything that has happened inside of ourselves, but upon the singular, unrepeatable, once-for-all work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. It is belief in something that we cannot see, touch, feel. It appears to me that some of us are trying to turn faith into a work that happens in us. Remember the story of Thomas: John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Faith is belief in something that one has no tangible evidence of. Too many Christians today try to turn faith into a work, something that happens inside a believer. Faith is merely the hand that reaches out and takes hold of the doing and dying of Christ in our behalf. It is what makes us confident that His grace is sufficient. Does it propel us to certain actions? Yes, but that is only a result, not the substance of faith itself. Max, you quoted Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. If faith is the conviction of things unseen, of things only hoped for in this life, and everything that is not of faith is sin, then anything that we experience in this life is sin. It is sinful because we are sinful. And our faith in an alien righteousness, a perfect righteousness that remains alien to us until the day of the consummation, is our hope. God credits the perfect sinlessness of Christ to us when we believe that His work was indeed sufficient for us. Everything that comes through this human vessel will be tainted with sin. I used the analogy of trying to get pure drinking water from a sewer hose in another post. So it is with us. All of our good works are as filthy rags. Our hope is not based upon our experiences, or they are founded upon sinful works; our hope is stored up in heaven, safe, out of our reach, "where rust cannot not corrupt nor moth destroy." And God, for some reason known only to Him, will accept our belief in His Son, as weak as our faith is, and regard us as perfect as Jesus Christ Himself. That is the liberating truth of the Gospel. We can totally let go of any self-examination and keep our eyes focused on the spotless Lamb of God. My mother ran across this wonderful truth in her study of the sanctuary service, even before she left SDAism. In the sanctuary, when a person would bring a lamb for a sin offering, the priest was to conduct an inspection, an examination, if you will. Do you know what the priest was to inspect? Was he to interrogate the person bringing the sacrifice to ascertain that that person had put away all known sin? That he was sincerely repentful? That he was totally submitted to the will of God? No. Not at all. The priest inspected the lamb to make sure it was perfect and spotless. What a wonderful illustration for us today! When we approach the throne of God, we do not have to worry if we are totally submitted to the will of God or if we have any unconfessed sin in our lives? We claim the perfection of the Lamb! How else could we boldly approach the throne of grace, as the writer of Hebrews tells us to? We are worthy because Christ is worthy! That is the Gospel. Nothing more. Or, rather I should say, nothing less, because if we try to add our own experiences in there, we are indeed corrupting the perfect righteousness that is our by believing in Christ. Once again, the lyrics of the old hymn come to mind: "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood (forgiveness of sin) and righteousness (His perfect life which is imputed to all who believe in Him)" Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| bethany |
I found this verse helpful: The Grace of the Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 1 timothy 1:14 Bethany | ||
| Plain Patti |
George, I think it is time for me to go. I feel that I have worn out my welcome here. I would still like to discuss things with you, though. So, please, write me at my email address. Or anyone else who may be so inclined. May God richly bless you all. Patti | ||
| Max |
George, You may be right about "you will see that you believed before you had your experience with God." I don't know. But I believe my first experiences with God started when I was so young I couldn't possibly be able to make such fine distinctions. Praising God for you, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Galatians 5:24 NIV. "I [Paul] am afraid that when I come again [to you the Corinthian believers] my God will humble me beforeyuou, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged." 2 Corinthians 12:21 NIV. "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God." Ephesians 6:12-13 NIV. "Whatever is true, whatevere is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable -- if anything is excellent or praiseworthy -- think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me -- put it into practice." Philippians 4:8-9 NIV. "Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful. And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should. Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." Colossians 4:2-6 NIV. "Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:16-22 NIV. "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you." 2 Thessalonians 3:6-8 NIV. Praising God for you, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, You said, "I think it is time for me to go. I feel that I have worn out my welcome here." I think that would be a dis-service to the Forum and yourself. If "time" is an issue, I understand. Pushing or pulling against resistance is how muscle is developed. Leaving for resistance is defeating the whole purpose of the exercise. PLEASE STAY! I don't always agree with you, Max and other's, but I'm growing. I'm stunted compared to most of you guys, but God created "short" people too! You have presented studies and ideas that have been invaluable to this Forum ;-))) I'll give you what I think in the next post. Upward and onward.......Maryann | ||
| George |
Patti, I would hate to see you go as you have the ability to bring in interesting views on things and after all that is what this forum is all about. Also I have to say that you have not worn out your welcome nor could you do so. Got to go back to work, will email you soon. George | ||
| Patti |
Sorry, gang, but anytime someone refers to my faith in Jesus Christ as "bogus," then it is time for me to leave. I can get more assurance than this on one of the 3 other SDA forums that I am on! I have fought with my inner SDA self for years trying to shuck the guilt that comes of "trying to do it all." I cannot, will not allow anyone to try and put me back under that load of guilt. I am poor and wretched and blind and naked in myself. I always will be. The imputed righteousness of Christ alone, without any works, without any "self-crucifixion," without any "submitting of my will," without anything, is my hope alone. And if my hope is misplaced, then I am damned indeed. May God richly bless you all, Patti Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. | ||
| Patti |
George, I just got a book from Amazon.com that has me shouting Amen from the introduction. It is called "Faith Alone" by R.C. Sproul. I came back here to strongly recommend it to you. In fact, if you were to get it and read it, I would love to discuss it with you chapter by chapter. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I hope you will re-consider. The comment: "If your flesh is not crucified as a result of your encounter with Jesus, then you CANNOT honor God in any way, shape or form NOW OR EVER and your belief/faith is BOGUS: You are a weed and not a wheat, a goat and not a sheep, a bad fish and not a good." Was not in my mind pointed at you. I took that as a general observation. Let me explain how I see it. I am saved. My salvation is secure. God is an awesome, loving, caring God that emptied heaven to save ME. Hey, I'm thankful, like really thankful! :-) The Holy Spirit is now my guide. My number 1 job is to listen to Him. I'm not the best listener. I am learning though to listen. (really tough one for me)! If my salvation were dependant on my listening ability I would be in deep trouble. Praise God for that! In my listening to the Holy Spirit, I MUST crush some of the things I used to do when the Holy Spirit wasn't my guide. THIS IS COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM MY SECURITY AND SALVATION! I don't crush the deeds I used to do to be saved. I DO IT BECAUSE I AM SAVED! :-)) I fully believe Max is saying that, only he's not saying it clearly! (sorry Max) I fully believe that you understand that you crush the old carnal deeds not to be saved, but because you are saved! You are just not making that clear. (sorry Patti) You guys are going to be walking arm in arm in heaven. How about recognizing that you already are here on earth. ;-)) Maryann | ||
| Timo K. |
I agree with Max, that our sinful flesh must be crucified, but in Christ it is already crusified. Room.6:6.This is enough for God. The Holy Spirit is sent to do in practise what we already are together with Christ in His death and resorection. timo |
