| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Cindy! I am always blessed by your words. Truly, our hope has to rest on the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf SOLELY. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, We can disagree on what the learned Catholic authority attributed to Reformation theology. One thing is absolutely unassailable: Neither Luther nor Calvin ever taught that the grace-redeemed sinner gets to do whatever he pleases. That is bogus grace, and it must not be allowed to pass for anything else. For us to allow that idea to exist as the positon of this website is absolutely unacceptable. This is serious business. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Max wrote: "One thing is absolutely unassailable: Neither Luther nor Calvin ever taught that the grace-redeemed sinner gets to do whatever he pleases." I never said they did. But I can give you some Luther quotes that would curl your toes! "That is bogus grace, and it must not be allowed to pass for anything else. For us to allow that idea to exist as the positon of this website is absolutely unacceptable." Max, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said what you are accusing me of... It is almost ironic. As I said above, this is exactly what the Reformation was all about. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I'm waiting for the "toe curlers". This has been interesting;-)) Maryann | ||
| Max |
Dear Patti, You may be able to recite some quotes from Luther that would curl my toes, but you will never be able to recite any that prove Luther ever tought that the redeemed sinner can do as he pleases. This is bogus grace. I am not putting words into your mouth. I am not saying that you are teaching bogus grace. I don't know what you are teaching. You are free to state exactly what you are teaching. I'm only here to state that neither the Reformers nor Scripture teaches bogus grace. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
"I am not putting words into your mouth. I am not saying that you are teaching bogus grace." Then how come every time I mention salvation by grace alone, you follow up with a statement of "Bogus grace" like a sort of disclaimer? | ||
| Max |
Patti, I am taking a degree of responsibility for not allowing people who read this website to report that formeradventist.com is teaching a kind of grace that allows the redeemed sinner to do as he pleases. That is not putting words into your mouth. You are still free to state a position that says you do not teach that the redeemed sinner may do just as he pleases. -Max | ||
| Cindy |
Hi everyone, My son finished his computer time so I had to get back on a little bit more! Wasn't it Martin Luther who said, "sin boldly!"? Of course, I can't verify that statement or in what context he may have said it. We have the set of all of Luther's sermons; but unfortunately, they are in storage right now. Because of His costly but free grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
TOE CURLER -- For Maryann Luther, Letter to Melanchthon, 1521 If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. | ||
| Patti |
Yes, Cindy, that "Sin boldly!" quotation is often used by Catholics to prove that Luther was "of the devil." I am looking for it. I know my mother has it. I will post it as soon as I find it. What do you think of the one I just posted? Pretty tough stuff, huh? | ||
| Max |
Patti, I am familiar with that quote. I'm also familiar witht he fact that Roman Catholics have used it against Luther. But if you will read it carefully, you will see that Luther is NOT teaching that Melanchthon is free "to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." He is saying that even IF one should do so, God's grace can still save. Luther never taught that the redeemed sinner is free to do as he pleases. Luther is not teaching bogus grace here or anywhere. -- Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, I'm sure you will find that the "Sin boldly!" quote is also removed by Roman Catholics from the context of Luther's larger teaching. We discussed his "Sin boldly!" quote in seminary extensively. Be careful not to misinterpret Luther. --Max | ||
| Patti |
Max, Perhaps you are reading a different passage than I am. The words are clear and they are in front of our noses. "BE A SINNER, and LET YOUR SINS BE STRONG, but LET YOUR TRUST IN CHRIST BE STRONGER, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." I don't need to explain them one way or another, as I no more depend upon Luther's words than on Ellen's. I am not going to reiterate. The words speak clearly for themselves and all can read them. | ||
| Max |
Patti, Yes, and I studied that quote in seminary also. Again, it is always being taken out of context by someone. Most often Catholics, who at the time of the Reformation got a tremendous amount of mileage out of misinterpreting Luther. When Luther says, "Let your trust in Christ be stronger," he is saying that Christ can overcome your strong sinning. He is not teaching the bogus grace that Catholics -- not all -- have so often attributed to him. Be careful not to agree with the Catholics about Luther. Repeat, Luther NEVER teaches that the redeemed sinner can do just as he pleases. --Max | ||
| Patti |
GOOD WORKS Our "good works" or "merits" are actually God's gifts or graces. Faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works. There are three stages of the justificational process; the preparatory stage, the transition from death to life, and the living of a Christian life. Catholics believe that true faith will express itself in a person's "works" - the way the person actually lives. God commands and expects His people to persevere in "good works," just as He expects them to persevere in faith. Not because it is our faith or works that save us, but simply because this is the way that God has ordained for each person to cooperate with His plan of salvation. The Council of Trent clearly stated that of the two (faith and works), faith was the primary means of accepting salvation ("the beginning of human salvation" from our perspective). "Good works" or charity is also important for salvation, but as a "fruit" of genuine faith. We do not have an infallible assurance of salvation. Like Paul tells the Philippians, we should be working out our own salvation "with fear and trembling". James is not talking about "faith and justification in the sight of men", but rather he is talking about "faith and justification in the sight of God". Our faith and our works are wrought not by our own righteousness apart from Christ, but they are God's gifts of grace in us. Therefore, we are NOT justified by "Faith Alone", but rather we are justified by "Grace Alone". No one can merit the initial grace that is at the origin of conversion. We respond to this initial grace through faith working in love (formed by charity). "Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted to us." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1991) "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2013) All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Each of us must use our intellect and free will to respond to God's free gift of grace, striving always to live a life of faith working in love. ==================== Written by Catholic defender Steve Clifford URL: http://transporter.com/apologia/sc_response.html | ||
| Cindy |
Patti, I really like that quote! Of course, the true preaching of the gospel will often bring about misunderstandings that we are preaching a grace that tells sinners to continue and abound in sin... And notice,too, that Luther says. " Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." To me, He is acknowledging the fact that sin permeates our very nature and life, and yet by saying to let your trust in Christ be stronger!! Luther is continually focusing back on the costly grace of Christ and HIS perfect victory over sin. Where else can we get the motivation (and joy!) to follow Him with abandonment!! Let Him change us --in His own time! I love the quote from Martin Lloyd Jones who, at 80+ years of age, after preaching and teaching for many, many years, said, "I am just discovering what the Grace of God is all about!" Jesus's surpassing grace is really something to keep us interested in forever, isn't it? I think this other quote of Jones really applies to this discussion tonight! He starts out with Romans where Paul says, "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"... Martin Lloyd Jones writes: "The true preaching of the gospel of salvation by Grace Alone always leads to the possibility of this charge being brought against it. This is a very good test of gospel preaching... If a man preaches justification by works, not one would ever raise this question. No one who preaches in that strain would be liable to this misunderstanding." And then, I love this part..." there is a kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the doctrine of salvation!" Resting in His dangerous grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Patti, It's all well and good to quote Roman Catholic apologists on grace and works. But that has no effect on the rightness or wrongness of what real grace is. Only Scripture can do that. Scripture, please. Thanks, Max. | ||
| Patti |
Martin Luther, in The Bondage of the Will (1525) states: "Whatever happens, happens according to the irreversible decrees of God. Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil in us as of what is good, and as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate" (cited from O'Hare, Patrick, The Facts About Luther, Rockford, IL: TAN Books, rev. ed., 1987 {orig. Cincinnati: 1916}, pp.266-267). In his commentary on Psalm 51, Luther informs us that man "is a bad tree and cannot produce good fruit, a dunghill and can only exhale foul odors. He is so thoroughly corrupted that it is absolutely impossible for him to produce good actions. Sin is his nature; he cannot help committing it. Man may do his best to do good, still his every action is unavoidably bad; he commits sin as often as he draws his breath" (O'Hare, ibid., p.100). John Calvin sets forth essentially the same teaching in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (1559 ed.), Book II, ch. 2, sec. 26-27; ch. 3, sec. 1-7; ch. 4, sec. 1-5. Huldreich Zwingli, a third major Protestant Reformer, concurs also, in his work, On Providence: "God leads and forces man into evil . . . The creature . . . although acting involuntarily under the divine guidance, sins" (O'Hare, ibid., pp.271-272). God's greatness and supremacy does not consign man to virtual worthlessness, as in classic Protestantism, but rather, man, created in God's image, is raised to even greater heights by virtue of Christ's Incarnation. For example, 2 Peter 1:4 speaks of human beings becoming "partakers of the divine nature." The Christian is being redeemed on the earth and (assuming perseverance) is destined for glorification in heaven. Thus, he is not now, nor will he ever be, a "dunghill." URL: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ50.HTM | ||
| Max |
Patti, You quoted Luther: ^^ Whatever happens, happens according to the irreversible decrees of God. Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil in us as of what is good, and as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does. ^^ Notice that Luther is talking about the sovereignty of God here. In Luther, God being the author of evil resulted from his study of Scripture. For example, there are a great number of texts in the Old Testament that assume and, in some cases even state outright, that God is the author of evil. For example, An evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, and he sought to slay David. But this is a judgment of God upon Saul. It is not an excuse for Saul to kill David and then enjoy eternal life! And so Luther would say that if you publicly accepted the grace of God, and then God caused you to murder someone, then God was just judging you and showing you that you never were the beneficiary of real grace in the first place. Luther was NOT teaching that the courts of heaven above would be crowded with unrepentant murderers! Nor can this website be allowed to be perceived as teaching that. If that were to happen, our influence for good would be destroyed. And the Roman Catholics tried mightily to pin just such a badge on Luther. Luckily they didn't succeed. Thanks for bringing that quote out. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I have just two questions? And I'm dead serious! How in the world do you have the time to do all this research? Where in the world do you find all this? My goodness gracious sakes alive, as Mom would say! Maryann |
