| Author | Message | ||
| George |
Patti, Almost any time there is this much disagreement about something and both sides seem to be right or at least have SOME things right, it is because they are disagreeing about two different things. With each side being "right" it is impossible for either to move to the center where there can be agrement. If you are right you can't move. So how do we find what we disagree on. Let's throw out of the discussion everything that we do agree on so that all that will be left is what we don't agree on. I agree that anything we do is as filthy rags. I agree that our salvation is through the grace of God and the death of Christ. I am as worthless as dog spit. (You don't have to agree with that one too fast. :-)) I agree that it is only Christs blood that makes me look any better than that to God. I agree that all our "works" are worthless. If you agree with the above then we can't use them as an answer in our discussion, because of course these are not our points of disagreement. So where DO we disagree? I think I found the clue when you wrote: "And, yes, you can find many texts that exhort us to good works. But that is not the source of our salvation--it is the RESULT thereof. It is an imperfect work and it differs from person to person. We are told many times, you are saved, therefore do this or do that. But the "this and that" is not our salvation." This is it: "But that is not the source of our salvation--it is the RESULT thereof." When I have said there is good work as compared to bad, I DON'T and DIDN'T mean we had to do them for our salvation, if it sounded that way I am sorry. This is the danger of "catch" words, words that have come to mean a whole phrase and not just a word, and sometimes more than one phrase at that! The phrases of "works": The work that I HAVE to do to be saved. The work that I do BECAUSE I am saved. As you can see they are very different, and when I say "works" without an explanation it is up for grabs as to which one you think I mean. If you pick the wrong one then that changes what I am saying. And there we go, you on one side, me on the other, with no way to come to the center because we are both right. What I have just said about "catch" words is what I was trying to say when I started to talk about "works" on this thread. There is more that I want to say but don't have time now. Patti what do you think, do I have it figured out? I hope so----George | ||
| Patti |
George, Let me make this very clear: I think you are much more valuable than dog spit! Furthermore, I think you are right on! God bless. Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Even I was impressed with George's post! ;-)) I asked him what he ate last night to create such wisdom. He said: Smoked hotdogs and watermelon!!! EEE-Yuk! Maryann | ||
| A visitor |
Hi Pattie, I like what your saying. I'm trying to get it through my head. Yes, by saying that a changed life is salvation or the Holy spirit, we are still not trusting only in Jesus work by faith. The Holy spirit and a changed life is the result of salvation. But what about someone like my Dad who has got a serious drinking problem. It seems it has always stood in the way. The Bible says that drunkards won't go to heaven. How does it all fit? Thanks | ||
| Patti |
Welcome, Visitor! Please do not think that I think that I have all the answers. In fact, the only thing I know for sure is that Jesus' life and death is totally sufficient for our salvation. The same Bible that says drunkards won't go to heaven also says that those who hate or get angry are guilty of murder. The only difference is that one is more visible than the other. My point is that we are all sinners saved only by the grace (mercy) of God. We will struggle with our sinful natures as long as we live. I happen to think (personally) that how we treat others is more important than anything we could do to ourselves. The Good News: When we believe in Jesus Christ, His righteousness covers us completely, no matter how many overt or intrinsic sins we have in our lives. We are *righteous* only by faith, not in ourselves. Whereas we try to reflect the holiness of our Lord in our exterior lives, only perfect obedience to all of God's commands will suffice--right down to our thoughts and motives. And this we have by believing that Jesus Christ, and He alone, is worthy, that His grace is indeed sufficient for our complete salvation. I can understand your having a bit of problem "putting it all together." It is a very difficult thing, when one has been raised in a legalistic setting, to totally let go of the notion that we have any control over our salvation and to leave it all in Christ's hands. But it is the truth. And it is the most liberating thing that can happen to us on the earth. Not only are free from having to work to save ourselves, we are also free to accept our neighbors as God has accepted us--just as we are in Jesus Christ alone. Thank you for your inspiration. Your words are a blessing to me. Feel free to write me privately if you wish, but your words are very edifying to all of us here. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
What a great discussion! I believe that Patti, George, and Max are right: the only thing necessary for salvation is our acceptance Christ's completed work. Once we're saved, the indwelling Holy Spirit changes us, but none of us will look the same. Only God knows what obstacles we harbor deep inside ourselves. Only God knows how he needs to mold us. But this "molding" and "changing" is not part of being saved. It's the result of being saved! The Holy Spirit changing us is not our salvation; Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection are the stuff of our salvation. The Holy Spirit is our seal and our gift AFTER we accept salvation! Visitor: I don't have any idea where your father stands with God. But the good news is that he can be saved before he quits drinking. Paul says God redeemed us "while we were yet sinners". But God doesn't leave us to flounder in our sins once we're saved. His Spirit works with us to make us new from the inside out. Once we're saved, we're eternally connected to God via the Holy Spirit in us. Our souls come alive. If a person fails to change, we fellow humans can't absolutely say for sure that the unchanging person did not really accept Jesus. But God does confront us over and over with His promptings to submit everything to him. I have a hard time imagining that someone who is truly born againósomeone who truly accepts the gift of Jesus and receives the Spirit into his soulócan actually continue to resist the love of God that points out the need to change. Praising God for his faithfulness and LIFE, Cclleen | ||
| Max |
Hi Maryann, Agree with what you wrote: ^^ All they did was because they were saved NOT to be saved. ^^ But I take the dynamic one step further: Good works are not only done from the vantage ground of being saved, though that is certainly true. They are also done -- and infinitely more importantly so -- because they are the INEVITABLE fruits of the Spirit. Jesus said a good tree CANNOT bear evil fruit, and an evil tree CANNOT bear good fruit. The "filthy rags" I offer up to God as my "good works" due to being saved in Christ are considered by God to be "good fruit" and not evil. And the "stellar performances" that latter-day Pharisees offer up in order to be saved are considered by God to be "evil fruit" and not good. God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours even as the heavens are higher than the earth. Thanks, Maryann, for your most precious contributions to this website. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Dear Visitor, You wrote, ^^ But what about someone like my Dad who has got a serious drinking problem. It seems it has always stood in the way. The Bible says that drunkards won't go to heaven. How does it all fit? ^^ Yes, the Bible says that drunkards do not go into heaven. But the Bible (Matthew 21:31-32 NIV) also says this: ^^ Jesus said to them [CHIEF PRIESTS AND ELDERS OF THE TEMPLE], "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors [thieves and extortioners] and the prostitutes are entering [present tense, not future] the kingdom of God AHEAD of you. For John [Baptist] came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. ^^ Now YOU tell ME how it all fits. And after you tell me, then tell your dad, because then you will know! And so will he. Under the power of real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Max wrote: The "filthy rags" I offer up to God as my "good works" due to being saved in Christ are considered by God to be "good fruit" and not evil. This is another place that we part ways. We are only considered righteous IN CHRIST and not in ourselves. Our works are never considered "good" by God. We have no hope except to be completely covered by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Max, this is the CONVERTED Paul speaking: 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Our only hope is the grace--the totally unmerited favor of God to sinful man--of God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ. I am not saying your theology is from hell and you are, therefore, also (as I have been told by many SDAs!). It may seem a minute difference to you, but for me it means all the world. We do not look to ourselves for any kind of evidence of our salvation; we focus solely on the unrepeatable and totally sufficient salvific work of Jesus Christ. Anything less (anything in us) is filthy rags. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, The converted Paul you quoted was only admitting to his readers that his best efforts were only "filthy rags." The text says nothing about how GOD considers Paul's "filthy rags." More later. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti again, You quoted extensively from the highly revealing text of Romans 7. However, Romans seven poses a question which Paul answers in Romans 8. The question in Romans 7 is this: If our deeds after accepting Christ is still only filthy rags, then how can we claim to have changed lives? The answer in Romans 8:1 NIV is ìThere is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." And the rest of chapter 8 goes on to explain how. And remember, these Romans are every bit as converted as Paul is (Romans 1:6-7). Here is an excerpt (Romans 8:5-17 NIV): ^^ Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to Godís law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are CONTROLLED NOT BY THE SINFUL NATURE but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Therefore, brothers we have an OBLIGATION ñ but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, YOU WILL DIE; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH THE MISDEEDS of the body, you will live, because those who are let by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ìAbba, Father.î The Spirit himself TESTIFIES WITH OUR SPIRIT that we are Godís children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs ñ heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. ^^ Patti, this is real grace in action. It is bogus grace that confuses the ìfilthy ragsî of the saved with the îfilthy ragsî of the unsaved. Real grace changes lives for the better. Bogus grace changes nothing. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
The difference between your definition of "grace" and the way I perceive grace is exactly the difference between the RC doctrine and the Reformers. The RCC defines grace not merely God's mercy and forgiveness for unworthy sinners but also as the power of God in the believer that makes him able to present works acceptable to God ("infused grace"). This is very common in Christendom as a whole, not just in the RCC today. And it is also the SDA perspective. The Reformed view of grace is the mercy of God alone. There it is for what it is worth. The difference may seem to be merely semantics, but it is basic to one's understanding of salvation, and upon whom we focus our attention. Also, I wish you would not speak of "bogus" grace. Grace is an attribute of God, not of ourselves, and is therefore not only not "bogus," but it is perfect and holy and just. | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about how the Reformers viewed grace. Neither Luther nor Calvin nor any of the other major Reformers ever taught that God's grace ever allows the redeemed sinner to do just as he pleases. Can you show me even one Scripture that allows such? Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Max, In all fairness and with all due respect, you are putting words in my mouth. Patti | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, Forgive me if I have done so. It certainly is not my intention to do that, God knows. But I have to make myself clear. And my following statement is not meant to put words into your mouth. It is only to elicit from Scripture what is actually there. Letís listen to Paul (Romans 3:5-8 NIV): ^^ But if our unrighteousness brings out Godís righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, ìIf my falsehood enhances Godís truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?î Why not say ñ as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say ñ ìLet us do evil that good may result?î Their condemnation is deserved. ^^ Bogus grace is a heresy Paul was fighting right here in this text. People were saying that as grace-redeemed Christians they were free to do anything they pleased. They even went so far as to say, ìLet us do evil that good may result.î and attributing their ideas to Paul. Paul calls it by its right name: Slander. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Bruce H |
Patti ----Bruce, I am not trying to be argumentative, but we are not saved by the work of the Holy Spirit IN US.--- This is in regard to my quote that We are SAVED WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT IDWELLS IN US. Patti I am sorry I did not make myself clear enough, let me try again (Boy this internet is hard). I am not saying that we are saved by the work of the Holy Spirit working in us. I am saying THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT INDWELLS US IS ETERNAL LIFE. So we have Gods eternal Spirit and this is why when God looks at us he see's his son period, works or no works. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Patti |
Good! Sorry to be touchy! Thanks for being patient with me! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Bruce H |
George You post 6/20 was great George. Patty, I did not think you were touchy or as we say on the net tappy. Ha ha. Bruce Heinrich B | ||
| Cindy |
Bruce, Thanks for the clarification on your post; I was wondering what you meant... I like how you wrote, "I am saying THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT INDWELLS US IS ETERNAL LIFE. So we have Gods eternal Spirit and this is why when God looks at us he see's his son period, works or no works." Blessings and joy to you, Bruce, Staying in His grace. Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, You said earier: "And the 'stellar performances' that latter-day Pharisees offer up in order to be saved are considered by God to be 'evil fruit' and not good." I'm sorry to correct such a descriptive description; "latter-day Pharisees", but I must: Latter-Age Farisees, (LAF). Maryann |
