Archive through June 19, 2000 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Thoughts on Faith » Archive through June 19, 2000 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I agree very much with your observation on the freedom that we have in Christ now. It is liberating! compared to before without the understanding of the grace of God...How do you like this statement? Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind...and then do as you please!

Bruce, Hello! I'm just joining in and getting more addicted to this place! Thank-you for the wonderful post above. Doing the work that God requires... is believing in Jesus!! And then, resting in, and maintaining that belief, be open to, and watch God work through us... Always realizing it is all about God not about us! The glory or boasting is all on Jesus!!

Believing on Him,
Cindy
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,

Somehow this discussion is escaping me. I need to go crash and dream up some good thoughts and questions.

Max you said:

"Still hanging in there under grace (horn-grabbing) alone,"

I must be tired? How are "horn grabbing" and "grace" synonymous? Hmmmmmmm?

Maryann
George
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

Very good but you didn't go far enough. To be very clear, when you mention the rest home and the soup line, you should also say, if these things are done for the express purpose of getting to heaven they are as "dung". In and of themselves they are good things to do, even if we don't bring anyone to Christ. It is the MOTIVE that counts.

When you talked about watching God work through us and obeying Him you are on the right track, but not there yet. When we do good things like working in the soup line with the express purpose of geting to heaven, these are the works that are no good, BUT as it says in John 6:29, the work that we must do is believe.

So you see we must DO something, and when we do something we can call it work. If we call it work and are thinking of work we do with our hands, we have a big problem. What about the people that can't move from the neck down, how are they going to get to heaven? THEY CAN'T, as they can not use their hands.

THINK ABOUT IT, really think about it, if it is working with our hands that is going to get us to heaven, then WE have decided the poor guy that can't use his hands is GOING TO HELL.

THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT, so it must be some other kind of work that gets us there. When we do the "work of believing", we are doing something. And when we do something we CAN call it work. We can call it work because Christ Himself called it work.

What kind of work is this? It is the work of the mind, work that is done in the brain, work that even the one that can't move anything from the neck down can do.

So, here we have the two kinds of work that are used interchangably and cause so much trouble. If a person means one of them and the other person thinks the other one, there is a lot of usless arguing going on, and this is what I have seen happen over the last 40 or more years.

The two kinds of work:

Work of the mind.

Work of the body.

The work of the mind = belief, trust, obedience. These are things that MUST BE DONE.

The work of the body = anything that is done by movenent. These are good things that can be done BUT DON'T HAVE TO BE DONE. But, they will be done if you have done the work of the mind.

So when we say "works", lets say what kind of works we are talking about so everyone will understand.

Now lets attack the word "free" and "free choice" in the same manner as I have done with "works" above. O.K.?

George
George
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

It looks like I was pointing the finger directly at you but the above post was ment for everyone in general.

To everyone,

If you disagree with my thoughts, please tell me which part you disagree with, exactly which part you disagree with, please.

I would like to get a dialog going on my ideas.

George
Max
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

I wrote, "Still hanging in there under grace (horn-grabbing) alone, Max."

Then you wrote, ^^ I must be tired? How are "horn grabbing" and "grace" synonymous? Hmmmmmmm? ^^

My aswer:

Some people think that grace is passive. Big mistake! God's grace is the most active thing in the universe. Nothing could be more active than this:

"For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Who was acting when God zapped Saul/Paul between the eyes with a laser beam on the road to Damascus? The God! Certainly not the human.

You have quoted -- and rightly so -- Luke 77, where Jesus says people in need should knock, ask, etc. for what they need. But obviously, Jesus is not talking here about unsaved people seeking salvation. He is talking about saved people needing to take some action to get their needs met.

As far as salvation and repentance is concerned, God does ALL the acting. We are limited to responding. Grace is ACTIVE, not passive: "Where sin abounded there did grace superabound!" (That's straight from the Greek.) Here is a "knocking" text more relevant than the one you quoted -- Revelation 3:19-20 NIV:

^^ "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone heaers my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." ^^

The same is true with my bull-headed personal experience with God: I was bull-headed in my ways till God grabbed me by the horns!

Praise him!

And bless you,

Max

Ps. Next post, in YOUR HONOR, Maryann, I'm going to reprint a poem I wrote while in college at La Sierra.
Max
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear everyone,

In honor of Maryann, I am reprinting here a poem I wrote in college at La Sierra. Maryann, this poem is meant to show you how God's active grace grabbed me by the horns of my bull-head.

GOD OF THE DESERT

.....I

On the burning sand I walked
toward the cool oasis;
I had a map.

So when God came by and offered
me his, I laughed and said,
"I don't need it."

But he wouldn't stop bothering me;
every time I looked around
he was following.

When I stopped among the rocks
to look for water once
he caught up.

.....II

Holding out a canteen of water
he said, "If you drink this,
you will never thirst."

Knowing this was unreasonable,
I said, "Over the hill
is a spring."

But the water I found was foul;
around it human bones were
bleaching in the sun.

Exhausted I fell beside the pool,
defiant, trying to rest;
I couldn't.

....III

When God caught up, he said,
"If you want shelter,
I have a tent."

"I don't need it," I lied;
he ignored my lie,
said nothing.

Suddenly, leaping to my feet,
I raced across the sand,
my eyes fixed.

I threw away my map --
there it was!
The Oasis!

.....IV

Tired, bleeding, but triumphant,
I looked over my shoulder;
he was running after.

He ran with a pack on his back:
water, medicine, bandages --
I scorned them.

"Leave me alone, God!"
He slowed, then
stopped.

Far in the distance the oasis
was shining in the sun!
I would show him!

.....V

I stumbled on a long long time
before I knew the oasis
was a mirage.

All around, the night turned black;
I was thirsty, bleeding, tired;
the desert was cold.

I stopped and sat down on a rock,
my head in my hands;
I was lost.

But I heard a sound behind me;
and when I looked around,
there was God.
_______________________________

Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto him,

Max
Maryann
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Max,

I'm almost speechless again;-) That aught to be framed and marketed like "Footsteps". It most definately will be printed out at my house! Thank you. BTW, I'm honored to be honored! :-)

As to the other. I'm re-concepting. Yeh, I got to say that dying on the cross was NOT passive.

I'm still thinking about Luke 7:7? You say saved huh?

Well, what about Hebrews 3 and 4?

Well, it's Friday and I have a lot of work to do!;-)

Still thinking.......Maryann
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, you explained God's active grace so well. I agree; grace is all about God pursuing us and drawing us (active) to himself.

George, I have one semantic suggestion for your "two kinds of works": the works of the mind and the works of the body. Actually, I believe that the work God requires of us is actually in our souls. It involves the mind, or course, because we have to think about what we perceive, but people who resist God are often quite active with their minds, analyzing and explaining to themselves (and to anyone who will listen!) why God doesn't make sense.

Belief in Jesus is a spiritual work. Spiritual things are spritually discerned and are foolshness to men's minds. (Read I Cor. 2)

I believe that without a reborn soul, even our good impulses are coming from our sinful flesh. Feeding the hungry, while noble and ultimately a reflection of the goodness of God, counts for absolutely nothing if we resist the transforming, re-birthing love of Jesus!

Colleen
Max
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone:

I remember a president of the United Way, which is actively involved in feeding the hungry. This man embezzeled $$ millions frum UW before he was caught. I would say this is an example of someone feeding the hungry which was only the work of Satan.

Max
Bruce H
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Colleen.
Beliefe is of the Heart not the head.
Knowledge puffs up.
Remember the pharasees, you had to memorize most
of the Old testament to be one, they had all the
head knowledge that they could have, yet they
crucified Jesus.

Bruce Heinr
Bruce H
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George

You are right Faith is active, but be careful not
to judge others because you may not see the
changes or activity in them, for God work
different ways with different people.

The Bible says you can be incurraged by seeing the
changes in yourself, but if you dont see changes
in a loved one you yourself will never know, which
leaves you with prayer as the work that you must
do for them.

Bruce Heinrich

Put on the full armor of God!!!


This is my new saying, do you like it.


B
George
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and Bruce,

You are trying ,but you don't get it, what I am saying that is. All I am trying to say is that we need to be sure we are talking about apples and apples and not apples and oranges when we or any one else talk.

Colleen, Where is the soul if it is not in the mind. Take away the brain and what do you have? nothing. Perhaps obedience, trusting and belief take place in the soul, the point is that we see that it is different than what we do with our hands. We just have to be sure which one we are talking about when we are talking about "works".

Apples and apples NOT apples and oranges.

Bruce , I was not talking about judging anyone. Where is the heart that you are talking about if it is not in the brain somewhere. Here again I just want to be sure we know just what things we are talking about. Are we talking about works that we do with our hands or are we talking about works that are done somewhere else.

This post is a little short and to the point but I sent the good one into cyberspace.

The best to all----George
Richard, Jr.
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 5:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't man a composite of both spirit and body? Isn't it hard to separate the body from the mind, or the mind from the body? Just a thought.
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Absolutely, Richard. Without the mind, we can't understand or think about what we learn through our spirits communing with the Holy Spirit. I don't pretend to understand how all this fits together and interacts, but I am convinced that the mind is not the soul, and vice-versa.

I'm also convinced that until we are born from above, our souls are dead (separated from God; non-functional) and unable to perceive spiritual truth. That's why so many people argue interminably about theological interpretations. Intellectually we can dissect the statement in the Bibleóand come up with as many different interpretations as there are scholars.

But when our souls come alive, we become able to discern truth. As one of our Friday FAF'ers said a couple of weeks ago, "Isn't it interesting how the Holy Spirit reveals the Same Things to so many different people?" The verifying of truth is that Christ-followers all learn from the same Spirit, and even though there are minor differences of interpretation, true Christ-followers sealed with the Holy Spirit all slowly begin to perceive God and reality in similar ways. They become unified in the Spirit.

This phenomenon is not intellectual!
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay Guys,

Referring to:

"By George on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 08:39 am:"

Let me try to help you out with what George was trying to get across.

Bruce said:

"But George we do have a work to do John 6:28-29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the
work of God, that ye BELIEVE on him whom he hath
sent.

SO THE ONLY WORK THAT WE ARE TO DO IS BELIEVE!!!!"

When George read that, the lights went on!! He said; sooooo, there are different kinds of works!!! 1...There are the works like trying to keep the law to "maintain" your salvation.
2...There are the works that one tries to do to "make himself ready" to be saved. 3...There is the work that you do "because" you are saved. 4...There is the WORK that you are REQUIRED to do, which is BELIEVING.

He saw that the word, "WORKS", scares the spit out of everyone. Why? Because it is NOT defined! Now it IS defined!

4...There is the WORK that you are REQUIRED to do, which is BELIEVING. THIS IS ìREQUIREDî BY GOD!

3...There is the work that you do "because" you are saved. These are the "FRUITS" of the Spirit. These are the works that are done BECAUSE you are SAVED, not TO BE SAVED!

1...There are the works like trying to keep the law to "maintain" your salvation.
2...There are the works that one tries to do to "make himself ready" to be saved. This is the dung or cow poop that the legalistic, scratch and crawl your way to heaven require.

In George's mind, everything is clear. A lot of the disagreement in a lot of discussions is the unwillingness or the inability to accept or admit that someone is talking about 1 and 2 while the other is talking about 3 and 4!

My opinion? I think George has made an INVALUABLE observation. I think that I made George's thoughts a little more clear. I think that you guys will be able to carry on now that you understand what he was trying to say.

George,

If I miss-understood you, I'm sorry! I really think this is what you were trying to say though!

A sister to all of ya.....Maryann

Richard...'bout time you got back;-)
George
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While the mind and the body are together in a way that it would not be posible to seperate them, you would have a hard time thinking with your hand!!
Nor could you cut a string with your mind.

Lets get real here. Why do you want to make it so complicate? The very fact that you can't see what I am talking about shows that we REALLY need to talk about it.

I AM TALKING ABOUT ONE THING AND YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

We are not talking about the same thing.

Can any of you see that? If so please tell me. If you can't please tell me that too.

Richard T. can you see what I am talking about?

Got to go--George
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, Hi! I'm kind of confused now!! I have enjoyed reading your observations and then Maryann's "translations"! Do you think they are a fair explanation of your views?

I like your distinction between the work of the mind (belief, trust, obedience), work that must be done; and the work of the body (anything done by movement; these are things that don't have to be done, but usually will be if we have done the work of the mind!

I think it's interesting you linked belief, trust, and obedience together. I think Scripture also puts these together. Belief=obedience and disbelief= disobedience. See Hebrews 3:18,19: "And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief." And also, "Now we who have believed enter that rest...Hebrews 4:3

I have looked on obedience in a legalistic way (what are all the things I must do to "measure up" to God's standard?), but now I realize it is belief, trusting and resting in God's promises!! We obey when we do the "work " that God requires: "Then they asked him, what must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent" John 6:28,29

Blessings to you, George!

In debt to His mercy always,
Cindy
Patti
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,
Bless you!
Great points (especially disbelief = disobedience, a la Hebrews 3 and 4.

I think you have made a great stride in disentangling this thread (NPI :)
I was very confused, I wasn't sure really what the issue was, and really didn't know what to say anymore.

Thank you for your kind remarks and your Christ-centered messages.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MAX, I just re-read your poem above, GOD OF THE DESERT. I enjoy your creativity... I've never attempted poetry, stories, or parables like you, Patti and Maryann have.(these are the three here I can think of right now...) They have been very inspiring to me!!

Your poem reminded me of the story of the poet Francis Thompson, author of "The Hound of Heaven." I read about him in the book by Ravi Zacharias entitled "Can Man Live Without God?" (another good book I've enjoyed!).

Thompson left home in conflict and lived the life of a vagabond on the streets of London, satisfying his opium addiction during the day around the Charing Cross district and at night sleeping by the banks of the River Thames. Occasionally he would write letters to the newspaper editor on scraps of paper, responding to some article he had read. The Editor recognized the talent of the writing, but there was never a return address.

Although he kept running from God, apparently the Scriptures and the story of Jacob and the ladder to heaven kept haunting him. As he continued to dwell on that story, a conversion in his life took place...

Listen to his words:

O world invisible, we view thee,
O world intangible, we touch thee,
O world unknowable, we know thee,
Inapprehensible, we clutch thee!

Does the fish soar to find the ocean,
The eagle plunge to find the air--
Do we ask of the stars in motion
If they have rumor of thee there?

Not where the wheeling systems darken,
And our benumbed conceiving soars!--
The drift of pinions, would we hearken,
Beats at our own clay-shuttered doors.

The angels keep their ancient places;--
Turn but a stone, and start a wing!
'Tis ye, 'tis your estranged faces,
That miss the many-splenoured thing.

But when so sad thou canst not sadder
Cry--and upon they so sore loss
Shall shine the traffic of Jacob's ladder
Pitched between Heaven and Charing Cross.

Yea, in the night, my Soul, my Daughter,
Cry--clinging Heaven by the hems;
And lo, Christ walking on the water
Not of Gennesaret, but Thames!


Wow! I have felt like that, "clinging Heaven by the hems!! In this book, Ravi Zacharias goes on to say that the older we get, the more it takes to fill our hearts with Wonder..."and only God is big enough to do that. Not only is He big enough, but in Christian term He is also near enough."

God kept after Francis Thompson just like He's kept after all of us! The chapter ends with Ravi's words, "How do your find that wonder? May I suggest to you, dear friend, that it is not in argument, nor is it in mere dogma. It is not even found in the church. There is a clue to meaning in our experiences--that clue is in relationships. The centerpiece of history, says the Bible, is Christ Himself, and you will find unending wonder in a relationship with Him."

Amen....

As always, by grace alone,

Cindy
George
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2000 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cindy,

Thank you. I think you have got it.

I have been wanting to write something about catch words and words that make people go blind and not see or hear anything that is said afterwards. The word "works" is one of the worst, but there are many others. We need to take these words and figure out what they mean to each of us so we can come up with a common definition. Not being the best keyboard conversationalist, I guess that didn't come through.

Maryann and I are able to get instant feed back on our statments to eachother till we get our ideas across,and most of the time she has explained them right.

I think you see there are two kinds of work, one kind Christ says is O.K. the other the Bible says will do us no good. Is this a paradox? It is if they are the same kind of work, but it is NOT if they are different.

If the two kinds of work are:
1--The work we do because we are saved, and

2--The work we do to get saved

we have too much room for disagrement.

To choice #2 people will say, we don't have to work to be saved, all we have to do is believe. Others will say YES we have to keep the law to be saved.

There is to much room in #2 to misunderstand what is said so how can we state it so people will know what we are saying? The statment is right you know.(the work we must do is to believe, Christ said so)

Does this make clear my line of thought? If it does not please let me know

George

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration