| Author | Message | ||
| sherry |
That's why texts like "not having sex with my brother" may still be appropriate from Leviticus, but considering myself unclean for 7 days when it's that time of the month isn't? Those texts used to bug the heck out of me...thought God was quite a chauvanist (Sp?) for that. Anyhow. Tis interesting though. I will have to study the Law much more completely. It sounds like we're picking and chosing what we consider good stuff from the Old and what is not. I guess I find that confusing. I want to honor God above all else though. By the way, does Max = Jude? Style of writing is so the same. Anyhow, God bless all! | ||
| Max |
And God is blessing you too, Sherry. At least it seems so to me. Yes, Max = Jude. But I'm not posting as Jude any more. I needed Jude for awhile. But no longer. Sherry, there are plenty of laws or rules of conduct in the New Testament to cover everything from the Old. One doesn't need Leviticus to know that having sex with one's sibling is wrong, for that rule is covered in the New. Paul says plenty about incest. In the Corinthian church there was a case of a man "living with" his father's wife. Paul said, "Throw that man out of your congregation!" Apparently because the man wasn't responsive to Christian counsel and was unrepentant. That's not to say we need to throw out Leviticus and the rest of the OT books. But their purpose is different now. As far as "the law" is concerned, people need the Old Testament to show us our need of Christ. As far as "the prophets" are concerned, we need it to show how Christ's coming was foretold. We need to study the old covenant to prepare us to understand the new. As far as picking and choosing from the Old Testament is concerned, that's what the Seventh-day Adventists do. For instance, they "pick and choose" the "no shellfish" rule, but leave the "no wool and linen mix" rule out of their lives. On the other hand, the true new covenant Christian does not have to poke around and "pick and choose" in the Old Testament. For only the moral aspects are still applicable -- and those can ALL be found in the New Testament in a vastly improved form and lived out in the life of Jesus Christ. The only things which are not "moral per se," but are more-or-less arbitrary rules given to us by Christ, are the symbols, such as baptism, the bread and wine of the Lord's supper, and very little else. Sherry, I am utterly convinced that you want to honor God above all else. And if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess him with your mouth every chance you get, you ARE honoring God above all else, for he IS God. You honor God above all else by crucifying your fleshly desires every day in response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. You honor God by being broken and contrite and repentant over your sins that you commit every hour of every day. You honor God by growing in grace, by showing changes in your life, by beholding him who was crucified for us. And as far as I can tell, you are doing all these things. G+0=P, Max/Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hi, Max! You look good without the mask! I am going to take a very nitpicky issue with what you said to Sherry: You honor God above all else by crucifying your fleshly desires every day in response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. You honor God by being broken and contrite and repentant over your sins that you commit every hour of every day. You honor God by growing in grace, by showing changes in your life, by beholding him who was crucified for us. You may have been speaking specifically to and of her when you said, "You honor...," etc. and I don't want anyone to think I am taking issue with that. So I am going to assume that you were speaking generally, and you meant, "One honors God..", etc. Max, the only way we can "honor" God is to believe on the One Whom He has sent. If all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, as I have heard you espouse, then there is no "honor" for God in any of our works; only in our faith in the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, our trust that He was more than worthy of "power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing." To Him, and Him alone, be all honor and glory forever. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, I have to go now. So I don't have time to say any more than this: If your flesh is not crucified as a result of your encounter with Jesus, then you CANNOT honor God in any way, shapeor form NOW OR EVER and your belief/faith is BOGUS: You are a weed and not a wheat, a goat and not a sheep, a bad fish and not a good. -Max | ||
| Plain Patti |
With all due respect, Max, I am quite surprised to hear you say this. If your flesh is not crucified as a result of your encounter with Jesus, then you CANNOT honor God in any way, shapeor form NOW OR EVER and your belief/faith is BOGUS: All I can see that you have done is to put us back in the camp of legalism. Our acceptance with God is complete when we believe in Jesus Christ. Faith plus nothing brings us salvation. Of course, you have not defined "crucified flesh." If you mean "submitting one's will to God," as the popular cliche goes, then there is only one way to submit to God's will: John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Max: You are a weed and not a wheat, a goat and not a sheep, a bad fish and not a good. I am absolutely exactly as you describe me in my own flesh. But I am perfect in the sight of God. Because of Jesus Christ and His doing and dying. Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." And before you can say that this refers only to the unconverted soul, listen to what Paul says about himself, the converted champion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the known world: Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Now I could agree wholeheartedly with your statement if our definition of "crucified flesh" meant a constant and permanent recognition of our inability to please God with the works of our hands. Otherwise, I quite frankly do not see any difference between what you are saying and what the SDAs with which I converse on other forums are saying: that we must work to prove ourselves acceptable to God. And that, dear friend ( and I am not being condescending here) is back in the legalistic camp. This is why Luther formulated the phrase "justification by faith alone." It is the doing and dying of Christ alone that is the basis for our acceptance with God. The greatest honor (the only honor) that we can truly give Him is to believe on the salvation that He so freely offers. The verse that sparked a Reformation throughout the world: Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." As much as I appreciate your wisdom and respect your opinions, I will not allow anyone to put me back under the law, which is what it appears you are saying when you say: If your flesh is not crucified as a result of your encounter with Jesus, then you CANNOT honor God in any way, shapeor form NOW OR EVER and your belief/faith is BOGUS. I have had this same discussion with many SDAs and with several Catholics. What you are saying is very much what they believe. I pray I am misinterpreting you. (Wouldn't be the first time, huh?) :) God bless you, Max, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Wow, I'm thinking that Max is saying to flee evil? I know that is in the Bible somewhere. I think I understand what he is saying and it is not ment to put anyone back under the law, just more like dodge the devil. Like walk past a porno shop, NOT walk in it. I'm working on a post that may clear this up. Should be done with it in a few days. Correct me if I'm wrong Max. Maryann | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST HAVE CRUCIFIED THE SINFUL NATURE, WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. ^^ G+0=P, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti and Maryann, Believe me, I KNOW what it is to crucify the sinful nature. And I KNOW it is not legalism. It is RELATIONSHIP with God. God is holy and I am holy. But there's a difference: God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is holy FROM my sinful nature! I am holy TO God's sinless nature! Do you get the direction here? If we belong to Christ we always strive to move toward him, not away. Bottom line: If we do not crucify our sinful nature, with its passions and desires, on a daily, even hourly, basis, we do not belong to Christ, we never have belonged to him, and we never will. This is a matter of grace alone and faith alone. It is not a matter of earning salvation. All my righteous deeds are "filthy rags," that I confess. But they are "filthy rags" done within the borders of the kingdom of heaven, done from within Christ's all-surrounding ocean of pure grace, done within the context of salvation, justification, sanctification (holiness), and sinlessness in Christ alone. "But the fruit [work] of the Spirit is [still] love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Still under grace alone, Max Ps. I forgot to include the Scripture reference to my previous post. It is Galatians 5:16-26 NIV. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Max, I understand and agree. The end of I Corinthians 9 talks about running the race to win the prize. He also talks about going into strict training. Paul also says he beats his body to bring it into submission. This "body beating" only makes sense in the context of the metaphor in which Paul uses it. When people train for races, they do not train themselves. They work under the direction of a trainer. God is our trainer. He disciplines us (Hebrews 12), and he lets us know what he wants from us. When we accept Jesus, we are saved from that point on. We no longer have to worry about achieving victory. We are coming FROM victory, not working TOWARD it. Whatever Jesus brings into our lives for our discipline will be things he asks us to do for our own growth. But we will not be doing them to achieve victory. We will be acting on these things from a position of victory already achieved! But we will have to work on them. It's only when we act on what God brings to our attention that we will know more and grow more. If we refuse to do what he brings to us to do, we will be stuck there. We do have to "beat our bodies". But that "beating" is done under the inspiration and inside the love of the Holy Spirit. God walks with us through the discipline we must endure and from which we must learn. And discipline is never fun, but it is a sign of God's love for us! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Re-look at my post. Do I or do I not understand where you are coming from? "Wow, I'm thinking that Max is saying to flee evil? I know that is in the Bible somewhere. I think I understand what he is saying and it is not ment to put anyone back under the law, just more like dodge the devil. Like walk past a porno shop, NOT walk in it." Fleeing evil is crushing the devil isn't it? Walking past the porno shop is crushing the sinful nature? (that is just an easy example that came to my mind). These are things that a saved person may have to struggle with. Other's may have other things to crush. And again, that is NOT putting you under the law!!!! Maryann | ||
| Max |
Yes, you are absolutely right, Maryann, bless you. I understood your heart, even if I may have misunderstood your words. -Max | ||
| Plain Patti |
Believe me, I KNOW what it is to crucify the sinful nature. And I KNOW it is not legalism. It is RELATIONSHIP with God. God is holy and I am holy. I can see that it is no use pursuing this thread. Our relationship with God is in Christ Jesus. It is perfect, because it is by faith only, and not a product of our hands. When you say things like "I know what it is to crucify the sinful nature," just what do you mean? Are you sinless now? If not, when will you be? You speak of your own holiness, and that terrifies me. I know, like Paul, that nothing good dwells in this body of mine. I don't like where you are going with this, Max, because it seems to me that your testimony is now to your own experience and your own righteousness (albeit inspired of the Holy Spirit) instead of to the worthiness of Christ alone. And Colleen, please forgive me, but this notion of "beating our bodies" sounds very much like the RCC doctrine of penance. The NT Christians were a rejoicing, hopeful, celebratory group of people. Yes, they were persecuted, but you are speaking of self-persecution. What more beating of one's soul does one have to do than to realize that there is nothing, absolutely nothing one can do to make him/herself acceptable to God? What more crucifying of one's self can one do than to realize that we are totally depraved and that there is no way to be acceptable to God except the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ? We do not have to atone for our sinfulness; Jesus Christ is our full and complete atonement. We can REST and live as citizens of His kingdom, full of the assurance of His grace. Romans 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Grace and peace to all, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, I am holy only because Christ in me is holy. Notice that Paul calls all the sinners in the churches he visits holy. Rome in Romans 1:7. Corinth in 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 2 Corinthians 1:1. Ephesus in Ephesians 1:1. Philippi in Philippians 1:1. Colosse in Colossians 1:2. Therefore I have the right to call myself holy, though like Paul himself I be chief of sinners. Under grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, You wrote, ^^ When you say things like "I know what it is to crucify the sinful nature," just what do you mean? Are you sinless now? If not, when will you be? ^^ I mean that I have had an "Isaiah like" experience with God: ^^ In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the timple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory." At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. "Woe to me! I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of UNCLEAN lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty." Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live caol in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." ^^ Therefore, Isaiah, "a man of UNCLEAN lips," was holy, dependant upon the future sacrifice of Christ. And in that same way I am holy, dependant upon the past sacrifice of Christ. His holiness, however, was different from God's. Isaiah was holy TO God. God was holy FROM Isaiah. And again, that is the way I am holy. I am holy TO God, while God is holy FROM me. For a Christian to shy away from calling himself holy in this sense is akin to the SDA heresy of saying it is a sin to call one's self "saved." But the equation is mathmatically precise: If you can call yourself "saved," you can also call yourself "holy" -- as long as you realize that your holiness procedes from Christ alone and is of the "holy TO," not "holy FROM" variety. More next post, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I posted earlier: "Fleeing evil is crushing the devil isn't it? Walking past the porno shop is crushing the sinful nature? (that is just an easy example that came to my mind). These are things that a saved person may have to struggle with. Other's may have other things to crush. And again, that is NOT putting you under the law!!!" Can you please respond to that? I really think that is what Max (and I) are refering to. I do have a disagreement with Max on something somewhat related to this discussion. I will hopefully posting something interesting in a few days. It will be in the thread " Witness in the Workpace". I hope you will look for it. It "may" shake up some computer screens! Maryann:-) | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, When I say, ìI know what it is to crucify the sinful nature,î I mean what Paul means in Galatians 5:24: ìThose who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.î In other words, SINCE I DO belong to Christ Jesus, I have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.î This is a daily, moment-by-moment work. It requires broken-ness, a meek and contrite heart. But the rewards in heaven ñ which is among us here and now ñ are immeasurable. What does Paulís passage mean to you? Am I sinless now? Yes. I became sinless when Isaiahís ìliving coal from off the altarî touched my unclean lips. But since I sin all the time anyway, I am all-the-time both sinless and sinful. It has nothing to do with making myself acceptable to God. You wrote, ìI don't like where you are going with this, Max, because it seems to me that your testimony is now to your own experience and your own righteousness (albeit inspired of the Holy Spirit) instead of to the worthiness of Christ alone. What seems to you to be true about me is partially correct and partially incorrect. The correct part: Yes my testimony is now to my own experience. To who elseís experience could I testify? Consider the experience with God (Jesus Christ) of the man born blind (John 9) whom Jesus healed. The Pharisees ìsummoned the man who had been blind. ëGive glory to God,í they said. ëWe know this man [Jesus] to be a sinner.í He replied, ëWhether he is a sinner of not, I donít know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!íî John 9:23-25 NIV. Saying, as I do, ìNow I see!î is identical to saying, ìI am sinless!î for it is wholly Christís miracle in my life. The incorrect part: ìIt seems to me that your testimony is now to Ö your own righteousness (albeit inspired of the Holy Spirit) instead of to the worthiness of Christ alone.î The truth: No, Patti, itís not to my own righteousness inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is to the worthiness of Christ alone. Shortly after I was baptized at about age 11 I was shocked, chagrined and saddened to find myself unchanged. I had no idea then of the righteousness, the holiness, the sinlessness of Christ alone in my life. Now I know that ìnothing good lives in me, that, is in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do ñ this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.î Romans 7:18-20 NIV. But later, in the next chapter, Paul writes, ìTherefore, brothers, we have an obligation ó but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit YOU PUT TO DEATH THE MISDEEDS OF THE BODY, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ìAbba, Father.î The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Godís children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs ñ heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.î Grace and peace to you, Patti, and hoping that you stay around, Max | ||
| Rolaant |
Max, If I understand you correctly, I don't think you can validly make the claim that you have crucified the sinful nature and are now sinless. Do you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and body perfectly? Do you love perfectly your neighbor as yourself? No. None of us does. 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I realize you testify that your experience tells you that you are sinless, but experience must be tested against Scripture, and Scripture militates against your experience. | ||
| Max |
Hi, Rolaant, I agree with you: I cannot validly make the claim that I have crucified my sinful nature and am now sinless. I also agree that I do not love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and body perfectly. Nor do I love perfectly my neighbor as myself. I do not say I have no sin. Nor do I testify that my experience tells me that I am sinless. Furthermore, I agree that experience must be tested against Scripture. The ONLY thing in you post that I disagree with is that Scripture militates against my experience. Could you show me how it does? Under grace plus nothing, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi, Maryann, Bless your soul, you wrote something I intended to respond to, but didn't for some reason I can't remember. Maybe it was too late last night. Anyway, you wrote: ^^ Fleeing evil is crushing the devil, isn't it? Walking past the porno shop is crushing the sinful nature? (That is just an easy example that came to my mind.) These are things that a saved person may have to struggle with. Others may have other things to crush. And again, that is NOT putting you under the law!!! ^^ My answer: Yes, you understood what I was trying to say perfectly. Right now I'm trying to understand how former Adventists can criticize current Adventists for not having the courage to say, "I am saved." Yet they -- the formers --can't bring themselves to say, "I am sinless." I think the reasons may be exactly the same. It's hard to shed the old mindset that is sooo reluctant to let Christ's righteousness shine out. If we are saved at all, we are saved because of Christ's righteousness alone. But by the same token, if we are sinless at all, we are sinless because of Christ's sinlessness as well. Christ's salvation is "all of a piece." We don't get to carve it up. When you allow Christ into your heart you are: saved, justified, sanctified, and perfected -- instantly and eternally! What's not to like? It is, at least I think so, dropping back into legalism not to have the courage to confess that you are sinless in Christ. If God looks on my heart and doesn't see my sinfulness there, but sees only Christ's sinlessness there, then declares me sinless, then why can't I agree with God? If I am saved in Christ alone, then I am sinless in Christ alone. Am I wrong? Not under the law, Max | ||
| Bruce H |
You guys where did the truth come from that you have??? Was it from words of wisdom? Was it from your analysis of the BIBLE? Was it from a great teacher? Was it from a prophet? Or was it a gift of God |
