| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, Let me rephrase my paragraph: If one's flesh is not crucified as a result of one's encounter with Jesus, then one CANNOT honor God in any way, shape or form NOW OR EVER and one's belief/faith is BOGUS: One is a weed and not a wheat, a goat and not a sheep, a bad fish and not a good. I do not have the right to call your faith bogus. The only things I know nothing about your faith except what you have told me and are telling me. And I take what you have said about your faith seriously and respectfully. I do not judge your faith to be bogus. I do not judge it at all. Whatever you say your faith is, that is what I accept. I do not attempt to infer from the theological points that different people make make anything at all about their personal faith and/or your relationship to God. That is between them and God. But I can tell you here and now that I do not and never have believed your faith to be bogus. Can you forgive me for not being careful enough in how I expressed the point I was trying to make? With you in Christ's grace, Max In fact, I don't really understand where our disagreement is coming from. | ||
| Max |
Ps. Sorry about that last sentence. It was supposed to have been deleted before I posted. -Max | ||
| Max |
Hi, Maryann, To refresh your memory, you wrote, ^^ No bull! I'm thinking when you present your bull head, God grabs you by the horns? Meant nice and funny too. What's the verse about the guy who knocks, THEN the door opens? I'm just not quite agreeing with the bull theory as you presented it. God initiates and maintains life and all that stuff. You have to initiate the knock? You have to put the bull horns in God's space? ^^ Well, I agree and disagree, Maryann. Some of these things we can't figure out. They fade off into the mystery of God. I do believe, though, that it is the Holy Spirit in me -- when I am an unrepentant sinner -- that draws me to knock on Jesus' door. What I know about God's grabbing my bull-head by the horns I know from my experience. Think about Job: Do you think he wanted God to deal with him as he did? Turning Satan loose to torment him? I think Job was just as bull-headed as I was before God let Satan cut him down to size. Also I do believe that Satan does God's bidding. What were you getting at? Still not under law, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, First off!!! I wasn't calling you bull headed;-) That was ment nice and funny to BE funny. When an opportunity to have fun is handed to me on a silver platter like you handed me, I WILL HAVE FUN! Got any more? Okay, you said: "I am saying that God -- not I -- takes the initiative. I am the bull; God takes me by the horns." I VIGOROUSLY DISAGREE! I am saying that when the bulls head or the cows head is presented to God, then and only then does He grab you by the horns. If, God took the inititive and grabbed you by the horns, you would NOT have the free choice we are promised! Matthew 7:7-8 7. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." To me, "Ask and it will be given to you," means that you acted on the belief that something was going to be given to you. ? To me, "seek and you will find," means that you are acting on the belief that there is something to seek. ? To me, "and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." means that you are acting on the belief that there is a reason to knock because there is someone to open the door. ? Now here's the cool part. Here is the promise to the person that acts on his belief: "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Notice; receives..finds..door will open! So simple? Now in that light, does God grab you by the bull head first? Or do you gore the door with your bull head and present the horns to God to forever lead you? When you are forever being lead, it is the God the Holy Spirit doing it. He is living in you now and, I guess, for eternity. Do you still have to go gore the door? I don't think so! 'Cause what you wanted is already IN YOU! You were never promised a bunch of Holy Spirits! Just THE Holy Spirit. And praise God for that! Soooooooooo, again, one MUST, and according to Matthew 7:7, act on their belief to receive what they are asking for. In this discussion that has been a mile long, I think it was FAITH. You said: "What were you getting at?" Did I answer what I was getting at? Or did I miss the question? I have humongusly and immensely enjoyed this whole conversation. Hope you have too, and that it continues. Onward and upward.....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I sometimes have wondered, are we truly free? Or do we just think we're free? This is one you don't have to answer, but may if you wish. Max | ||
| Cindy |
Patti, Hi! you have definitely not worn out your welcome here! In fact, I have treasured your posts! Your emphasis on the finished work of Christ and all the Biblical studies you have presented have been wonderful. Just today I told my husband that he HAD to read your last couple of posts, and by the time he got to the computer he told me that you had posted that you may not return here...So, I must tell you that you are the catalyst to get me to finally speak up!! I would hate you to back off, but could understand if you felt you needed a "breather". It sounds like you have been very busy on other forums. (BTW my husband is Richard,Jr.,who has already e-mailed you). But I do think that even if your posts are occasional, they are helpful for the large "silent majority" of people who read this site. I know they have been a blessing to me! I think Maryann's analysis above is right. It is interesting to read these posts as an observer not knowing either you (Patti) or Max. Max has had some excellent writings on Grace alone, Christ alone...I think you agree more than you can both see at times. Communication can really get mixed up at time, and I know this may sound namby-pamby (I think that's a term meaning kind of wimpy, a cop-out sort of thing) but I think Love covers a lot of our misunderstandings. I pray for that daily; all the time Resting in Christs' perfect fulfillment of that love (the true fulfillment of the Law). I am seeing more and more that the only way we really honor God in any way, shape or form now or ever is by trusting in Christ alone. "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Chrost, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world..." (Galations 6:14) By believing, (trusting, abiding) in Jesus I am doing the will of God, the work that God requires! Of course, I long to be a better person in all of my relationships; and I fall so short. But, praise God,"there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!" (Romans 8) Yes, even our sense of really abiding in Christ may come and go depending on our moods, time of day, amount of sleep, circumstances, etc. But still, His sufficient grace covers it all. Our hope is not based on whether we "feel" a great spiritual closeness with God at all times, but on God's declaration of our perfection because we have believed in His Perfect Son! I love where you mentioned how the Lamb in the sacrificial system was inspected to make sure IT was spotless and perfect!! I really like this from Revelation 5... "And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice,'WHO IS WORTHY to break the seals and open the scroll?' BUT NO ONE IN HEAVEN OR EARTH OR UNDER THE EARTH COULD OPEN THE SCROLL OR EVEN LOOK INSIDE IT. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, 'DO NO WEEP! SEE, THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, THE ROOT OF DAVID, HAS TRIUMPHED. HE IS ABLE TO OPEN THE SCROLL AND ITS SEVEN SEALS'. Then I saw a LAMB, LOOKING AS IF IT HAD BEEN SLAIN..." And I heard a NEW SONG, "YOU ARE WORTH TO TAKE THE SCROLL AND TO OPEN ITS SEALS, BECAUSE YOU WERE SLAIN, AND WITH YOUR BLOOD YOU PURCHASED MEN FOR GOD..." 'WORTHY IS THE LAMB, WHO WAS SLAIN, TO RECEIVE POWER AND WEALTH AND WISDOM AND STRENGTH AND HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE!" Resting in His Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Cindy, welcome to the forum! It's great to see you here! Patti, you do great studies. I hope we'll continue to enjoy them on our forum. Thanks for your thoughtful analyses. Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Hmmmmmmm, did I miss my question or did you change the subject on me? You said: "To refresh your memory, you wrote," Okay, I commented on the bull theory again. I EVEN used some Bible verses. (I may be doing that more now that I have the Bible on the 'puter!) You didn't comment on my take of this subject? Now you say: "I sometimes have wondered, are we truly free? Or do we just think we're free?" That is a very good question. I will ponder that one and get back with you. In the meantime, give me a take on my comments above. Please? I do have a very important question for you. One that I have never had answered satisfactorily since I asked it as a kid! Why in the world doesn't Job have an "e" on the end? BTW, how was your Bible study group? I'm sure there are some really interesting reports to make? Maryann | ||
| George |
I don't think "by their fruits ye shall know them" is fully understood. George | ||
| George |
Just as I have tried to find out just EXACTLY what the soul is and just EXACTLY how we get faith, I think this would be a good time to figure just EXACTLY what works are. For as long as I can remember I have seen two concepts of works being used and argued as the same, this must be cleared up. Anyone want to start today, I am out of time and can't do it myself. George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Been pondering a bit and a bit of Bible hunting too, this is what I came up with in regards to whether or not we really have a choice: Looking at the Bible and it's contents, (atleast in the realm of my somewhat still infantile understanding and study), the theme is; "GOD IS LOVE". Because God is love, He gives us a choice. There seems to be some exceptions. At this time I will plead: Duet. 29:29 29. "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." In the garden of Eden, God gave a command: Gen.2:16-17 16. "And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17. but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." This means to me that if Adam was free (choice) to eat from any tree in the garden, he was also free to choose to obey the command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The fact that he DID choose to eat from the "evil" tree, proves he had a choice! If it was God's choice, or if Adam really didn't have a choice, there would NEVER have been sin? God doesn't choose sin! Look as Joshua: Joshua 24:15 15. "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Joshua very clearly demonstrated that there was a choice between god's and God. He made it very clear that he had already chose God. Now....There seems to be a difference in the promptings of the Holy Spirit. When one is a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit has you by the horns from the INSIDE. When you are a sinner fleeing from God, The Holy Spirit is beside you, whispering in a "still small voice" (is that EWG?) from the OUTSIDE. That is how I see the difference? Look at Hebrews: Hebrews 3:15 15. "As has just been said: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.'" The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to be horn grabbing. He seems to be whispering from the outside. He seems to be offering a choice. Hebrews 4:7 7. "Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.'" Again, much the same thing. The choice is given to not harden your heart IF you hear His voice. Now jOHN 3:16* says: 16. For God so forced his choice on the world that he forced his one and only Son to earth, that whoever is grabbed by the horns and is choked down into believing in him shall not perish but have no choice for eternal life. *unknown version YEH RIGHT! It says: John 3:16 16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. This so clearly says to me that, "whoever believes" is giving me a choice. Now the flip side :-((( I really don't know what to say about this but to plead Duet. 29:29 again: Duet. 29:29 29. "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." Let's look at some things that explode my theory! :-( Psalms 65:4 4. "Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple." Looks like God choose some and brought them to His court? Nehamiah 9:7 7. "You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham." If my re-memory is correct, wasn't Abram somewhat of a heathen when God grabbed him by the horns? It doesn't sound like Abram had a choice, does it? Well, we really don't know for sure on the other hand? Acts 9:3-7 3. "As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5. "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7. The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone." I'd say, knocking a guy over with a heavenly flash and blinding him is certainly grabbing him by the horns! Wouldn't you think so? Since God is God and he apparently chose to do horn grabbing with some, it's not up to me to take those isolated cases and toss the theme of choice that seems to run through the Bible. I really would like any and all comments on this. Do you think I am twisting the Bible to say what I think it should say or what I want it to say? Or am I searching for what it really is saying? The reason I'm asking is; for sometime now, I have been told that I'm only in this for the fight! I don't like being told that!!! :-(((( I fully believe and know that I have the heart of an apologist! I love "mixing" it up with someone. I believe my heart is in the right place. A timid person is not one that would normally have a burn to debate, argue etc etc Bible! I'm NOT a timid person. My heart just BURNS for truth and getting it to the deceived! I'm just not yet fluent like most of you guys are. I'm putting a lot of time into learning and my feathers get a bit ruffled when I'm told that all I want to do is fight! Grrrrr. See, I just vented my frustration at something that should run off me like water off a ducks back! Really though, as much as I hear this, it does sometimes discourage me. Most times, though, it makes my teeth grow! Grrrr! Well, maybe I do have a bad attitude;-) Max, you seem to be one of my favorites to practice on. You make me think. Thank you for that! Grrrrrrr....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I don't have much time to post, so I have to be brief: I've always thought of you as always trying to prevent fights or to mediate between fighters and to douse hot fires with cool water. So, take that! My thought on Saul/Paul's free will: Before God zapped him he wasn't free. At the instant God zapped him he BECAME free. God alone sets us free. We do not have free will in and of ourselves. Still hanging in there under grace (horn-grabbing) alone, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Upon re-reading my above post, I may not have made really clear what my feathers were ruffled about. I'm being told that I'm NOT studying, posting, reading etc to gain knowledge and spread truth. I'm doing it just for arguements sake, to prove a point. Nooo, it's not that I'm fighting anyone here on this Forum or anywhere else visiously. It is my motive for study and debate that is being questioned and that makes my feathers stand straight up in the air! To think that I'm pretty regularly told that all I want to do is win an arguement and am not interested in truth, is just a little more than this little mortal creature can deal with at times! Grrrr. Sorry to re-vent on this. I was just about to 'splode. You said: "My thought on Saul/Paul's free will: Before God zapped him he wasn't free. At the instant God zapped him he BECAME free. God alone sets us free. We do not have free will in and of ourselves." Could you go a little further on that thought and comment a bit on the rest of the "free will" issues if you have a little more time to do it? Please keep after me. I really need that little push that you seem to give me. Believe it or not, I DO get discouraged once in a while;-) Maryann | ||
| Max |
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN! Hey, all you people who, God-like, are reading Maryann's motives and concluding that all she wants to do is to fight and win battles: Lucky you! I have several million acres of ocean front property in Kansas just to sell to you! For details, send $$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Max | ||
| Max |
Maryann, More on how free Scripture says we really are later. FAF frequent-posters, Could share your views? Max | ||
| Colleentinker |
I think our free will is another paradox. After all, Truth is always paradoxical (at least from our three-dimensional perspective!). You said it well, Max; Saul wasn't free until God grabbed him; then he was free. The book of Jeremiah says that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful; no man can know it. We're not capable of being free as natural humans. We're slaves to the sinful nature. God sets us free when we accept him and the new birth he offers. But then we become a slave to Him! I think our human definition of freedom is inadequate. From an eternal perspective, (which we can only glimpse once our souls become alive and connected to Jesus forever!) freedom looks completely different than it looks to natural mortals. The natural human thinks freedom means being able to do whatever makes him happy at any given moment, whether that thing is self-destructive or not. Human freedom means being able to make choices without someone overruling our decisions. From an eternal perspective, however, freedom looks much bigger than being about ME. Eternal freedom begins to look like being united with ultimate love. It begins to look like being free to make choices for the good of others instead of for my own wants. It begins to look like being in an eternally growing relationship with our Lover and Creator and with others who are also one with him. Are we free, truly? I don't know. I know I wasn't free, even if I could make my own decisions, before I met Jesus and his grace. Am I free now? Compared to my life before, I feel positively liberated! Can I do whatever I want? Yes. Do I do the things I felt guilty about before I was free? Generally not. In fact, I find I am less and less interested in many of the things I wanted to do in the past. Some people would look at me and think, BO-RING! But I am not bored. I've never felt more alive or more peaceful about my life. Is my life smoother now? Not externally. It's probably even more hectic and demanding. But internally life is better. I'm slowly learning to give up my "rights" to my life and my time and let God show me what he wants me to do. That certainly doesn't SOUND free. But it is freedom. And it's a paradox. Colleen | ||
| BRUCE H |
George ---- I think this would be a good time to figure just EXACTLY what works are. ------ George, If you went down to a rest Home and took care of old people every week for years, and you did not bring one person to the saving grace of God would that be work or not. If you stood in soup lines or handed out blanckets to homeless people for years but yet you did not bring people to the saving grace of God would that be work. I believe that this work would be called as Paul put it DUNG or cow poop. Know if you did bring sombody to the saving grace of God would it be you or God? The answere would be our Lord Jesus, so thus the only work that we can do is watch God work through use and he will only do that If we obey him and have a very close intimate relationship with Him. For even Jesus says JOHN 14:10 "but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. So as you can see I believe that it is God and God alone that does the works. But George we do have a work to do John 6:28-29 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent. SO THE ONLY WORK THAT WE ARE TO DO IS BELIEVE!!!! THEN IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US WHO DOES THE FATHERS WORK, AND THAT IS A WORK THAT WE ALONE CANNOT DO. BRUCE HEINRICH | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bruce, Very, very well put and profound. I can hardly wait for George to see this one in the morning! Thank you......Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, I just wanted to tell you that I have been told some of the same things you have been. that I just like to argue, why get so worked up about things, it's not that big of deal, etc... I know exactly what you mean when you say your heart burns for the truth! I'm rather outspoken on the all-suffiency of Grace. Sometimes, though, I just think after some discouraging discussion, I'm just not going to be so interested in these things, just calm down, and not try to convince everyone of the wonderful freedom in Christ alone. But then...and I love the passage in Jeremiah 20:9 where he says, "But if I say, 'I will not mention him or speak any more in his name' his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot". Isn't that great?? That burning is put there by the Holy Spirit. As long as our zeal is based on the knowledge of the rightousness that comes from God, manifested on the Cross (see Romans 10) and is not based on establishing our own righteousness, it's a good thing. I pray for wisdom to know when and how to speak with others. I usually tend to speak first, and think later! In debt to His Mercy always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Cindy for that! Sometimes you just have it, plumb up to your eye balls! Maryann |
